Are Ireland teams becoming too predictable?

anonymous_joe

Before anyone starts, where is this coming from?

I was just reading a few threads here, and after many a discussion with friends, I've noticed it's not that difficult to predict an Irish team.

First things first, and before it's said by umpteen people here - I know that Ireland has a small pool of players, and generally, we pick the best players, and no-one will deny that.

But here's the problem, under the reign of Steady Eddie, loyalty to players was unwavering. But that served to make Irish teams very predictable. Think of it this way - if David Wallace is left on the bench for a game against a good but not top team, then you've an impact sub who could change the dynamic in any of the back row positions as players tire. Why don't we ever do things like that?

Again, Wallace is merely an example, but I really do wonder if we're far too predictable. I could predict an Irish team more easily than a Welsh or Scottish, and they're not much bigger in terms of player pools. (In fact, Scotland's is significantly smaller.)

Anyone else agree, or just think I'm being an ass? :pac:

Amazotheamazing

We don't have the players, Munster won't provide ireland withe centres, Leinster won't provide Ireland with props. We are limiting our national team by loading our provincial teams with imports.

Look at Munster's reserve props, Hurley, Ryan and McGovern. All would walk on to any of the other provinces first team (if they were picking Irish players) but they are stagnating in Munster, same with Leinster and backs.

Jigsaw

Have to say it is probably down to lack of player pool. I reckon that the Welsh have a much larger player pool as do the English, although the Scottish would probably have a smaller player pool and this is probably borne out in results. It is a tough call. Say David Wallace is left on the bench and Ireland lose, then the coach is accused of not fielding the strongest team and is slated. Vice versa, and the coach is accused of not being innovative.

I do feel that preparations ought to be made with a view to "peaking" at major tournaments though. Tbh, does it really matter a damn if we lose to Australia or not? Not saying send out a pile of youngsters to be lambs to the slaughter but it should certainly be experimental, with a view to blooding players, ready for World Cup 2011. Six Nations tournaments between now and then should indicate progress even if it starts from a low point of defeats.

Hopefully Kidney will mix things up a bit. I'd love the 4 provinces to work together really hard and do everything they can to contribute towards a world beating team, and in relation to another thread in this forum, I think getting players young would be very good, so as to expose them to the rigours and training practices of professional rugby as early as possible. Balls to schools as far as I am concerned. Let them play their rugby but it should all be about the greater good. The cream of the crop ought to be scouted from the best schools in Ireland from all four provinces and intensively trained to the pinnacle of rugby.

These are just my thoughts and I am no crazy rugby afficionado so I would not suggest for one second that what I have said is the answer, but it seems that way to me.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

We don't have the players, Munster won't provide ireland withe centres, Leinster won't provide Ireland with props. We are limiting our national team by loading our provincial teams with imports.

Look at Munster's reserve props, Hurley, Ryan and McGovern. All would walk on to any of the other provinces first team (if they were picking Irish players) but they are stagnating in Munster, same with Leinster and backs.

I know we don;t really have the players, but what bugs me is how secure a player's position becomes.

Look at Tommy Bowe, I'm not one of his detractors, but he is basically guarenteed a spot in the team, with no competition. Now I'm not saying he should be dropped every game, but if, once in a blue moon, you put Kearney or Fitzgerald on the wing (merely examples) and then someone like Murphy or even Hurley at full back, you might catch a team by surprise.

Look at how Wales always have the versatility of two different half backs for each spot. You're never sure which pair you'll meet.

Stev_o

We have two other provinces in Ireland Connaught and Ulster use them or loose them lads. Take a leaf from the other Unions and bloody pick players on the basis of how good they are not from where they play

tHE vAGGABOND

We have two other provinces in Ireland Connaught and Ulster use them or loose them lads. Take a leaf from the other Unions and bloody pick players on the basis of how good they are not from where they play

eh...we do!

Connaught were last in magners league...

Ulster were second last...

When Ulster were in form about 18 months ago, they had 6 or 7 members of the Irish squad, and all manner of young lads coming up thru ranks in the A team etc.

If they are in terrible form and loosing to terrible Scottish and welsh sides they are no use to us in the national team! [Unless we are picking them as part of some good Friday agreement deal, with minimum number of ulster players in squad as some would say]

Ulster seem to have lost the spine of their team to english clubs, interesting to see how those players do over there [how long it takes to hype them into the best things ever, as every single irish player over there seems to be!!!], and indeed who ulster get to replace them.

Podge_irl

Jigsaw wrote: »

I do feel that preparations ought to be made with a view to "peaking" at major tournaments though. Tbh, does it really matter a damn if we lose to Australia or not? Not saying send out a pile of youngsters to be lambs to the slaughter but it should certainly be experimental, with a view to blooding players, ready for World Cup 2011. Six Nations tournaments between now and then should indicate progress even if it starts from a low point of defeats.

No no no no no! Give me a couple 6 Nations and consistent test match victories over a good showing at a world cup any day. Peaking for a WC is stupid - particularly when the whole thing can be ruined by one dodgy game. I despise the devaluation of test matches that is currently going on.

Look at Tommy Bowe, I'm not one of his detractors, but he is basically guarenteed a spot in the team, with no competition. Now I'm not saying he should be dropped every game, but if, once in a blue moon, you put Kearney or Fitzgerald on the wing (merely examples) and then someone like Murphy or even Hurley at full back, you might catch a team by surprise.

The problem with that is that you are losing something rather then just shifting resources. Murphy has consistently underperformed at FB, while Hurley has done nothing to show he is ready for international level. Kearney has similarly done nothing to suggest he is in any way a better winger then Bowe - I would quite happily say he is slightly worse. Some changes do happen when the difference between players is small, e.g. Best/Flannery. There should probably be a small bit more rotation in the back-row, but there are few places where changing the player would not incur a significant drop in quality.

Sparky14

Unless we improve our player base were only going to be able to do this, although even when we do have options in a position Ireland have traditionally been slow to rotate even with Humphries and O'Gara there wud never change unless there was an injury or a dramatic loss of form. Even as a kid watching rugby I used to hear with alarming frequency that "the irish team was easier to get into than to get out of".

However this usually isn't much of an issue as has already been mentioned the Irish player pool is too small to have effective competition. Which is obviously a huge weakness of the Irish rugby.

anonymous_joe

I can't link it because I don't have access to the IT online on this computer, but Gerry Thornley actually talks about this issue in his column...

And while I know we have a small player pool, we still underuse it. Add to that, rotation for rotation's sake has a point in small doses. It keeps players fresh and on their toes for one thing.

themont85

Ye have to agree with whats been said. We do certaintly have depth in certan positions i.e at the last WC we were performing badly we needed a change of players but Eddie didn't trust anybody out of his 18-20 sphere of thought. We had the likes of Gleeson, Quinlan and Heaslip rotting of the pitch when they could have changed something. All of those 3 are more than up to standard. Of course we're short in centres and fly halves but thats as much our fault as not having the players. O'Sullivan waited one year before the WC to try Wallace at out half. Against the likes of Pacific Islands, 2 dud internationals in Argentina and a few camio 2 minutes are usless to develop players. I think our main problem is the obsession with beating the SH teams especially the All Blacks. I think South Africa our the ideal model for developing a squad they don't go ott like the All blacks or France who just become unsure at critical moments in their pivotal game every four years.