Punishments for sick absences

eman66

A memo is to be circulated at the office regarding the
consequences of being absent from work due to illness.

It basically introduces new rules stating that, depending on the number
of days absent, a deduction is made from the monthly bonus of the
employee. This is in addition to any deductions for the time not worked.

It's based on a sliding scale, e.g. one day absent in the month = 30%
deduction, 2 days absent = 45% deduction, up to 5+ days = 100% deduction.
If no bonus is due for the month the sick days carry over to the following
month(s) until such time as the penaly has been paid.

The bonus is very important here. All staff start on the minimum wage.
(When the minimum wage was introduced most of the staff had to be
brought up to this rate). Staff turnover was a serious problem (still is
to a certain extent) and after trying several "ideas" it was decided to
introduce a bonus scheme. This has worked somewhat and is very
important in making the job worthwhile.

About 90% of the staff have no company sick pay entitlement,
about 10% have 5 days per annum.

I suppose they can probably do this, or can they?

AARRRGH

Well, assuming the bonus is based on "performance" I assume they could include punctuality as a factor...

Seems a bit harsh.

Are people in your office taking the piss when it comes to sickies?

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

i'm fairly certain this is wrong. I would email the memo you received to NERA and get their opinion:

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/

seamus

Really depends on the nature of the bonus and what the employees' contracts say.

If the bonus isn't guaranteed (i.e. is at the employer's discretion) or is not specified in the contract, then you have no comeback.

If on the other hand, the bonus has some sort of status in your contract (i.e. guaranteed X% of sales) then any amendment to that bonus is a change in contract, which cannot be enforced without agreement from the employee.

You are not entitled to be paid for sick days, so taking those days directly from the pay packet is perfectly legal.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

i didn't realise that sick leave wasn't an entitlement. But, see from NERA that this is the case. That's quite bad really...

seamus

Roundtower2 wrote: »

i didn't realise that sick leave wasn't an entitlement. But, see from NERA that this is the case. That's quite bad really...

Not really. After three days of sick leave you are entitled to claim benefit from the Government.

The main problem is that any old excuse can be used to take sick leave and most doctors will give sick certs for the most erroneous of conditions (how do you prove that someone isn't suffering from stress?).
If employers were forced to pay employees for time off sick, they would lose billions per year to dodgy employees.

AARRRGH

I used to look after HR issues in an old job of mine...

A couple of people in the office were seriously taking the piss when it came to sick leave. We decided the only way to combat this was to stop paying for sick leave. Basically, a few spas ruined it for everyone.

I reckon there is something similar going on with the OP.

eman66

There isn't a serious problem with staff taking sickies. It's too tight a ship for that. I just included the sick leave entitlements in case it affected anything. I don't think anybody expects to be paid if they're not at work. However, they are upset that this could mean such drastic cuts to the bonus. It an entirely performance/sales related bonus. The targets that trigger the bonus are hard to reach, and are not reached every month.

Maybe the staff who do have the 5 days (as per their contract) could be entitled to be excluded from this until they have used their days.

I was wondering how far they can go, really. I will see what NERA has to say, thanks for the link, but it looks like legally they can do this.

shoegirl

A lot of people dont get bonuses or paid overtime in the first place so count yourself lucky to have it at all.

IzzyWizzy

I used to work in a call centre and we got bonuses up to 160 euro every 2 weeks, except it was nearly impossible to get. They depended on timekeeping, call quality, and so on. Well, if you were off sick even one day, as well as not getting paid for that day, you'd lose your whole bonus. It seemed grossly unfair to me - you can't help being sick every now and then - but that's how it was.

Nody

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

It seemed grossly unfair to me - you can't help being sick every now and then - but that's how it was.

A bonus is not a guarantee, it is the company paying extra because you've done a outstanding job and is purely optional on part of the company. If you are going sick multiple times over a year to the level you can't get into work I'd seriously be looking at a new GP to answer why, not complain that the company don't pay a bonus to someone who's not in work.

PurpleBerry

Personally I do think it's potentally a good idea. What I would prefer is if you get 3 sick days within a calendar a year and then after that the deductions start.

Most people have taken a sick day or two and been genuine, but I'm sure we've all met a few people who take advantage. This would be a good scheme to stop them.

Claire121

A bonus is not a guarantee, it is the company paying extra because you've done a outstanding job and is purely optional on part of the company. If you are going sick multiple times over a year to the level you can't get into work I'd seriously be looking at a new GP to answer why, not complain that the company don't pay a bonus to someone who's not in work.

Eh, I take it you've never worked in a call centre? The call centre bonus system is a totally different matter. It kind of IS part of your salary - the salary quoted on job websites usually includes the bonus. You get it if you call quality, time online and so on are outstanding. That means all your calls are the perfect length, you're never so much as 30 seconds late for work or back from a break etc, and that the person scoring the calls couldn't fault your performance. It\s pretty hard to get at the best of times in some places. If you have one day off sick, you totally lose the bonus for that fortnight. So even if everything else was perfect, the fact you were sick for one day means you get nothing. That's not fair, IMO. Is losing a day's pay not enough of an incentive not to fake sickies? It must be nice to be Superman and never have a day off. In the real world, people have appointments to attend, get flu, get stomach bugs. I don't even have any serious health problems and I had to go to the hospital twice this year. I suggest you inform yourself of how call centres operate before making comments like that. It's nothing like an office job where you're salaried and maybe get a few grand before Christmas as an extra. People depend on those bonuses to make up their paycheck.

shayser

Claire121 wrote: »

Eh, I take it you've never worked in a call centre? The call centre bonus system is a totally different matter. It kind of IS part of your salary - the salary quoted on job websites usually includes the bonus. You get it if you call quality, time online and so on are outstanding. That means all your calls are the perfect length, you're never so much as 30 seconds late for work or back from a break etc, and that the person scoring the calls couldn't fault your performance. It\s pretty hard to get at the best of times in some places. If you have one day off sick, you totally lose the bonus for that fortnight. So even if everything else was perfect, the fact you were sick for one day means you get nothing. That's not fair, IMO. Is losing a day's pay not enough of an incentive not to fake sickies? It must be nice to be Superman and never have a day off. In the real world, people have appointments to attend, get flu, get stomach bugs. I don't even have any serious health problems and I had to go to the hospital twice this year. I suggest you inform yourself of how call centres operate before making comments like that. It's nothing like an office job where you're salaried and maybe get a few grand before Christmas as an extra. People depend on those bonuses to make up their paycheck.

Exactly my experience of call centres. Mental sweatshops. Eventually, we will see legislation such as was needed to tackle the problems of physical sweatshops. A fair and equal trade of labour for wages? If a persons talent is not easily identifiable or converted into profit, then there's always the call centre.

OP, what your company is doing is disgusting but unfortunately not surprising in the least. Instead of taking the time and effort to deal with a problem of a staff member who lies about being sick , it's much more economical to whack the whole herd.

Nody

Claire121 wrote: »

Eh, I take it you've never worked in a call centre?

Why yes I have, guess that simply proves the point of assumptions. I no longer work in one but I've done my time in one of the Dublin call centres.

The call centre bonus system is a totally different matter. It kind of IS part of your salary - the salary quoted on job websites usually includes the bonus.

So because a salary is quouted in an add with the bonus you should be entitled to it? I guess you never seen adds for sales people then...

You get it if you call quality, time online and so on are outstanding. That means all your calls are the perfect length, you're never so much as 30 seconds late for work or back from a break etc, and that the person scoring the calls couldn't fault your performance. It\s pretty hard to get at the best of times in some places.

And it can be as easy as showing up on time in other places, as always it depends on the centre and how the bonus is structured. Having said that ANYONE who assumes that because there is a bonus in a job that they will get it is stupid.

That's not fair, IMO.

Since when did a company have to take into account what you believe is fair? Is it fair that the manager makes twice the money you did in a call centre? Is it fair the site manager makes five times the money? If you sign the dotted line and you expect the bonus then yes, you'll have to keep in mind what loops to jump through; fair has nothing to do with it though.

Is losing a day's pay not enough of an incentive not to fake sickies? It must be nice to be Superman and never have a day off. In the real world, people have appointments to attend, get flu, get stomach bugs.

And why should a company pay you for attending appointments or give you a bonus for it when you are not in? Heck I'm suprised that you're not complaining about not getting a bonus while on holidays as well, after all you have to take it legally and all. And to answer your question, no, it is not, and the reason can be seen in most threads where you see people talk about people pulling sickes left, right and centre and how it affects the team etc.

I don't even have any serious health problems and I had to go to the hospital twice this year. I suggest you inform yourself of how call centres operate before making comments like that. It's nothing like an office job where you're salaried and maybe get a few grand before Christmas as an extra. People depend on those bonuses to make up their paycheck.

Aah once again the nice assumptions popping up. Let me ask you where you kidnapped to your call centre? You signed the dotted line, you knew the base salary and the bonus amount AND the requirements for the bonus. If you disagreed then why sign up for the gig?

The bonus is just that, a bonus, it is not a gurantee or part of your base salary. If you depend on the bonus to come through quite frankly you're going to have it come back and bite your behind in the end and should seek alternate line of work.

AARRRGH

I think people are confusing commission with bonus.

Main Entry: com·mis·sion: a fee paid to an agent or employee for transacting a piece of business or performing a service; especially : a percentage of the money received from a total paid to the agent responsible for the business

Main Entry: bo·nus: something in addition to what is expected or strictly due, for example, money or an equivalent given in addition to an employee's usual compensation

Sales people earn commission for transacting a piece of business.

Call centre staff might get a bonus as an addition to what is expected or strictly due.

The sales person will still get his commission if he's fired. The call centre person will not get their bonus if they're fired.

They're different.

Moral of the story: don't rely on your bonus as part of your salary.

Claire121

Maybe I just worked in a particularly bad call centre, because no, it was NOT made clear that the bonus was not part of the salary until after we started. There was no mention of a bonus anywhere. Someone tried to sue them since and I've noticed now they are quoting the salary as XXX (inc bonus).

Where on earth did I say you should be entitled to a bonus for nothing? I said it was unfair that you automatically lose the bonus for those two weeks if you're sick one day. If you're sick 4 days in a year, on separate occasions, that's 2 months of bonus lost. Do you really think 4 sick days in a year is excessive? There's absolutely no sick pay and holidays have to be booked about a year in advance, so what if you need to go to the hospital or something? You're already losing a day's pay, and then you're losing your chance at any of the bonus, despite the fact you might have done a brilliant job the other 9 days. The comparison to sales is stupid because it's really making MY point. If you have a day off in sales you lose pay/commission for that day but you can make it up on the other days.

I never said I relied on the bonus, I said I think it's incredibly unfair when the base salary is that low (it was a fairly skilled job as well) and the bonus is so hard to achieve. In this job you really needed to be brilliant to get it, not just show up. And even then, one day off, and you've lost it. Other people with kids and so on did really rely on it to make up their pay - maybe they couldn't get anything else at 50+? You're grabbing at straws now to make a point. It's one thing when people are taking the p*ss and pulling sickies left, right and centre, but it's not right to assume everyone who takes a day off is faking it. Why not allow a certain number of 'sick days', say 3 or 4 a year, where your bonus is not affected? That would most likely get a better performance from the employees. Think about it, if someone is off sick on a Monday, are they going to slog their guts out the rest of the week knowing they're getting zero bonus? It doesn't make sense for anyone.

mickoneill30

Claire121 wrote: »

Maybe I just worked in a particularly bad call centre, because no, it was NOT made clear that the bonus was not part of the salary until after we started.

The word bonus should have really made it clear that it wasn't part of your salary.

Your contract says your salary. That's what you get paid a week or a month. A bonus is, ehm what's the word, a bonus. I doesn't matter what is implied or said in interviews or job sites, it's what's in your contract that matters.

The bigger news for the guy above is that if the company starts having hard times it won't matter if you're sick or not, that bonus might disappear anyway.

A lot of people on this thread (including me) have worked in call centres. You spend your time there, you increase your skills and you move up. That's the way most people use them. None of us are looking back at them with fondness but they're handy to start you off.

Claire121

Some people don't have that much of a choice. I saw it as a temporary thing but a good few people at my job were middle aged and older, single parents etc who worked their asses off and depended on that bonus. It wasn't like a bunch of teenagers who messed around and then complained when they couldn't afford new shoes. I'm not an idiot, I know that's the way it is, but it's a really bad way to treat loyal, hardworking employees. Whoever said it was like a mental sweatshop was right. They ask so much of you and you get so little in return.

AARRRGH

I worked in a call centre for a while. Indeed, it was a ****ty job.

I was working there by choice though. I think if you stay in a job where you are treated badly or are unhappy, the only person you can blame is yourself...

Claire121

The point is not everyone has that much of a choice. This crowd were taking advantage of people they knew were unlikely to jack in it because of their age or the fact they needed to work late nights to accommodate the kids etc. I know it's legal but it's a horrible way to treat people who are just trying to earn an honest living.

AARRRGH

I agree with you completely, but your colleagues have still chosen to work there, i.e. they chose not to get an education/whatever so chose to have a lack of options.

I know life can be tough, and I'm not at all trying to knock the people you work with, but I do believe our life turns out the way we plan it.

As Roy Keane says: "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail".

Best of luck.

fret_wimp

Nody wrote:

Since when did a company have to take into account what you believe is fair?

Nody, i agree to an extent with your statements, but look at it like this, and i know this is an extreeme case, but before there was legislation denouncing sweat shops, would this apply? someone could say they believe its unfair to have to work 18 hour days in a stuffy or potentially hazardous envrionment at the age of 8 for a pittence. would you then say that the company doesnt have to take into consideration that the above scenarion is believed by me to be unfair?? If someone doesnt "believe" its unfair first, no action will ever get done to make it fair. what do you require so as its seen as unfair, 10 people to "believe" its unfair? 100 people??

Nody wrote:

Let me ask you where you kidnapped to your call centre? You signed the dotted line, you knew the base salary and the bonus amount AND the requirements for the bonus. If you disagreed then why sign up for the gig?

again, those folks in sweat shops, know the score, but perhaps they have no other choice. many people in this country are in jobs they dont like, but have no choice as the bills will keep comming in regardless of weather you quit your job or not. you are a lot like a battery hen in some of these places. you work work work work work, and when you are unable to work more due to the stress of the un realisitc targets, their rules remove any chance of a bonus and you just leave. they then replace you with another fresh faced employee who goes through the same scenarion only to leave again due to being disapointed as they worked their ass off and get nothing due to one lousy day where they got angry folks on the other end of the phone, or were sick for one day