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Are Irish Judges getting worse

  • 10-06-2008 8:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭


    Anyone else go WTF :mad: when they heard that a drugs dealer who having been caught red handed still pleaded not guilty when charged. Now by him pleading not guilty the state had all the expense of a trial, yet his driver who saved the state i.e you and me money by pleading guilty, got a two year longer sentence :confused: then the drug dealer who was found guilty by a jury.
    Now I may have watched too many 'Law and Orders' on TV but surely the whole idea of pleading guilty and saving us all the expence of a trial was that you got a reduced sentence.
    But no! another Irish Judge sends out the message, Plead not guilty and when even if you are found guilty guess what, you'll get a reduced sentence.


Comments

  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    The facts of the case warranted the sentence perhaps but hey, you read a newspaper report or something, you must know better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    What kind of drugs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,979 ✭✭✭445279.ie


    Have you a link to the case? Would like to see the whole picture before commenting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    Was it a publican? /stir


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,808 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Rb wrote: »
    What kind of drugs?
    Amphetamines

    Full story http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0610/hanleys.html

    Does seem a bit odd though that the driver got more.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Farmer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,979 ✭✭✭445279.ie


    The driver only pleaded guilty on the second day of the trial, hence little saving to the state in relation to prosecution.

    Maybe he had more previous convictions, therefore a longer sentence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Reg'stoy


    Maximilian wrote: »
    The facts of the case warranted the sentence perhaps but hey, you read a newspaper report or something, you must know better.

    Wow and people in the legal profession wonder why we the 'great unwashed' question their decisions. Please maximilian might you in a less condesending tone explain (you do after all secretly think you know better than me) how someone who's very trade causes death and hardship gets such a favourable sentence.

    Personally I couldn't care less about the hardships he's had to endure. In saying that I would imagine having to hand over 3 million to the cab would bum you out, but to get time off for it well that just takes the biscuit.


    http://www.rte.ie/aertel/117-02.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    Judge Anthony Kennedy said that Costello may feel aggrieved but that the sentence must be tailored to Hanley's circumstances.

    The court heard Hanley was in poor health mentally and physically and was still grieving for his 20-year-old son Brian who was stabbed to death in 2001.

    However, gardaí say Hanley was a significant drug dealer and was a key figure in the Ryan criminal gang, one of Limerick's feuding criminal gangs.

    He also managed to buy a farm for €190,000 in 1994 at Meelick in Co Clare after other prospective buyers received bullets in the post. He sold the farm in 2004 for over €3m.

    Hanley has not submitted a tax return since 1998 and is a target of the Criminal Assets Bureau.
    What a load of BS, the Judge should be forced to step down IMO. FFS Hanley is clearly a career criminal and so what if his son was stabbed to death, it was undoubtedly because he was running drugs for the father or as a vendetta against the father, if he was genuinely upset about it he'd stop dealing drugs and go make an honest living. Only way I can see someone making such a poor judgement as that is if Hanley has something over them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,969 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    farohar wrote: »
    What a load of BS, the Judge should be forced to step down IMO.

    If every judge was forced to step down after the public viewed something as unpopular then they'd be afraid to make any decisions.
    Trial by media?

    The DPP can appeal if they want, they probably won't


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    micmclo wrote: »
    If every judge was forced to step down after the public viewed something as unpopular then they'd be afraid to make any decisions.
    Trial by media?

    The DPP can appeal if they want, they probably won't

    It's not a case of it being unpopular, it's a case of making up clearly dishonest or deluded reasons to give a criminal a shorter sentence. If a boss used clearly dishonest or deluded reasons to get rid of a staff member he'd be sued for wrongful dismissal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭all the stars


    Personally,
    think the system is a joke. Prisons here need to be more like thai prisons - 80 in a cell for 20. sleeping on top of eachother. ****e food, no tv, radio, all that.
    I see it here locally, the same heads back to prison every few weeks after release, they have better Gym's, food etc. in there than out here.

    Also, worth mentioning, everyone should be glad im not a judge or everyone would fear commiting crime for what i'd do to them! :cool:


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    Wow and people in the legal profession wonder why we the 'great unwashed' question their decisions. Please maximilian might you in a less condesending tone explain (you do after all secretly think you know better than me) how someone who's very trade causes death and hardship gets such a favourable sentence.

    Personally I couldn't care less about the hardships he's had to endure. In saying that I would imagine having to hand over 3 million to the cab would bum you out, but to get time off for it well that just takes the biscuit.


    http://www.rte.ie/aertel/117-02.html

    There's no secret, I do know more than you about it. Its my job.

    The man got 10 years for God's sake. Could you imagine spending 10 years in prison? You seem to object to a judicial system that has the capability to show a degree of compassion, whether the less informed public believe it is warranted or not. What you seemingly would advocate is a less tolerant system. A crueler one.

    I have little sympathy for someone who peddles drugs but I don't want an arbitrary judicial system that punishes people according to public opinion.

    By all means you can opine that the sentence was too light but when the title of the thread is implying judges are "getting worse" then you deserve to get flak and condescension is entirely appropriate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,776 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Reg'stoy wrote: »
    Anyone else go WTF :mad: when they heard that a drugs dealer who having been caught red handed still pleaded not guilty when charged. Now by him pleading not guilty the state had all the expense of a trial, yet his driver who saved the state i.e you and me money by pleading guilty, got a two year longer sentence :confused: then the drug dealer who was found guilty by a jury.
    Now I may have watched too many 'Law and Orders' on TV but surely the whole idea of pleading guilty and saving us all the expence of a trial was that you got a reduced sentence.
    But no! another Irish Judge sends out the message, Plead not guilty and when even if you are found guilty guess what, you'll get a reduced sentence.

    Two questions:

    1) DO you know more abotu this or less about this than the jedge?
    2) Are you sticking to the facts or are you letting emotion get involved?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Maximilian wrote: »
    I have little sympathy for someone who peddles drugs but I don't want an arbitrary judicial system that punishes people according to public opinion.

    Thats where its leading to due to judges wrecklessness. When the public lose confidence in the judicial system and i believe there is a serious dent there, vigilantism will take off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    We need a different kind of prison. Prison *should* rehabilitate people. Prisons that have prisoners returning again and again just aren't working.


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats where its leading to due to judges wrecklessness. When the public lose confidence in the judicial system and i believe there is a serious dent there, vigilantism will take off.

    Vigilantes? Oh for god's sake no it won't.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Maximilian wrote: »
    Vigilantes? Oh for god's sake no it won't.
    Well hear the man out. I believe in America, there's a city that has a vigilante system that works quite well. When a crime is deserving of the vigilante treatment, they shine a symbol at the sky and he sorts it out.

    I fail to see why that couldn't work in Limerick say, given that the prevailing climate allows for excellent cloud cover.


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    Robbo wrote: »
    Well hear the man out. I believe in America, there's a city that has a vigilante system that works quite well. When a crime is deserving of the vigilante treatment, they shine a symbol at the sky and he sorts it out.

    I fail to see why that couldn't work in Limerick say, given that the prevailing climate allows for excellent cloud cover.

    Surely such a man would be recognized by either criminals or police and either killed or arrested.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Maximilian wrote: »
    Surely such a man would be recognized by either criminals or police and either killed or arrested.
    He's well known to both and indeed works with the police. The arrangement has been operating with great success since 1939.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    Yeah, but his car is very conspicuous.


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    Robbo wrote: »
    He's well known to both and indeed works with the police. The arrangement has been operating with great success since 1939.

    If that were true I'm sure somebody would have based a movie franchise on it by now.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Maximilian wrote: »
    If that were true I'm sure somebody would have based a movie franchise on it by now.
    I believe the individual in question is quite private and doesn't seek the limelight.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats where its leading to due to judges wrecklessness. When the public lose confidence in the judicial system and i believe there is a serious dent there, vigilantism will take off.

    Oh dear gurramok.

    You are prepared to accept that public confidence as regards house prices is clearly wrong as it is based on a number of false assumptions, so can you accept the possibility that the recent waning of public confidence in the realm of criminal justice is equally based on a number of false assumptions.

    In fact, these assumptions are completely ridiculous when looked at in their context:
    1) judges acting out of fear or sympathy for individual offenders
    2) judges not knowing what an appropriate sentence is
    3) 10 years being a short sentence
    4) prisons in Ireland being a desireable place to be in
    5) the longer the prison sentence, the better the victim will feel.

    So when there is a disparity between public perception and reality do you advocate:
    a) people educating themselves to understand what's going on more; or
    b) reality should change to fit public perception lest there be vigiliantism (or price drops shock horror).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    I think it would be a mistake for any judicial system or
    community to consider its laws and punishments to be beyond
    critical evaluation. This relates to manslaughter cases,
    but indicates that reciprocity between public opinion and
    sentencing policy is required for balance:


    From The Irish Times, 11/6:

    Addressing the Law Faculty at University College
    Cork last night, Mr Justice Carney said fatal stabbings "are
    in fact now out of control".

    In a speech entitled The Role of the Victim in the Irish Criminal
    Process Part III, he quoted from an address by Joan Deane,
    one of the founding members of crime victims' group AdVic,
    delivered to the Judicial Studies Institute annual conference
    two years ago.

    In that address, Ms Deane said: "Families of homicide victims
    and the majority of the public at large, feel that the sentences
    being handed down for manslaughter are frequently too lenient,
    with the penalties imposed not reflecting the severity of the
    crime."

    In a carefully nuanced speech, the judge said several lengthy
    sentences for manslaughter imposed by the Central Criminal
    Court have been overturned by the Court of Criminal Appeal.
    He said he was "bound by considerations of fealty and obedience
    to follow the judgments of Mr Justice (Adrian) Hardiman which
    are binding upon me". "It is not for me to say that there should
    be a reassessment of the fundamental principles of sentencing
    in the light of what the courts are having to deal with today.

    "That is for the Supreme Court and the Court of Criminal Appeal
    whom it is my obligation in the scheme of things as a trial judge
    to respectfully follow and obey." However, he thought he could
    "formulate what I believe Joan Deane would say were she the
    one who was giving this lecture.

    "I believe that she would say that so far as wilful, violent,
    gratuitous homicides are concerned, the courts are not dealing
    with them with the severity expected by the majority of right-thinking
    members of society who are fearful for their safety.

    "I believe she would then want to know why this is so. I do not
    have the answer to that question. I think it may have something
    to do with the rules being formulated in different times." He said
    manslaughter cases in the past "do not compare with the mindless
    viciousness of what is going through the courts today".


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Intothesea wrote: »
    I think it would be a mistake for any judicial system or
    community to consider its laws and punishments to be beyond
    critical evaluation. This relates to manslaughter cases,
    but indicates that reciprocity between public opinion and
    sentencing policy is required for balance:

    It requires critical evaluation. Same is severly lacking in threads like this.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    From The Irish Times, 11/6:

    Note that this is the same Judge Carney that people in similar threads believe is a lenient sentencer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    It requires critical evaluation. Same is severly lacking in threads like this.

    My point is general, the systems are and should
    be feedback loops. I'd tend to be quite critical
    of people who talk down to a community member whose
    opinion probably relates nicely to the general. When words
    like 'vigilantism' pop up in the general media, it's a sign
    (to me at least) that the loop is loop the loop :pac:


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Intothesea wrote: »
    My point is general, the systems are and should
    be feedback loops. I'd tend to be quite critical
    of people who talk down to a community member whose
    opinion probably relates nicely to the general. When words
    like 'vigilantism' pop up in the general media, it's a sign
    (to me at least) that the loop is loop the loop :pac:

    I'm not sure what you mean by the talking down comment, whether you are referring to me or not. I am not talking down to gurramok - he's a seasoned veteran of these pages. Also, I'm not talking down to you, as I essentially agree with your point. However, there is a different meaning attached to critical in the phrase "critical evaluation" than in saying "I'm quite critical".

    However, I don't accept the original post as it's a mish-mash of angst, misunderstanding and piggy-backing on perceived public sentiment. If he gave a critical analysis of the decision (i.e. a reasoned account of what he considers to be the issue) we could then discuss the matter rationally.

    I didn't understand your last comment - discussing vigilantism in the general media is a sign to you of what exactly?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    Johnny, I didn't think you were talking down to me
    but in general in threads like this one the men of
    law do tend to adopt a superior tone to talk to
    community members. In general I think this is bound
    to communicate an 'us Vs. them' attitude to people
    who might already be very wary of 'the law'.

    With regard to the 'loop-the-loop' statement, I
    meant to say that if a negative opinion arises in the
    general public as a result of incommensurate
    punishment, or of the perception of it -- that it
    still creates an atmosphere conducive to dischord
    and damages the community's sense of safety (as
    well as providing criminal minds with the illusion of
    greater freedom).

    For this reason I'd look on the general opinions
    expressed as signs of community feeling. :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Oh thanks Johnny for the seasons vet remark :D

    Perception or not, the relative of the victim in the driving case(other thread) knew exactly how that case progressed and that persons reaction to the changing of the sentence from a suspended one to a cummunity service one for killing a pedestrian is justified reactionary anger i believe.
    I do read up on the most serious cases every week and the sentencing in some does be unreal. If it was the UK or US, the offender would be almost guaranteed to get the appropiate unlenient sentence.
    There was a case earlier where a South African man killed his wife in Meath and only committed the act in this jurisdiction as he would get a lenier sentence(he admitted this in his trial)
    There are also cases out there where people(especially the thugs) are granted bail for serious offences and alot do commit more crimes while on bail despite the public voting to restrict the bail laws(remember that one?) and yet the judges do not reflect public opinion on these matters.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Intothesea wrote: »
    Johnny, I didn't think you were talking down to me
    but in general in threads like this one the men of
    law do tend to adopt a superior tone to talk to
    community members. In general I think this is bound
    to communicate an 'us Vs. them' attitude to people
    who might already be very wary of 'the law'.

    If you think men of the law are bad you should see the ladyfolk!
    Intothesea wrote: »
    With regard to the 'loop-the-loop' statement, I
    meant to say that if a negative opinion arises in the
    general public as a result of incommensurate
    punishment, or of the perception of it -- that it
    still creates an atmosphere conducive to dischord
    and damages the community's sense of safety (as
    well as providing criminal minds with the illusion of
    greater freedom).

    But increasing sentences to appease public sentiment is not going to solve the issue. What is perhaps needed are:

    1) sentencing guidelines like they have in the UK. For example, in the UK the basic sentence for a rape is 5 years, depending on the severity of the offence this can be reduced or increased. Any other aggravating factors will increase the sentence (e.g. intimidation of the victim subsequent to the offence) and any mitigating factors (e.g. guilty plea, remorse, etc) will decrease it. Finally the offenders circumstances will be viewed (e.g. does the person require treatment/rehabilitation, do they have family responsibilities, do they suffer from a psychological condition etc) before the just penalty is applied. If judges were to go through this step by step process (which has been rejected by the Court of Criminal Appeal) the public could follow more easily the reasons for what seem like incorrect decisions and would perhaps then agree with them.

    2) public awareness of the basic principles of sentencing and of the consequences of a prison sentence. If public sentiment dictates that someone should be imprisoned for a long time, and the judge sentences them to a shorter period of time, instead of assuming the judge was wrong, people should instead try to understand why the judge reached that decision. Instead of accusing judges of incompetence, conspiracy, or judges being out of touch, why not try to understand their reasons.

    3) better media standards - if you read the Irish Times you will get a number of brief sentencing reports with nothing other than the basic facts e.g. "man gets 5 years for robbery" etc. Most of these are very boring and are examples of the justice system at work. However, some of the other newspapers will only print stories that will enrage their readers. As I said earlier, there are 3,000 indictable offences prosecuted each year in Ireland, and of those only a handful make up these "incompetent judge gets it wrong" type stories. Public awareness of cases where judges get it right (or where they are quite severe) is necessary to provide balance to this public sentiment.
    Intothesea wrote: »
    For this reason I'd look on the general opinions
    expressed as signs of community feeling. :)

    For those reasons, I think it is inadequate to simply state that because people feel sentences are too lenient (based on a few carefully selected newspaper stories) that judges should impose harsher sentences, or that mandatory sentences should be imposed.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    gurramok wrote: »
    Perception or not, the relative of the victim in the driving case(other thread) knew exactly how that case progressed and that persons reaction to the changing of the sentence from a suspended one to a cummunity service one for killing a pedestrian is justified reactionary anger i believe.

    Community service is a way of making something good come from the offence. I would be very much in favour of it, although the current statutory maximum is 240 hours (i.e. 30 days). For an offence like this, I think up to 1,000 hours would be appropriate (i.e. the equivalent of 2 days a week for over a year). I also think that community service should be a condition of the suspended sentence rather than imposed instead of it. Given the low risk of reoffending (which I gather would have been part of the sentence) community service is actually more punishment than a suspended sentence.

    I'll discuss the particular reaction of the man in the other thread in the other thread if you like, but for present purposes, I don't think that the reaction of deceased's family is sufficient to infer that the judge was wrong, because a judge has to balance a number of factors, the effect on the family is only one of them. Unfortunately, some victims of crime and their family members would like criminal prosecutions to be in their name, but they're not, they are in the name of the People (at the suit of the Director of Public Prosecutions).
    gurramok wrote: »
    I do read up on the most serious cases every week and the sentencing in some does be unreal. If it was the UK or US, the offender would be almost guaranteed to get the appropiate unlenient sentence.

    How do you mean unreal? What I think is unreal in these debates is that the people who call for more severe sentences do not fully understand that the sentence is already quite severe. Obviously there are sentences that I do not agree with - some being too lenient, others being too severe. But that is not to say that because my view differs from the judge's decision that the judge made a mistake. What I would need to look at (and what the DPP will look at in deciding whether to appeal or not) are the reasons why the judge imposed that particular sentence, and whether there was an error in principle in what he did. As I posted above, I believe sentencing judgements should try to give a breakdown, as far as is practical to do so, so that people can see why the judge made that decision, and if there was a mistake that mistake is easier to spot.

    As for the UK and US, I don't think that sentencing is any harsher in the UK. For one example, the typical sentence for rape in the UK is 5 years. In Ireland, it is closer to 10. I accept that the US imposes harsher sentences than Ireland, but I don't believe that the two countries are comparable. For a start, it is only relatively recently that Ireland has seen gangland style offences, and the changes in judicial attitudes towards this will take a long time. Another thing is that US justice is more focused on public retribution and punishment, whereas in Ireland the focus is more on trying to do what is best on semi-utilitarian principles.
    gurramok wrote: »
    There was a case earlier where a South African man killed his wife in Meath and only committed the act in this jurisdiction as he would get a lenier sentence(he admitted this in his trial)

    Someone should have told him that the sentence for murder in Ireland is mandatory life imprisonment. The fact that he had an incorrect perception fo the Irish justice system is not an indictment of that system.
    gurramok wrote: »
    There are also cases out there where people(especially the thugs) are granted bail for serious offences and alot do commit more crimes while on bail despite the public voting to restrict the bail laws(remember that one?) and yet the judges do not reflect public opinion on these matters.

    First of all, section 2 of the bail act, 1997 (which came about as a direct result of the referendum) allows such objections to bail, and people are regularly refused bail on those grounds. However, everyone has the right to the presumption of innocence and the right not to have their liberty interfered with other than in due course of law, so locking them up on the off chance that they might commit further crimes of an unspecified nature is unfair and unjust. I would point out that bail is not given to criminals, it is given to people charged with criminal offences, a completely different thing. I would also say that no judge has a crystal ball that can let them see into the future and predict with 100% accuracy whether someone will commit further offences while on bail. So if you can tell me how a better system should be run, then I'd love to hear it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    If you think men of the law are bad you should see
    the ladyfolk!

    Cheap shots for the win! :pac: :p

    But increasing sentences to appease public sentiment is
    not going to solve the issue.

    True, but that wasn't what I was hoping to infer,
    though I do agree with the rest of your points.
    Lawmaking must relate not-so-systematically to
    public feeling, in that general/continued outrage
    serves as a barometer for either change-requirement
    levels (this would relate to violent changes in
    community makeup I believe: aka Ireland in past
    ten years) or for increased need for judicial systems'
    transparency. A good system isn't closed nor is a
    mutual dictatorship.

    One way I can think around the issue of growing
    discontentment with court measures is greater
    public awareness. Ultimately my point here was
    to look at the general problem associated with
    identifiable lawyers being disparaging of negative
    public views, in public.
    For those reasons, I think it is inadequate to simply
    state that because people feel sentences are too lenient.

    I think it's a mistake for lawyers to seek to quell
    negative public opinion on a public forum. By 'looking
    on it as an expression of feeling' - I meant taking it
    on academically, to use as extra lighting on the road
    to critical evaluation. Positive education doesn't read
    anything like the first two pages of this thread afaik ;)

    Anyway fair play Johnny, your answers are very
    informative.


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 5,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Maximilian


    gurramok wrote: »
    If it was the UK or US, the offender would be almost guaranteed to get the appropiate unlenient sentence.

    They have their fair share of lenient, controversial sentences in the UK too.

    And they execute retarded people in parts of the US - not a great comparison.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Intothesea wrote: »
    Cheap shots for the win! :pac: :p

    I wasn't kidding.



    Intothesea wrote: »
    Lawmaking must relate not-so-systematically to
    public feeling, in that general/continued outrage
    serves as a barometer for either change-requirement
    levels (this would relate to violent changes in
    community makeup I believe: aka Ireland in past
    ten years) or for increased need for judicial systems'
    transparency. A good system isn't closed nor is a
    mutual dictatorship.

    I would add to this (or to extend your point about increased transparency) that we need impartial reporting of criminal sentences. If members of the public were to sit in a criminal court all day every day for a week, I think they would agree with 90% of the sentences. Of the remaining 10% they might say that 5% were too lenient, but that the remaining 5% was too severe. A correct sentence is not newsworthy, and unfortunately an unduly heavy sentence is rarely seen as judges responding to public demand for higher sentences. But whenever there is an unduly lenient (or even just lenient) sentence the papers will latch onto it and generate antipathy towards the judge or to the judicial system.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    One way I can think around the issue of growing
    discontentment with court measures is greater
    public awareness. Ultimately my point here was
    to look at the general problem associated with
    identifiable lawyers being disparaging of negative
    public views, in public.

    Is not the undue disparaging of judges not a much more dangerous thing? Granted there are times when it is deserved, and there are also times when a judge will simply make an error of judgement (they are human after all).

    Also, I really can't stand people who use the victims of crime to further their criticisms of judges. While I can at times understand the frustration felt by the victims of crime, I can only feel that this is compounded by the people who make arguments like "The victim must feel that her whole life is ruined, that she cannot feel safe or live a normal life" etc. The reason I can't stand this type of comment is because it can often cause the damage it claims to highlight.

    Intothesea wrote: »
    I think it's a mistake for lawyers to seek to quell
    negative public opinion on a public forum. By 'looking
    on it as an expression of feeling' - I meant taking it
    on academically, to use as extra lighting on the road
    to critical evaluation. Positive education doesn't read
    anything like the first two pages of this thread afaik ;)

    Well I think everyone has the right to express their views, even lawyers. I'm sure there are a lot of non-lawyers who know a lot more about sentencing than lawyers, especially because to really understand the issues you need to understand:

    1) what it is like to be the victim of crime
    2) what it is like to spend time in prison
    3) why some people commit offences
    4) the costs of sending someone to prison (an unpopular but important consideration)
    5) the benefits of rehabilitation
    6) the principles of forgiveness and retribution that have shaped our society
    7) the fact that human justice is imperfect
    8) the need for people to be safe
    9) the need for people to feel safe
    10) the need to discourage people from a life of crime thus having more able bodied people to work and pay taxes (this is the original reason for our system of criminal law - to have enough able bodied men to fight for the king).

    Very few of these considerations are particular to lawyers, and have been discussed by political theorists such as Montesqueu, Bentham etc. There are some factors that make little sense at first glance but have proved over the centuries to be very important (e.g. a reduced sentence for a guilty plea because, among other things, if everybody ran their trials only a tiny fraction of cases would ever be heard by the courts). On the other hand, there are factors for which familiarity breeds contempt (e.g. someone who has lived a relatively sheltered life might be horrified by an assault that doesn't result in harm, whereas a judge or a lawyer might consider it to be "minor assault" or the like). What is interesting about the news report here is that there is no indication given for the reason for the difference in the sentence, but no doubt the judge did state his reason (otherwise the driver would have a clear right of appeal).


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    gurramok wrote: »
    There are also cases out there where people(especially the thugs) are granted bail for serious offences and alot do commit more crimes while on bail despite the public voting to restrict the bail laws(remember that one?) and yet the judges do not reflect public opinion on these matters.

    Just on the issue of bail - Man cleared after year in custody


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