Do you think the lisbon treaty will effect Irish Defense force

bitemybanger

Alot of talk on the radio today about if Lisbon is voted in favour it will have some affect on our nutrallity:rolleyes: and the way operations are run overseas. what do ye think?

MacBuster

We are not Neutral and have'nt been for a long time, we take part in NATO and PfP operations, we let the American's/Cuban's (in the 70's)/Russians and god knows who else use our country as a transit point.

I am voting no but not for that reason.

zig

i am nearly positive we would not be obliged to do any more than we do already, it wouldnt affect our "neutrality", or whatever our version of neutrality you can call it.

Im voting yes, because after alot of mind changing I decided to read good chunks of it myself and came to the conclusion that the no campaign leave out too much when giving out about something, I believe theyre taking out their problems with the government on this treaty.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Yes it will.

MacBuster

zig wrote: »

i am nearly positive we would not be obliged to do any more than we do already, it wouldnt affect our "neutrality", or whatever our version of neutrality you can call it.

Im voting yes, because after alot of mind changing I decided to read good chunks of it myself and came to the conclusion that the no campaign leave out too much when giving out about something, I believe theyre taking out their problems with the government on this treaty.

Your voting for less rights, Basically a New Roman Empire and German Dominated europe, which they could'nt do by war they are now doing by Economics...

If you vote yes you are basically voting to loose your national identity and in my eyes whoever votes yes is a traitor to Ireland and what this country was based on.

King Ludvig

MacBuster wrote: »

whoever votes yes is a traitor to Ireland and what this country was based on.

:pac:

Riddle101

MacBuster wrote: »

Your voting for less rights, Basically a New Roman Empire and German Dominated europe, which they could'nt do by war they are now doing by Economics...

If you vote yes you are basically voting to loose your national identity and in my eyes whoever votes yes is a traitor to Ireland and what this country was based on.

Tell me please, what is this country based on? being under the British Empire for 800 years? Allowing Britain to take Northern Ireland? Having Irish as our second lanuage? oh i know maybe it's joining the EU in 1973. You have no right to call a fellow Irish man a traitor just because you have a different view on things, Do you think Micheal Collins is a traitor? my Point is whatever way someone votes dose not make them any more or any less a traitor then you or me.

By the way i'm voting no

Ravage1616

Mairt wrote: »

Yes it will.

Care to elaborate?

MacBuster

Riddle101 wrote: »

Tell me please, what is this country based on? being under the British Empire for 800 years? Allowing Britain to take Northern Ireland? Having Irish as our second lanuage? oh i know maybe it's joining the EU in 1973. You have no right to call a fellow Irish man a traitor just because you have a different view on things, Do you think Micheal Collins is a traitor? my Point is whatever way someone votes dose not make them any more or any less a traitor then you or me.

By the way i'm voting no

We had a Rising in 1916 we had a war of independance, we had the Civil War, the 1956-62 IRA Campaign and then the Troubles to shape what is now modern Ireland...Only now to hand it over to the Tyrants of europe...

We are slowing losing our national identity, First by losing our currency now by basically losing our current constitution and gradually handing power over to the New Empire of europe...Sorry if you vote for that you are no more different that the people who brought the Normans into Ireland...

Vote for Europe Vote for destruction of your National Identity for a F*cked up european one...No thanks

zig

seriously, your living in the past, all this talk of the 1916 rising, etc. Respect to people that gave their lives for that but Your carrying on as if the EU is some evil empire ready to make slaves of its people, comparing it to german invasions and british occupation of Ireland.

You refer to these things shaping modern Ireland, if you ask me nothing shaped modern Ireland more than joining Europe in 1973.

Have you even bothered to read any of the treaty, or even a detailed summary? or are you just spouting sh1t youve heard others say. Vote whatever you want but do it for the right reasons. Im certainly glad you dont represent the majority of no voters that Ive come across.

OP, it wont affect our neutrality in terms of being obliged to do any more than we already have to. I.e. We wont have to go to a war we dont want to. It respects that entirely. BUT, yes there is something in it about helping in the future, contributing towards military/technology spending which is a fair enough reason to complain. But this is what I personally beleive the no campaign have been exagerrating a bit, by talking about neutrality etc.

MacBuster

zig wrote: »

seriously, your living in the past, all this talk of the 1916 rising, etc. Respect to people that gave their lives for that but Your carrying on as if the EU is some evil empire ready to make slaves of its people, comparing it to german invasions and british occupation of Ireland.

You refer to these things shaping modern Ireland, if you ask me nothing shaped modern Ireland more than joining Europe in 1973.

Have you even bothered to read any of the treaty, or even a detailed summary? or are you just spouting sh1t youve heard others say. Vote whatever you want but do it for the right reasons. Im certainly glad you dont represent the majority of no voters that Ive come across.

OP, it wont affect our neutrality in terms of being obliged to do any more than we already have to. I.e. We wont have to go to a war we dont want to. It respects that entirely. BUT, yes there is something in it about helping in the future, contributing towards military/technology spending which is a fair enough reason to complain. But this is what I personally beleive the no campaign have been exagerrating a bit, by talking about neutrality etc.

I have read the treaty cover to cover, our apparent Neutrality will be affected, you are a person who does not deserve Irish Citizenship disrespecting the people who died in the past both Republican and Loyalist they all had some degree of Patriotism...

The EU is an empire and it is what is going to destroy the fabric of modern societies across european with it's anti-god and anti-induvidual constitution... Not even Brian Cowen knows whats fully involved in this and has admitted it, it is like someone being given a contract and not reading it and then signing it...

I will hope and pray that this country is not stupid enough to vote yes for the big business and tyrants of the EU...If we were strong enough we should leave it as we could easily exist with trade with the likes of the US and other Non-EU states....

Dinter

It strikes me that there were probably converations like this before the Act of Union was signed. Of course that was done by greed and massive bribes were as this will be passed through deceit and pure blinded loyalty to party posturing.

The "triple lock" will remain in place which is meant to be a guarantee of our neutrality, such as it is. However it seems to me that there is a definite shadowing of the lines between peace keeping and peace enforcement. One would seem to be in keeping with our ideals while the other not so much.

Should the European "army" that has been mooted as being a rapid reaction force to hotspots come into existence what would our role be? If they are going peace keeping are we obliged to attend and what if it's a European country that is causing the problem. If this was in force forty years ago would our troops have been keeping the peace for King Leopold in the Congo instead of the Congolese people? It's all a bit confusing.

Frankly I think that as a developed nation we have a duty to do as much as we can to aid people who weren't born to our advantages. If that means sending troops on peace enforcement tours than I'm all for it. To be honest I think peace keeping is now being used to reduce army expenditure i.e. they don't need this or that, sure they'll be out of harms way.

Neutrality now seems a cynical ploy to ensure that our defence forces don't receive equipment and numbers that they should. On the other hand our government goes bounding into a position where they inform us we should be party to a "gentlemans agreement" that our forces won't be sent into danger they're ill equipped for.

I'm not a serving soldier but even I can see that it'll be the "thin green line" that'll suffer.

Morpheus

MacBuster wrote: »

I have read the treaty cover to cover, our apparent Neutrality will be affected

:rolleyes:

Funny that. If you read the constitution cover to cover, you would see that there is no such thing as Irish Neutrality, apparent or not. we have a foreign policy (thats a policy okay?!) of non involvement on a case by case basis under the triple lock mechanism. the sooner the no side get that into their heads and stop spouting scaremongering on this issue the better.

To be neutral requires a number of things, the first being a referendum.

The others are an increase in military expenditure and power to protect our isolating neutrality as we can no longer rely on others to aid us unilaterally, to be neutral is to stand on ones own two legs and to be honest, militarily we currently dont have a leg to stand on!

Dinter

Morphéus wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Funny that. If you read the constitution cover to cover, you would see that there is no such thing as Irish Neutrality, apparent or not. we have a foreign policy (thats a policy okay?!) of non involvement on a case by case basis under the triple lock mechanism. the sooner the no side get that into their heads and stop spouting scaremongering on this issue the better.

Well to be honest even if you did read the treaty it's just a collection of amendments etc and would make no sense unless you read every other treaty we've signed as well!!!

Dinter

Morphéus wrote: »

. . . to be neutral is to stand on ones own two legs and to be honest, militarily we currently dont have a leg to stand on!

I couldn't agree more. I remember reading a book about the Irish navy although I can't remember the name of it atm.

Basically though to be considered actually neutral internationally, you need to be able to defend your own borders and sea area. This ensures there's no malign influences forcing you to tweak your neutrality one way or the other.

I'd be interested to see what people would think of our capabilities to do that.

Morpheus

let me tell you what i think about it.

Ive read somewhere that Ireland owns more Sea area than any other european nation.

We have 8 naval vessels.

Its the equivelant of the gardai having a single patrol car to patrol the entire country.

The navy should be at least 3 times that size. we should have an atlantic fleet and an irish sea fleet with a couple of larger surface vessels to provide transport and support for overseas missions and in my opinion we should have the capability to build these vessels here. but thats another days work.

zig

MacBuster wrote: »

I have read the treaty cover to cover, our apparent Neutrality will be affected, you are a person who does not deserve Irish Citizenship disrespecting the people who died in the past both Republican and Loyalist they all had some degree of Patriotism...

:eek:
Are you just taking the p1ss at this stage??

Did you even read my post, I am respecting them. I bet you that if any of our freedom fighters from the 12/13 hundred up to the 1920s saw how we are living today and the freedom and the voting rights we have they would know all their work wasnt in vain.

We do agree on one thing though, and thats that our neutrality is only apparent, so even then I dont think people have the right to give out about losing it if they dont believe are neutral in the first place.

My biggest fear of the lisbon treaty isnt whether it gets passed or not,but that the outcome will be decided by people who know little about it, dont care about it and are completely undecided.

As a matter of fact , there should be three options, YES to pass it, NO to reject it(No means No), and UNDECIDED , if UNDECIDED wins then the EU and our government must try again but take a different approach,perhaps be more honest and upfront about what is in the treaty.

minidazzler

MacBuster wrote: »

I have read the treaty cover to cover, our apparent Neutrality will be affected, you are a person who does not deserve Irish Citizenship disrespecting the people who died in the past both Republican and Loyalist they all had some degree of Patriotism...

How about this, Those people died so we would have the right to vote for what to do for this country. Whether Right or Wrong for the country It is a choice. I choose to vote yes, You choose to vote no. That is what those men and Women Died for.

Steyr

Im voting yes, there is no such thing as Irish Neutrality. If you want to see proper Neutrality have a look at Sweden or Switzerland. Sweden adopts a non-aligned foreign policy in peacetime and neutrality in wartime, Yet they have 4th Generation fighters such as the Gripen to preserve/enforce their Neutrality. Just because you say your Neutral or whatever doesnt mean your not fair game for anybody who wants to have a go at ya.

Lets just join NATO and well all be sorted proper quick, just look at Poland and their shiny new F16's!:D

Morpheus

If its not in the constitution then it doesnt exist.

Irish neutrality is a percieved notion by many liberals and lefties in this country.

The reality is a completely different animal.

We aint neutral at all, so please everyone, stop using the word.

When we have a referendum on the subject and its voted into our constitution then we can freely use it.

Lets just join NATO and well all be sorted proper quick, just look at Poland and their shiny new F16's!

We dont have to join NATO my friend. I for one, will laugh myself silly the day the govt asks us to declare this nation fully neutral, they dont have the will to have to spend the required cash to beef up our military strength so that we can support and defend a constitutionally enshrined neutrality :rolleyes: when that day comes, the shiny F16s will soon follow.

I would like to see a concept similiar to the scandinavians, in use here.

arybvtcw0eolkf

RTE just reported a resounding YES vote from the Defence Forces postal vote.

Irish_Army01

Mairt wrote: »

RTE just reported a resounding YES vote from the Defence Forces postal vote.

LMAO!!..certainly not from my Unit!!:D

Conor108

Ah well thats that:cool: