Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Sins of the father.

  • 10-06-2008 11:42am
    #1
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭


    Before I start, I'd like to ask that this be a Christian only response thread. thanks.

    there are many cases of Sons being punished for the sins of the father. Davids first son with Batsheeba etc. Have any of you got an opinion as to why this is the case? Love to hear your insights.

    Thanks,
    Jimi.


Comments

  • #2
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    It's a bit of a mystery Jimi, something I've been meaning to find out about. Original Sin is the main one that comes to mind.


  • #3
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Before I start, I'd like to ask that this be a Christian only response thread. thanks.

    there are many cases of Sons being punished for the sins of the father. Davids first son with Batsheeba etc. Have any of you got an opinion as to why this is the case? Love to hear your insights.

    Thanks,
    Jimi.

    Great question, Jimi!

    I believe that God has the power to give life and to take life. In this particular case the baby died and went to heaven. Therefore it was David and Bathsheba who were punished by having to bear grief and shame. The baby itself was not actually punished.

    Anytime a baby dies is a time of real pain for the parents, but we believe the baby itself is in eternal glory.


  • #4
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    PDN wrote: »
    Great question, Jimi!

    I believe that God has the power to give life and to take life. In this particular case the baby died and went to heaven. Therefore it was David and Bathsheba who were punished by having to bear grief and shame. The baby itself was not actually punished.

    Anytime a baby dies is a time of real pain for the parents, but we believe the baby itself is in eternal glory.
    That's my take too. God has a right to call any of us home at any time, without implying it a punishment on us. David and Bathsheba were being punished, not the child.


  • #5
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Just to put a slightly different slant on this thread.

    Exodus 20
    5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    My understanding of this passage is that a life of hated will often invariably be passed down to the children. In this regard, I am reminded of a quote from Wuthering Heights: 'And we'll see if one tree won't grow as crooked as another, with the same wind to twist it!'. Think of any area of the world where hatred is instilled in the young, and you'll see the hatred perpetuating itself. You could imagine, for example, that many generations in the North - each living a little more peacefully with their neighbours than the last - are yet to come before the hatred of the past is diluted enough for it not to matter.


  • #6
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Another factor to consider is that the sinful actions of fathers often reduce the standard and quality of life of their children. For example, children live in poverty because their parents decide to take drugs or drink to excess etc.

    I must admit that I find it much harder to understand why punishment was sometimes visited on family members, as when Achan's family was stoned along with him in Joshua Chapter 7. I suppose they may have been complicit in his actions.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I think delving into why this happens could unlock many doors of knowledge. Afterall, we are all suffering from the sins of our fleshly father, Adam. The relationship between God The Father and The Son, being of the same substance could well give us another insight into this special relationship. A certain oneness that we don't quite understand. I must say its a question that provokes more questions.

    @PDN and Wolfsbane:
    As for the baby going to heaven upon death, I seem to recall on a previous thread (the one I started on hell some time ago), that you said that people who die are in a temporary place called hades until Judgement day? If I have misunderstood, then ignore, but if I've represented you correctly, then would this not contradict the explaination of the baby going to heaven?

    Thanks for the input.


  • #8
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    @PDN and Wolfsbane:
    As for the baby going to heaven upon death, I seem to recall on a previous thread (the one I started on hell some time ago), that you said that people who die are in a temporary place called hades until Judgement day? If I have misunderstood, then ignore, but if I've represented you correctly, then would this not contradict the explaination of the baby going to heaven?

    I can't answer for Wolfsbane, but my own understanding is that all those who died prior to Christ's death & resurrection went to Hades. (Sorry, in a rush this morning & no time to provide Scripture Chapter and verse for this). The upper part of Hades, Paradise or 'Abraham's bosom', is a place of bliss where the righteous dead go. The lower part of Hades, as described by Christ in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is certainly no bundle of laughs.

    I believe that at Christ's death and resurrection he led captivity captive and opened up Paradise - taking the spirits of the righteous dead to heaven. From that moment on we read about believers, at their deaths, going straight to be with the Lord - ie heaven. The unrighteous dead, however, remain in Hades waiting for judgment day.

    So yes, I did contradict myself. I should more properly have said that the baby went to Paradise when it died, and then on to heaven after Jesus died on the Cross.


  • #9
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Exodus 20
    5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    What I love about this is a punishment lasts only 4 generations whereas the blessing for 1,000.

    I look at it more as the effects of sin stretch to the 4th generation. If my Dad sins I will suffer the effects of that sin as will my son and my grandson. If I come to trust in teh Lord, the effects get minimized and then blessed to the 1,000th generation.


  • #10
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I feel really uneasy at the thought of a child being penalised in any way for the faults of its parents.

    Here's the funny thing, though. Most of us feel it is OK for us to do things that will bless our children. For example, I like the idea of leaving my daughter an inheritance.

    So we don't have a problem with children bearing the consequences of their parents actions per se - just when it is negative rather than positive.


  • #11
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    That last post was very helpful.

    For those of you who wish to see the counterargument on the A&A forum, heres the link: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055312165


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    PDN wrote: »
    I can't answer for Wolfsbane, but my own understanding is that all those who died prior to Christ's death & resurrection went to Hades. (Sorry, in a rush this morning & no time to provide Scripture Chapter and verse for this). The upper part of Hades, Paradise or 'Abraham's bosom', is a place of bliss where the righteous dead go. The lower part of Hades, as described by Christ in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is certainly no bundle of laughs.

    I believe that at Christ's death and resurrection he led captivity captive and opened up Paradise - taking the spirits of the righteous dead to heaven. From that moment on we read about believers, at their deaths, going straight to be with the Lord - ie heaven. The unrighteous dead, however, remain in Hades waiting for judgment day.

    So yes, I did contradict myself. I should more properly have said that the baby went to Paradise when it died, and then on to heaven after Jesus died on the Cross.
    Yes, that's my view too.


  • #13
    pookie82
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,217 ✭✭✭pookie82


    I don't think anyone has mentioned this but the idea of the sins of the fathers visited upon the sons featured as a really common theme in Greek tragedy. You need look no further than Oedipus Rex, which, although written by Sophocles, was adapted from a myth stretching farther back than we can definitely trace. So it's more of a human-nature theme that famous and intelligent thinkers played around with a lot in the ancient world. I'm pretty sure "god" didn't come up with it. more than likely the writers of the bible threw it in cos it gathered the crowds in the old days :-)

    And in case I get slated, I'm not an atheist, but I've studied Classics too and the first thing that comes to mind when I saw that question was that it came from there.


Advertisement