Roundabouts, education needed

Slig

It seems to me that, after reading a lot of posts on near accidents and bad driving, that roundabouts just arent being used properly in this country. Its very clearly defined in the rules of the road booklet but everybody seems to have their own take on it and get very p1ssy if you try to tell them otherwise, in particular taking the second exit from a roundabout.
Also, some roundabouts have been "ammended" so that there is an arrow painted on the road dictating which lane to be in (usually left lane is first exit only and righthand lane for subsiquent exits) the only problem is you cant actually see the arrow on the road if there is a car in front of you at these usually busy roundabouts.
A couple of years ago there were a series of adds on tv demonstrating how to overtake or positioning at junctions etc. but absolutely nothing on roundabouts.
Every time I travel the Dublin to Sligo N4 some idiot tries to undertake me(I'm in the lefthand lane taking the second exit) on the first roundabout at longford and then gets all b1tchy when I dont let them and Its not just this roundabout that this happens on (not just culchies at fault). Even my Dad, who is a lorry driver, cant use a roundabout even though I repeatidly argue this point to him.

Biro

Slig wrote: »

It seems to me that, after reading a lot of posts on near accidents and bad driving, that roundabouts just arent being used properly in this country. Its very clearly defined in the rules of the road booklet but everybody seems to have their own take on it and get very p1ssy if you try to tell them otherwise, in particular taking the second exit from a roundabout.
Also, some roundabouts have been "ammended" so that there is an arrow painted on the road dictating which lane to be in (usually left lane is first exit only and righthand lane for subsiquent exits) the only problem is you cant actually see the arrow on the road if there is a car in front of you at these usually busy roundabouts.
A couple of years ago there were a series of adds on tv demonstrating how to overtake or positioning at junctions etc. but absolutely nothing on roundabouts.
Every time I travel the Dublin to Sligo N4 some idiot tries to undertake me(I'm in the lefthand lane taking the second exit) on the first roundabout at longford and then gets all b1tchy when I dont let them and Its not just this roundabout that this happens on (not just culchies at fault). Even my Dad, who is a lorry driver, cant use a roundabout even though I repeatidly argue this point to him.

How can they undertake you if you're in the left lane though?
But ya, roundabouts are nuts.

Zube

Slig wrote: »

Its very clearly defined in the rules of the road booklet but everybody seems to have their own take on it and get very p1ssy if you try to tell them otherwise, in particular taking the second exit from a roundabout.

The Rules of the Road on this subject have been rewritten several times. Back when I learned (riding a Triceratops) the rules said that if there was more than one lane entering the roundabout "common sense" applied. That was it.

Your particular problem, taking the second exit, is confused by the fact that the rules show a diagram of a car starting in the righthand lane, zooming around the inside of the roundabout and taking the second exit, and the text says you can do this "when conditions dictate otherwise".

I don't think this is particularly clear, even still:

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

fletch

Here's where the confusion starts. Take for example the roundabout at the top of J15 on the M50(here). I come from the Ballyogan Road every morning, cross over the M50, and take the 2nd exit(the blue marker to the green marker). The road over the M50 is a two lane road. 90% of drivers use the left lane to take the 2nd exit. Now the 2nd exit is not straight ahead so I think they should be using the right-hand lane, however technically they probably should be using the left-lane as they are taking the 2nd exit.

I totally agree on the point you make for road markings....how is somebody who doesn't know the road supposed to see arrows on a road when cars are parked on top of them?

ShayK1

fletch wrote: »

Here's where the confusion starts. Take for example the roundabout at the top of J15 on the M50(here). I come from the Ballyogan Road every morning, cross over the M50, and take the 2nd exit(the blue marker to the green marker). The road over the M50 is a two lane road. 90% of drivers use the left lane to take the 2nd exit. Now the 2nd exit is not straight ahead so I think they should be using the right-hand lane, however technically they probably should be using the left-lane as they are taking the 2nd exit.

I totally agree on the point you make for road markings....how is somebody who doesn't know the road supposed to see arrows on a road when cars are parked on top of them?

I asked my instructor more or less the same question when I was learning. He said "If its after 12 o'clock take it as a right turn"


edit: just incase people don't get what he means... Take the roundabout as a clock face, you approach at 6, left is 9 and right is 3 with 12 being straight ahead.

Zube

ShayK1 wrote: »

I asked my instructor more or less the same question when I was learning. He said "If its after 12 o'clock take it as a right turn"

I'd agree, but then you get into the problem that if 90% of people follow the letter of the law, they will see anyone using the right hand lane as a queue jumper, and everyone will get mad at them, and at any wimpy b#'*@'d who lets them merge back into traffic, so everyones blood pressure goes up and their driving gets worse.

My own gripe at roundabouts are the people who insist on coming to a complete stop before starting out onto an empty roundabout, causing a concertina of stopped traffic in their wake. It's a Yield, not a Stop! Keep it moving!

Run_to_da_hills

speaking to a guy working in insurance, he said more RTA's are caused on roundabouts than any other type of road juntion and that they are a pain in the a** to them. People still dont know how to use them.

fletch

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

peasant

Slig wrote: »

Even my Dad, who is a lorry driver, cant use a roundabout even though I repeatidly argue this point to him.

Well, as a lorry driver, your dad would fall into the keep left at all times rule.

Not sure if that exists here in Ireland, but where I got my lorry licence you were not allowed into the outside lane, unless you had to turn off from there.

But be that as it may ...have you tried going for a second or third exit on a roundabout in the "correct" way in a lorry, possibly an articulated one?

Even in my relatively small camper I don't like doing this, as there is lots of traffic hidden in the blind spots and your always teetering on the edge of an accident when changing lanes.

I find it much safer to go the long way round, indicators on and taking it nice and handy.

Also, that way I don't end up on the outside lane of the exit, having to filter left again

fletch

I find this interesting
"You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

* the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
* when directed by a Garda."


I always thought if you were entering a roundabout where it was two lanes on entering and two lanes exiting, if you were going straight ahead, you could use either lane (assuming no road markings). However from the quote above, it seems this is only possible where there are road markings indicating that you can use either lane....Ahh ya learn something new every day.

Slig

ShayK1 wrote: »

I asked my instructor more or less the same question when I was learning. He said "If its after 12 o'clock take it as a right turn"


edit: just incase people don't get what he means... Take the roundabout as a clock face, you approach at 6, left is 9 and right is 3 with 12 being straight ahead.

If we are using that system as the basis then it would be wrong to use the exit number to dictate your lane, it would be:
left at the round about,
right at the roundabout,
striaght through the roundabout

and then there will be the same confusion if the first exit is between straight and right turn:D

Zube

fletch wrote: »

Ahh ya learn something new every day.

I'll check my printed copy of the rules from a couple of years back when I find it, but I believe the text used to say what you remember. This is part of the problem, anyone who learned say 5 years ago and hasn't read the Rules booklet since will probably remember the same thing.

Creamy Goodness

this is the rule i use it's pretty simple i think,

if the exit you're taking is before 12 oclock use the left lane, anything else it's the right lane.

Zube

Here's a good one:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.38791,-7.688005&spn=0.003833,0.006588&z=17

This roundabout connects just two roads, so by the letter of the Rules, you should indicate left even when doing a 3 o'clock 90 degree right turn (from East to West on that map) as that is the "first exit".

Zube

Cremo wrote: »

this is the rule i use it's pretty simple i think,

if the exit you're taking is before 12 oclock use the left lane, anything else it's the right lane.

As quoted above, 12 o'clock is also the left lane, unless the inside lane is blocked, or a guard directs you. What's "blocked"? Does a stationary line of traffic in the left lane count as "blocked"?

Marcus.Aurelius

Or indeed you could approach the situation intelligently and obey the markings on the rood as your enter the yield point of the roundabout, some roundabouts do not follow the usual system because of the amount of traffic ordinarily using the exits.

In the case of single or dualcarraigeway laned roundabouts Left lane ONLY for left (1st exit) and right hand lane ONLY for right turns (3rd exit) and u turn (4th exit).

If two lanes enter the roundabout, each lane can be utilised to go straight through (2nd exit). If the roundabout is single lane entry, only left lane can be used for 2nd exit.

The clock illustration is not always correct, you're better off checking the markings as you enter. Very few roundabouts adhere to the clock system for straight on (2nd exit) when it comes to exit positioning.

fletch

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

Or indeed you could approach the situation intelligently and obey the markings on the rood as your enter the yield point of the roundabout, some roundabouts do not follow the usual system because of the amount of traffic ordinarily using the exits.

As has already been pointed out, sometimes other cars may be blocking the road markings.

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

If two lanes enter the roundabout, each lane can be utilised to go straight through (2nd exit). If the roundabout is single lane entry, only left lane can be used for 2nd exit.

As per the updated rules of the road which I quoted earlier, this is not the case. There must be road marking stating that you are allowed to use the right lane to go straight.

Marcus.Aurelius

fletch wrote: »

As per the updated rules of the road which I quoted earlier, this is not the case. There must be road marking stating that you are allowed to use the right lane to go straight.

And generally, there is. ROTR are a weak interpretation of the law, mixed with the general cowardice & selfishness the driver education system imparts to new drivers. I generally take that book with a pinch of salt!

mcaul

There is a simpler way to understand most roundabouts.

Think of them as a standard trafic light junction.

At most traffic lights, you use the left lane for turning left and going straight ahead. You use the right lane for turning right. Where there is a 2 lane carraige way, you use both lanes for going straight but you stay in the respective lane.

Same applies to roundabouts except where indicated otherwise

Left lane for left, left lane for straight, right lane for right or for turning back. Two lane carraigeway, use both lane for going straight and stay in respective lane when through the roundabout.


Roundabouts are actually very easy to navigate, but unfortunately people have fears about them and then gradually different "taxi driver" rules were bandied about and everyone got confused.

The craziest roundabout at present is Limerick bypass where some cars use the right lane for turning left! - but there are regularly gardai on duty stopping cars using the right lane for turning left. - If accident happened, driver using right lane would bear full responsibility for claim.

Zube

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

And generally, there is.

Yes, so before driving a busy route, all you need to do is have a scouting run the previous night when things are quiet, and have your co-driver take notes on all the road markings when they are not obscured by traffic.

This also helps with the problem that you generally must be in the correct lane before the markings appear, as driver who know the route will generally not take kindly to people queue-jumping so close to a junction.

I have Offaly plates, so driving in Dublin I just wear a flat cap and sit a pig in the passenger seat so that the Dubs realize I'm a bogman and take pity on me (I'm from Dublin originally, but I don't let on).

peasant

Another problem with roundabouts is that every second one is different from the norm and that that difference may or may not be signposted.

Always like it when you approch a roundabout on the outside lane of a dual carriageway, take the outside line through the roundabout only to find that the way out consists of a single lane only (without prior warning, of course)

And all of a sudden you find yourself up that proverbial creek without the paddle.

On busy roundabouts with special rules the locals may have it sussed, but pity the tourist (or culchie) approaching that roundabout for the first time ...they have a 99% chance of getting it terribly wrong.

In my humble personal opinion, roundabouts are kack to start with and the Irish specials with disappearing lanes, traffic lights and missing signage are kack squared.

Marcus.Aurelius

Zube wrote: »

Yes, so before driving a busy route, all you need to do is have a scouting run the previous night when things are quiet, and have your co-driver take notes on all the road markings when they are not obscured by traffic.

This also helps with the problem that you generally must be in the correct lane before the markings appear, as driver who know the route will generally not take kindly to people queue-jumping so close to a junction.

If there is a queue, you can take advantage of that wonderful talent called sight we are endowed with and observe the way traffic is filtering. If you lack the necessary critical thinking skills required, you can revert to the mantra of the ROTR and sit in the lane you choose.

If there is no queue, simply observe the markings and the road layout beyond the roundabout or revert to the left for left and straight on, and right for right and turn about.

If its a dual lane entry/exit system, either lane for straight on as all dubs do anyway.

Slig

I think the best way to navigate a roundabout after reading this is to
buy an old jetta and fuel it on crude oil to produce the most amount of smoke possible. stick a bale of straw in the boot (which obviously wont close) and just drive straight out there. This way everybody will just assume you dont know what your doing and keep out of your way:D.
At the minute I'm finding that people will actually run you off the roundabout to prove their method is right

Stealdo

Zube wrote: »

Here's a good one:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.38791,-7.688005&spn=0.003833,0.006588&z=17

This roundabout connects just two roads, so by the letter of the Rules, you should indicate left even when doing a 3 o'clock 90 degree right turn (from East to West on that map) as that is the "first exit".

Folks - have a look at the link provided by Fletch above...
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

The ROTR don't say anything about first exits, second exits and third exits. It refers to left, straight ahead and right hand turns (and defines right hand turn as anything later than straight ahead).

Zube

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

If there is a queue, you can take advantage of that wonderful talent called sight we are endowed with and observe the way traffic is filtering.

You may not notice it if you drive in heavy traffic a lot on routes you know, but the queues to roundabouts and junctions often start before the roundabout, junction or signage for the same is even visible.

Marcus.Aurelius

Thanks Stealdo, it doesn't state anything about clock rules, neither does it state that you cannot use the right lane to go straight on at a dual-carriageway entry/exit system.

That clock thing is silly and rarely used for lane markings for roundabouts with wonky exits. (Think Walkinstown!!)

Stealdo

Slig wrote: »

I think the best way to navigate a roundabout after reading this is to
buy an old jetta and fuel it on crude oil to produce the most amount of smoke possible. stick a bale of straw in the boot (which obviously wont close) and just drive straight out there. This way everybody will just assume you dont know what your doing and keep out of your way:D.
At the minute I'm finding that people will actually run you off the roundabout to prove their method is right

Or adopt the French approach to driving at La Place de l'Etoile - pretty much you see a space you go for it (no time to try and figure out whether your car will fit into it or not, you'll find the answer to that out soon enough anyway). Very much survival of the fittest.

Marcus.Aurelius

Zube wrote: »

You may not notice it if you drive in heavy traffic a lot on routes you know, but the queues to roundabouts and junctions often start before the roundabout, junction or signage for the same is even visible.

If in doubt, Left for left and straight on, right for right and turn about, as well as right for straight on if its a dual-carriageway entry/exit system.

If in doubt over lanes exiting and you wish to go straight on, I imagine left lane is a better option, especially if you don't know the roundabout.

What's the problem???

EDIT: been in dublin for 3 years, that's the general rule of thumb as far as I've seen

mcaul

Slig wrote: »

I think the best way to navigate a roundabout after reading this is to
buy an old jetta and fuel it on crude oil to produce the most amount of smoke possible. stick a bale of straw in the boot (which obviously wont close) and just drive straight out there. This way everybody will just assume you dont know what your doing and keep out of your way:D.
At the minute I'm finding that people will actually run you off the roundabout to prove their method is right

Was in cab in boston once - he had similar attitude. He would not notice an additional dent in his car, whereas yummy mummy would hate a dent in her new suv - so he always had right of way and right to choose which lane to use!:D - Similar system works in Paris!!! and here on walkinstown rb

fletch

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

If in doubt, Left for left and straight on, right for right and turn about, as well as right for straight on if its a dual-carriageway entry/exit system.

And you will get PLOWED out of it at this roundabout.
The 1st and 2nd lane are for the first exit ONLY and the 3rd lane is for all other exits.

Zube

Stealdo wrote: »

The ROTR don't say anything about first exits, second exits and third exits. It refers to left, straight ahead and right hand turns (and defines right hand turn as anything later than straight ahead).

Read it yourself, you are just wrong:

"when taking the first exit, going straight ahead or taking later exits"
"Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want."
"Leaving by a later exit"

etc.

Stealdo

Zube wrote: »

Read it yourself, you are just wrong:

"when taking the first exit, going straight ahead or taking later exits"
"Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want."
"Leaving by a later exit"

etc.

Zube - only the first of these relates to what I said so ignoring the other two and putting your quote into context with the rest of the sentence - it says "Unless road signs or road markings indicate otherwise, follow the steps below, when taking the first exit, going straight ahead or taking later exits off a roundabout."

The "steps below" then go on to describe the instructions for
"Making a left turn"
"Going straight ahead"
and
"Taking any later exits"

If your point is that they are confusing then yeah - switching between the two types of language can be confusing for some people. My point was simply that there are instructions provided for the three scenarios above - not for taking the first, second and third exits as was being suggested by most people posting.

Zube

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

Thanks Stealdo, it doesn't state anything about clock rules,

It makes the distinction between "left", "straight ahead" and "any later exit", which is effectively the same as the 12 o'clock rule.

neither does it state that you cannot use the right lane to go straight on at a dual-carriageway entry/exit system.

It shows that route in red on a diagram, and says:

You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

• the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
• when directed by a Garda.

Zube

Stealdo wrote: »

My point was simply that there are instructions provided for the three scenarios above - not for taking the first, second and third exits as was being suggested by most people posting.

True, but how many roundabouts are simple crossroads shapes as described in the ROR? What if there are two, three, five or six exits instead of four? Often the second exit is a left turn (i.e, it's before the straight - ahead), but it should be treated as a second exit, not a left-turn.

My point is only that the real-world application of the rules is not simple. Slig originally said:

Its very clearly defined in the rules of the road booklet but everybody seems to have their own take on it and get very p1ssy if you try to tell them otherwise, in particular taking the second exit from a roundabout.

I don't agree, since the ROR booklet covers only the simplest of roundabouts, it's been updated at least twice since I learnt the rules to say different things, and even experienced drivers who read the booklet can disagree about what it means in practice.

I mean, ffs, what does this mean: When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

That's suposed to be a rule?

Marcus.Aurelius

Zube wrote: »

It shows that route in red on a diagram, and says:

You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

• the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
• when directed by a Garda.

So all the roundabouts marked otherwise are wrong??

ROTR is an interpretation of law and does not reflect any type of sound driving style. Go to an advanced driving course and you have to forget most of what you were taught previously. It's utter rubbish

Zube

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

It's utter rubbish

This is precisely why Slig finds that people don't take kindly to being told they don't know how to use roundabouts.

chump

ignoring if roundabout is controlled with lights or provides particular guidance about what lane to be in...


I think the confusion boils down to the 12 o'clock 'guidance'
But the rules of the road refer to "Going straight ahead" when referring to the 2nd exit.
Therefore what should you do if the 2nd exit is after 12oclock?
Does that depend on how many 'other' exits there are?

I usually stay left lane if taking 1st or second exit, even if the second exit is after 12 o'clock.

I'm probably wrong! :pac:

Slig

chump wrote: »

ignoring if roundabout is controlled with lights or provides particular guidance about what lane to be in...


I think the confusion boils down to the 12 o'clock 'guidance'
But the rules of the road refer to "Going straight ahead" when referring to the 2nd exit.
Therefore what should you do if the 2nd exit is after 12oclock?
Does that depend on how many 'other' exits there are?

I usually stay left lane if taking 1st or second exit, even if the second exit is after 12 o'clock.

I'm probably wrong! :pac:

I'm with Chump:D

Stealdo

Zube wrote: »

My point is only that the real-world application of the rules is not simple.

I mean, ffs, what does this mean: When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

Fair enough - the more I read here the more I'm thinking that the earlier interpretation quoted above of "use common sense" might be the best description. It seems that the variations of roundabouts are so many that there is no way to give instuctions that will apply to all.

In that vein I always thought that the ROTR book was a guide to traffic law for the non legally minded, rather than having any basis in law themselves. i.e. I was not (am not) of the opinion that just because something is in the ROTR book that it is a law. Maybe one of the Traffic Core posters can tell us?

Hal1

chump wrote: »

ignoring if roundabout is controlled with lights or provides particular guidance about what lane to be in...


I think the confusion boils down to the 12 o'clock 'guidance'
But the rules of the road refer to "Going straight ahead" when referring to the 2nd exit.
Therefore what should you do if the 2nd exit is after 12oclock?
Does that depend on how many 'other' exits there are?

I usually stay left lane if taking 1st or second exit, even if the second exit is after 12 o'clock.

I'm probably wrong! :pac:

This was my understanding of it, but in the test I got a grade 2 fault for being in the 1st lane (left) with intention of travelling straight ahead. Imo I was in the right and I will continue to approach roundabouts this way as I think its far safer.

bman

I didn't know about the rule that if it's past 12 o'clock take the 2nd lane. Will do that from now on.

The one thing that annoys me is people taking the right lane when they are going straight through. Yesterday evening I had a lad in a van go alongside me straight through the roundabout in the right lane while I was in the left lane. He then decided to exit in the left lane! And then decided to beep me out of it!! The bloody cheek!

fitzgese

"When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it."

So how is this supposed to work in Walkinstown exactly?

Actually maybe they aren't 3 lanes at any of the entrances to the Walkinstown roundabout, I've only been there once, but how is it supposed to work?

DanThe

What really annoys me and is dangerous....

People in the lefthand lane who proceed to go and take the third or fourth exit. All the way around in the left lane!

Very inconvenent when you are "tippin on" in the right hand lane going straight through.

jimmycrackcorm

fitzgese wrote: »

"When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it."

So how is this supposed to work in Walkinstown exactly?

Actually maybe they aren't 3 lanes at any of the entrances to the Walkinstown roundabout, I've only been there once, but how is it supposed to work?

I was thinking of this when I started reading the thread. It's abysmal that the rotr doesn't give the common examples of two entry lanes and single exits and vice versa.

cyclopath2001

Stealdo wrote: »

In that vein I always thought that the ROTR book was a guide to traffic law for the non legally minded, rather than having any basis in law themselves. i.e. I was not (am not) of the opinion that just because something is in the ROTR book that it is a law. Maybe one of the Traffic Core posters can tell us?

You're correct on this point. It's not law in itself. It's not a legal document. It's well-intentioned and is mostly accurate, so should not be ignored unless you're quite confident you know better.

One matter to thing in mind about roundabouts is that the rules on overtaking are very relevant. That is, don't overtake on the inside except in slow moving traffic or if the vehicle to your right is stopped and turning right and, in general, don't overtake at all if to do so would cause inconvenience or endanger the safety of anyone else.

Many of the incidents I see on roundabouts are caused by bad overtaking.

Mitch Connor

fletch wrote: »

And you will get PLOWED out of it at this roundabout.
The 1st and 2nd lane are for the first exit ONLY and the 3rd lane is for all other exits.

Had a discussion on this very roundabout last night - a guy in a jeep at the front of the queue in the left lane, moved across to the middle at the last moment. (I was over on the right to go straight through to the M50 south bound) I said to my GF in the car that the guy in the jeep was clearly in the wrong lane, as there would be no reason for him to change from the left to the middle unless he thought he could go straight. She said I was wrong and that the middle lane could go left or straight. I said nope - road markings dicate left and middle lanes ONLY go left and only the right hand lane can go straight or back around. A nice little discussion followed that..... but I was right damn it!

Also, I hate that little round-about going into Dundrum, the two lane entry but one lane exit one that isn't actually big enough for two cars to use at the same time, ever.