Americans Picking and Choosing War Criminals to pardon

NedKelly

Saw a Program on Werner van Brawn and how he helped put Neil Armstrong on the moon in 1969 . As far as i know this was the guy that Designed the V1 and V2 Program.Am i correct in this ?

Manic Moran

Yes.

But I would argue that you would be incorrect if you are accusing him of being a war criminal.

NTM

ojewriej

It was called Operation Paperclip.

Altogether, about 1600 german scientist went to work for US after the war. And it's good thing they did, otherwise we could be speaking Russian today.

And as Manic Moran said - they weren't war criminals.

NedKelly

I disagree
Ferdinand Porsche (Porsche cars) was arrested in 1945 and put in jail as a war criminal for designing tanks and Motor armored stuff

He did no worse then Von Brawn??
who got brought to the USA and led a comfortable life

ojewriej

NedKelly wrote: »

I disagree
Ferdinand Porsche (Porsche cars) was arrested in 1945 and put in jail as a war criminal for designing tanks and Motor armored stuff

Porsche was arrested after a smear campaign launched by JP Peugeot. The reason was that French government asked Porsche to build an affordable car for french people, and Peugeot wanted to do it himself..

Porsche was held in prison for almost 2 years without a trial and then released. If they had anything they could charge him with, they would.

NedKelly

My Point exactly
do you think VOn Brawn would have been sent back to germany if he refused to co-operate

ojewriej

NedKelly wrote: »

My Point exactly
do you think VOn Brawn would have been sent back to germany if he refused to co-operate

I don't really see your point to be honest. Are you saying they should be arrested or they shouldn't?

Dr Strange

Just a quick correction. The name is Wernher von Braun...-not Brawn shudders

peasant

And another quick correction, von Braun wasn't exactly NOT a war criminal either.

Whatever about his scientific/engineering envolvement in constructing several types of rockets ...the factories in Peenemuende and elswhere relied heavily on forced slave labour, labourers picked from concentration camps would be literally worked to death there.

A fact of which he was very well aware and which he did nothing about. He is even said to have hand-picked some of the labourers himself on one occasion.


Elswhere, in the aftermath of the war, the allied occupying forces had no problem at all with imprisoning or even hanging of farmers or small factory owners who were found to have mistreated their POW/ concentration camp labourers ...in von Braun's case a very blind eye was turned.

Usual double standards. :rolleyes:

ojewriej

You do have a point, but once you start going down this road, it's very hard to stop.

What about German farmers using slave labour? American companies (Chase, Standard Oil, Ford, IBM) doing business with Nazis thorough the war? The whole IG Farben story? US Jewry refusing to help European Jews? Catholic Church helping Nazis to escape to South America? Swiss bankers handling money stolen from Jews? Soviets never being tried for their war crimes? The list goes on and they all got away with it.

What I'm saying is, it's easy to pass judgement 50 years later, having a luxury of peace, but living in a Nazi Germany is a whole different story.

And even if you'll forget all that - after the war threat from the Soviets was very real. The nuclear race was on, I don't blame Americans for securing any edge they could get.

peasant

ojewriej wrote: »

What about German farmers using slave labour? American companies (Chase, Standard Oil, Ford, IBM) doing business with Nazis thorough the war? The whole IG Farben story? US Jewry refusing to help European Jews? Catholic Church helping Nazis to escape to South America? Swiss bankers handling money stolen from Jews? Soviets never being tried for their war crimes? The list goes on and they all got away with it.

peasant wrote: »

Usual double standards. :rolleyes:

Most people are only ever "moral" when it suits their needs.
The same goes for governements, institutions, corporations.

Doesn't make a wrong less wrong though, just more generally acceptable.

kowloon

The useful fellows were recruited by one side or the other.
Morality never came into it.

NedKelly

Really did american companies to business with nazi Germany during the war ? i didnt know that.
have u any links i can read more on this
Roughan

kowloon

A lot of the CEOs of major US corporations were Nazi supporters. Ford being one of the most famous. The fellow who ran what is now Texaco aswell.
Dupont supplied the German explosives industry I believe.
Had a book with a lot of this in it. I think it was called Wages of War.

ojewriej

peasant wrote: »

Most people are only ever "moral" when it suits their needs.
The same goes for governements, institutions, corporations.

Doesn't make a wrong less wrong though, just more generally acceptable.

Perception of morality, and what's right and wrong changes at the time of war. I mean - it would be wrong to kill someone now, but what if this someone invaded my country? Would it be still wrong to kill him?

My point was, a lot of people did shamefull stuff during the war. And it's easy for us to judge them now - but are you 100% sure that you'd keep your moral standards if you were in this situation? I'm not, even though I'd like to think I would.

Obviously, the line has to be drawn somewhere - that's why no one would do business with Mengelr for example - but imo von Braun was a victim of circumstances. I believe his choice was work for Nazis or die, together with his family.

ojewriej

NedKelly wrote: »

Really did american companies to business with nazi Germany during the war ? i didnt know that.
have u any links i can read more on this
Roughan

Have a look here

http://www.profit-over-life.org/books/books.php?book=25&pageID=1&expand=no

It's quite awkward to read, but if you are interested in this subject, it's a start, it will give you an idea what keywords to look for.

Dinter

While I agree that some people's personal morals may have been shaped by fear of reprisals or sheer war fever it is a fact that the op is correct.

The allied armies only punished those who were of no benefit to them.

The only people who's morals really matter are the officers who drew up their export list.

We can debate whether or not they were right to do so or whether other people were worse or more "guilty". End of the day they were very selective in enforcing "justice".

ojewriej

That's fair enough, but calling him a war criminal is stretching it a bit imo.

His crime was being aware of the conditions slaves were working in, or at worst hand-picking them on one occasion. So for all we know, he might have actually saved them from almost certain death in a concentration camp.

Thousands if not millions german (not nazi - german) farmers did practicaly the same thing - would you call them war criminals?

Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from, but if we are talking abou unpunished war crimes - why start with someone so insignificant (war crimes wise)? Why not ask how come Germans were the only ones who ever faced War tribunals? How come soviets were never held accountable for what they did?

Again, what I'm saying is that it's not a matter of morals, but perspective. Sure, if you judge what he did by todays standards, it was horrible. But back then, much worse things were happening all over occupied europe on a daily basis. You couldn't possibly try to punish anyone who knew about slave labour and did nothing about it.

ejmaztec

ojewriej wrote: »

Obviously, the line has to be drawn somewhere - that's why no one would do business with Mengelr for example - but imo von Braun was a victim of circumstances. I believe his choice was work for Nazis or die, together with his family.

It's quite possible that there was some business done with Mengele. I read reports a few years ago that, although the Nazi medical experiments were totally inhumane and unethical, the end result was they had been carried out. I understand that certain Nazi medics were allowed to disappear in exchange for the files and data relating to those experiments being handed over to the allies, in particular the US.

Dinter

ojewriej wrote: »

Again, what I'm saying is that it's not a matter of morals, but perspective. Sure, if you judge what he did by todays standards, it was horrible. But back then, much worse things were happening all over occupied europe on a daily basis. You couldn't possibly try to punish anyone who knew about slave labour and did nothing about it.

Haha you're so right. The History channel had a documentary on a couple of weeks ago and it mentioned a Japanese officer who was executed for waterboarding prisoners of war!!

ojewriej

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's quite possible that there was some business done with Mengele. I read reports a few years ago that, although the Nazi medical experiments were totally inhumane and unethical, the end result was they had been carried out. I understand that certain Nazi medics were allowed to disappear in exchange for the files and data relating to those experiments being handed over to the allies, in particular the US.

Yeah, I read something about as well . The truth is that Nazis' research on people helped to advance medical research tremendously, particularly when it comes to effects of Hypothermia and Chemotherapy. I wouldn't be surprised, I would even say it's very likely that the deals were made.

What I meant though is that when it comes to the likes of Van Braun, it was all in the open really. Allies didn't think there is a need to hide this agreement, as they didn't see them as war criminals.

ejmaztec

ojewriej wrote: »

Yeah, I read something about as well too. The truth is that Nazis' research on people helped to advance medical research tremendously, particularly when it comes to effects of Hypothermia and Chemotherapy. I wouldn't be surprised, I would even say it's very likely that the deals were made.

What I meant though is that when it comes to the likes of Van Braun, it was all in the open really. Allies didn't think there is a need to hide this agreement, as they didn't see them as war criminals.

Oh yes, it wouldn't have been quite right, owning up to how they got their hands on a stack of new medical data.

I think that occasionally, the media would mutter something about Von Braun possibly having a Nazi past, but he was too valuable to the Americans, so they did their best to contradict or suppress any adverse reports.

marcsignal

Great book on this subject called

Hitlers Scientists, by John Cornwell Viking Press 2006

Well worth the read.

I think the most interesting case of a war criminal used by the Americans was a guy called Hubertus Strugold

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus_Strughold

He was up to his goolies (excuse the pun) in the Cold Water Experiments on prisoners in Dachau Concentration Camp, and the findings he sanctioned are still the basis for Aviation Medicine today. The C4 ? or BBC? Documentary 'The Wrong Stuff' (if you can find it on the web somewhere) dug up a lot of dirt on him. He ended his days enjoying a successful career in NASA, and was, with Von Braun, instrumental in the Moon Landings programme.

Stabshauptmann

ojewriej wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from, but if we are talking abou unpunished war crimes - why start with someone so insignificant (war crimes wise)? Why not ask how come Germans were the only ones who ever faced War tribunals? How come soviets were never held accountable for what they did?

Or bomber Harris

jmayo

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Or bomber Harris

FFS here we go again :rolleyes:

Albert Speer was in charge of production and should definetly have got a rope for all the slave labourers that died, but he didn't because he played ball with the Allies and he was an acceptable face of Nazism.
Klaus Barbie was protected as were many others who it was felt could help in working against Soviet controlled eastern Europe.

The Japanese also did their fair share of medical experiments on Chinese and Western POWS and some of the doctors went onto to have very sucessful careers in the medical sciences post war.