Rear ended at red light by british driver.

Steve

I've watched several replays of Hamilton rear-ending Kimi in today's F1.

Am I being cynical thinking that he swerved and hit Kimi rather than the other car (once he realised he was up sh*t creek and couldn't stop)?

I think it's all a bit too convienient....:eek:

He got a 10 place penalty for France as a reward.:D

If it happened in Ireland, Kimi would be going for a whiplash claim for sure.:pac:

unkel

Moved to Motorsport

kmart6

Nah,think he was trying to avoid the two of them by swerving around to the left but wasn't quick enough!

IMO McLaren should have to pay for all damages to the Ferrari car due to the stupidity of the crash!

Steve

That's what it seemed like, I'm not convinced though.

Pic here:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/6/7898.html

robinph

Nah, he was just trying to avoid the pair of them and there was more space to the left of the pit lane. Or was Rosberg delibrately trying to take out Hamilton as well? The other two should probably not have been side by side heading down the pit lane either though but not seen too many replays of the bit where Ferrari relesed Raikonenn.

There are far too many things wrong with the way the pit lane opens and closes due to the saftey car at the moment though which they could do with sorting out as well.

Alun

robinph wrote: »

There are far too many things wrong with the way the pit lane opens and closes due to the saftey car at the moment though which they could do with sorting out as well.

I agree. What is the sense of a) opening the pit lane, and at the same time b) closing the exit? Doesn't make much sense to me. The only thing I can think of would be if the SC was passing the pit exit at the time, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. The cars involved were directly behind the SC when they pitted, and were in and out in much less time than it would take the SC to get back around to the pit area again.

Steve

Alun wrote: »

I agree. What is the sense of a) opening the pit lane, and at the same time b) closing the exit? Doesn't make much sense to me. The only thing I can think of would be if the SC was passing the pit exit at the time, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. The cars involved were directly behind the SC when they pitted, and were in and out in much less time than it would take the SC to get back around to the pit area again.

The SC had passed but the red light stays on till the last car in the parade has passed.
They pitted from the front of the pack and refueled while the rest of the pack was passing - they got to the pit lane exit about 3-4 seconds before the last car passed. The light went green about a second after the crash.

robinph

Would not have been an issue though if they didn't stop people from entering the pit lane prior to that though.

Wasn't part of the reason for stopping them entering the pits when the SC came out because of too many people trying to enter it at the same time, but if they are allowed to enter just as the SC heads out onto track then they are far more seperated from each other than they were on the pit lane re-opening yesterday. When you have the six leaders go into the pits that close together there was always going to be a crash at some point before they come out the other end. Even if they had all stopped at the light properly, once it went green there would have been a crash before they rejoined the track proper again.

Alun

stevec wrote: »

The SC had passed but the red light stays on till the last car in the parade has passed.

OK that would explain it, rules-wise, but why is that specific rule there in the first place?

It still doesn't make too much sense unless they're worried about tussling for position within the parade when a car exits the pits. I assume then that they then also put the pitlane exit lights to red again when the parade comes round on the next lap(s)?

vincenzolorenzo

Alun wrote: »

OK that would explain it, rules-wise, but why is that specific rule there in the first place?

It still doesn't make too much sense unless they're worried about tussling for position within the parade when a car exits the pits. I assume then that they then also put the pitlane exit lights to red again when the parade comes round on the next lap(s)?

The rule about the pit lane closing/opening under safety car conditions was brought about because of safety concerns. In the past as soon as the safety car was deployed a lot of drivers would get to the pits as quickly as possible and often would be going past an accident scene with marshals on the track at full speed. One memorable incident where it all went tits up was Brazil 03 when alonso came flying up the hill and straight in the debris from webber's crash. Caused the race to be red flagged and Jordan ended up winning it.

So my understanding now is that the pit lane remains closed while the marshals are on the track and that it only reopens once things have been cleared, which presumably would be on the safety car's last lap anyway. The rule can be very unfair if a driver is due to come in on the lap when the pits close as happened to Heidfeld earlier in the year.

Steve

The rule is: If you pit under the safety car then you have to rejoin at the back of the pack. i.e. last.

I don't really understand the logic of pitting under a safety car unless they were running on fumes.

Rules

40.6 From the time at which the "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" message is displayed no car may enter the pit lane for the purpose of refuelling until all cars on the track have formed up in a line behind the safety car and the message "PIT LANE OPEN" is shown on the timing monitors. A ten second time penalty (see Article 16.3b) will be imposed on any driver who enters the pit lane and whose car is refuelled before the second message is shown on the timing monitors.

40.11 Subject to the requirements of 40.6 above, whilst the safety car is in operation, competing cars may enter the pit lane, but may only rejoin the track when the green light at the end of the pit lane is on. It will be on at all times except when the safety car and the line of cars following it are about to pass or are passing the pit exit. A car rejoining the track must proceed at an appropriate speed until it reaches the end of the line of cars behind the safety car.

vincenzolorenzo

Its usually a big advantage to pit under safety car conditions because you essentially get a 'free' pitstop. The whole field gets bunched up so when you emerge from the pits you come up to the back of the train of cars with everyone in front of you needing to stop, by which time you'll be back up to full racing speed and will get past loads of them while they're in the pits

Steve

How is it an advantage?

If you're near the front and then pit, you end up last - at least 30 seconds behind the leader with the whole pack in front. I don't understand your logic there.

OK if you're near the back, you don't lose much and gain a refuel + new rubber.

It's expecially bad if e.g. Kubica with a 25S lead has just enough of a window to pit and not lose out - if SC was deployed then then he'd have been screwed.

Biro

I reckon he swerved to hit Kimi. He turned full lock to the left, then last minute straightened the wheel rather than keeping it left to avoid. I don't like him, he has a hidden persona that results in moves like that one.

vincenzolorenzo

Its an advantage cos everyone else has to pit as well. So even if you end up at the back of the pack you'll very quickly find yourself at the front of the pack when they all pit.

So yesterday kubica and the leaders pitted while drivers further down the field who were on a one stopper didn't. So the likes of coulthard then inherited the lead but when they stopped the natural order was restored and kubica retook the lead. He was on a two stopper so used his extra speed to open up a gap so that he could fit in a second stop and still keep the lead over heidfeld. If Kubica didn't stop under the safety car then when he stopped under racing conditions he would have emerged down the field in say 6th or 8th place, because the field would then be bunched up after following the safety car and would have to try and get the lead by overtaking on the track. Which wouldn't be possible. So if the safety car is deployed anywhere near a pit window it nearly always pays to stop while the SC is on track.

robinph

Don't know where your seeing that he straightened up just to possibly take Raikonnen out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbPGZCEzIQ

He's just putting on full left and keeping it there and running out of space to stop/ get around the left of the Ferrari.

Anyway, you don't delibrately take out the other title contenders this early in the season. Just running into the back of him would in no way guarantee that you take the other car out, doing that manouver can only be certain to take yourself out of the race as the rear ends of the cars are far more likely to survive those impacts than the front wing of your own is.

If it was the last race of the season with only a couple of points in it then you might have a case, but not now. It was just a case of too many people in too small a space, some of them watching a traffic light and the others watching the multiple cars infront of them, just badly.

Biro

At 3:43 he's beginning to turn left, at 3:44 he's full left, at 3:45 he's back straight and at 3:46 the impact happens. Why not keep it locked left?

Steve

I think he genuinely made a mistake and realised it was too late to stop.
He then had a split second decision:
1. Avoid both (which I think he could have done)
2. Hit Kubica
3. Hit Kimi.

If he chose 1 then he'd get a 10s stop/go for breaking the light and hand Kimi the race.
If he chose 2 then he'd likely take himself and Kubica out and hand Kimi the race.
Tactically, 3 was the best option.

If it was on a starting grid and someone had stalled that close in front, he would have avoided them.

Compare this to the Schumacher incedent when he 'hit' the wall in qualifying and ended the session - similar tactical play IMO made out to be driver error.

If I'm right, then it was brilliantly executed.

EDIT:
From the clip, Lewis seems to be in full control through the collision. Most drivers let go the steering wheel just before a front impact so they don't risk breaking a wrist.

vincenzolorenzo

Have you noticed though that for some reason whenever hamilton is in a crash he doesn't let go of the wheel. See the links below:

Nurburgring 07: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP1DRq5zXfY
Bahrain 08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcjCajW22O0

By rights he should let go but doesn't.

For what its worth I don't think he could have avoided raikkonen. He didn't realise until it was too late and just didn't have enough distance to brake. If you look back over the video clips you'll see he had his wheels locked, so he was actually braking hard and he only straightens the steering wheel AFTER the initial impact so I don't reckon it was deliberate at all. Oh and in case you think I'm a big fan of hamilton, I'm not. I'd much rather see a Ferrari or BMW driver win the championship this year.

robinph

Biro wrote: »

At 3:43 he's beginning to turn left, at 3:44 he's full left, at 3:45 he's back straight and at 3:46 the impact happens. Why not keep it locked left?

I don't think you can take the movements of his head as the point of impact though as the wing will have already hit before that happens. And if there was so much space and time to get around the parked cars then how come Rosberg didn't manage it either and he was starting from even further back so had more time to of noticed the red light/ stationary cars. They were both distracted by the cars being parked side by side, were not expecting that or the light to be red so therefore ended up crashing.

dsmythy

Biro wrote: »

I reckon he swerved to hit Kimi. He turned full lock to the left, then last minute straightened the wheel rather than keeping it left to avoid. I don't like him, he has a hidden persona that results in moves like that one.

My opinion would go up on him if he ever revealed it to be on purpose. That's what i loved about Schumi that "any which way" attitude. It's great drama.

Unfortunately i think Hamilton just showed us again that under pressure he is prone to mistakes. He needs another year or so to get that rookieness out of him. I'd love to see Kubica driving the same car as him to compare.

Alun

Didn't Massa get disqualified last year for "not seeing" that very same red light? (Fisichella too IIRC).

Alun

dsmythy wrote: »

My opinion would go up on him if he ever revealed it to be on purpose. That's what i loved about Schumi that "any which way" attitude. It's great drama.

Funny ... that's (one of the many, many reasons) why I intensely disliked him. Each to his own I suppose, but I can't see how anyone can admire someone for deliberately cheating.

Ghost Train

bad mistake by hamilton, wasn't deliberate though, a lot going on in the pit lane, kubica and kimi were racing down the pit lane and braked quite sharp, hamilton didn't react quick enough

was a bit of karma for kimi for the mistake he made in monaco, force india and sutil really suffered

hard luck on heidfield, hes been with sauber for years now and would have been fitting for him to get their first win, great drive with a heavy fuel load, hopefully he will get a win before the year is out. Great race by Kubica, good to see BMW make that step with sauber

vincenzolorenzo

I was glad to see Kubica get the win but I did feel for heidfeld as well though. Reminded me of Nurburgring 99 when Herbert won for Stewart even though it was Barrichello that had been there right from the very start of the team. Still a 1-2 for BMW was a great result. Hopefully they can keep it going now and challenge for the title

Biro

robinph wrote: »

I don't think you can take the movements of his head as the point of impact though as the wing will have already hit before that happens. And if there was so much space and time to get around the parked cars then how come Rosberg didn't manage it either and he was starting from even further back so had more time to of noticed the red light/ stationary cars. They were both distracted by the cars being parked side by side, were not expecting that or the light to be red so therefore ended up crashing.

I think in this case you can, as there is a full second between him straightening the wheel and the impact. Unless the front wing is about 5 metres long!
Also, if you're heading towards stationary cars and don't notice they're stationary, then it's a mistake. If you're following a moving car then realise he's hit stationary cars, then it's harder to stop. Still a mistake, but easier to make.

Biro

eolhc wrote: »

bad mistake by hamilton, wasn't deliberate though, a lot going on in the pit lane, kubica and kimi were racing down the pit lane and braked quite sharp, hamilton didn't react quick enough

was a bit of karma for kimi for the mistake he made in monaco, force india and sutil really suffered

hard luck on heidfield, hes been with sauber for years now and would have been fitting for him to get their first win, great drive with a heavy fuel load, hopefully he will get a win before the year is out. Great race by Kubica, good to see BMW make that step with sauber

I accept what you're saying about Heidfield alright, but it would have been unjust had he won instead of Kubica. Kubica has tried hard all season, has had a much better season, and a far, far superior race on Sunday than Heidfield.

robinph

Biro wrote: »

I think in this case you can, as there is a full second between him straightening the wheel and the impact. Unless the front wing is about 5 metres long!
Also, if you're heading towards stationary cars and don't notice they're stationary, then it's a mistake. If you're following a moving car then realise he's hit stationary cars, then it's harder to stop. Still a mistake, but easier to make.

They were not stationary though. From the overhead shot there is no sign at all of him changing direction inorder to hit Raikonnen at the last moment rather than Kubica, once he appears in the shot he's moving over to the left assuming that Raikonnen is going to go past Kubica who is closer to stopping at that point so probably assuming that he'll just follow Raikonnen past him. Kubica does not actually come to a stop until Hamilton is almost level with him.

Oh, and that full second in that YouTube video is probably only about half or quarter of a second really as that is slowed down footage.

f1dan

kmart6 wrote: »

IMO McLaren should have to pay for all damages to the Ferrari car due to the stupidity of the crash!

Did Ferrari pay Force India for Kimi's crash in Monaco? No, so why should McLaren pay here?

kmart6

Biro wrote: »

Kubica has tried hard all season, has had a much better season, and a far, far superior race on Sunday than Heidfield.

Everyone try's hard every race,doesn't mean they deserve to win though! Only had a superior race due to team orders!

Ghost Train

kmart6 wrote: »

Everyone try's hard every race,doesn't mean they deserve to win though! Only had a superior race due to team orders!

i think kubica would have got past eventually, but i guess heidfield could have held him up long enough to make the differance if he wanted too. Not really the way the team works though, two different strategies, kubica being held up, made sense for the heidfield to let him past (for the team)... would be interesting to know how much of it is teams orders/heidfield team spirit/kubica overtaking. Looked like heidfield moved over for him.

kmart6

It's exactly how the team works,someone like Heidfield always has team orders to let they're team mate by! It's the way it's allways been!

Biro

kmart6 wrote: »

Everyone try's hard every race,doesn't mean they deserve to win though! Only had a superior race due to team orders!

You're very wrong there! Watch the race again, with your eyes open this time!