Why are the Opposition Supporting the Government?

dresden8

Question related to, but not about the Lisbon Treaty.

Why are the opposition actively campaigning for a yes vote?

It there’s a no vote Cowen will get lambasted for not being able to bring the country with him. If there is a yes vote Cowen will take and use that as a vindication of FF and his new leadership.

One would imagine that FG, Labour etc. would be building up a war-chest to fight the local and national elections. Instead they’re spending money to put Enda’s Ming the Merciless lookalike pictures up for a cause they will not gain electorally from.

Is it all really to get their faces up on lamp-posts. Why are they taking orders from Cowen to do their bit for Lisbon, and thereby legitimise his leadership of the country?

And I don't believe it's because they're good Europeans. Opposition politics should be about sticking it to the Government all the time, make them look incompetent and unpopular, not support them in areas where they will gain kudos.

From where I stand it makes no sense at all. If Lisbon passes, Cowen wins, if Lisbon fails, they have all failed, they have no comeback on Cowen. In the event of a no vote next Thursday they should be chasing Cowen out of the Dail, now, who cares?

mike65

Because FG and Lab are bigger than that?

Mike.

dresden8

Because they're bigger than that they've been out of power for 11 years. If all they can do is support the government it really is time to pack in the towel and join FF.

mike65

The establishment views Lisbon as being in the National Interest so they back it. Its not a mystery.

Mike

kaki

To me, FF and FG are intrinsically the same. I've studied Irish history, I know about the origins of both, and why they consider themselves the inverse of eachother. But they stand (to me) for the same things, are the two most right-wing (aside from the PD's probably), and my fickle teenage mind cannot see the point of their existance. Amalgamete them, I say!

More seriously, given that the power of government will lie in either with FF or FG at any particular point in time, I'd be very worried if either were so petty as to engage in a game of simon says in something so important as an EU treaty. For whatever their own reasons may be, I'd hope FG and Labour at least believe that a Yes vote is a positive outcome.

dresden8

The establishment just about sums it up.

But still, why are the opposition putting themselves out there to fight the government's fight when there's nothing in it for them?

gordon_gekko

they support it because they know its whats best for the country , the country is bigger than partisan politics , there not cynical like sinn fein who are only opposed to the treaty because it gives them more attention than if they were just another small party who were in favour of it

its worked for the shinners though , there up 2 points in the polls today , parties like sinn fein have to go against the mainstream in order to stay relevant , i mean when have you ever heard sinn fein all concerned about the possibility of our corporation tax going up

Riddle101

I'd say it would be for mutual gain really. I mean c'mon just because they're the opposition, dosen't mean they have to vote differently. FG and Labour obviously see this as something important for Ireland, not just for their own benefit, they know that this thing is big, and that they must work together with a common enemy(Fianna Fail) against another even bigger enemy(The No vote) Don't worry, once this is all over, FF and FG will be back to their own selves, i'd say if the No vote wins then they'll be in the Dail the next day blaming each other over why they lost, if Yes wins then they'll just be arguing as usual.

BTW Don't FG and Labour have MEPs in the EU so maybe they are listening to them

dresden8

I don't buy the "Politician follows conscience and does something for the good of the country" arguement.

I still don't get it.

ninty9er

kaki wrote: »

To me, FF and FG are intrinsically the same. I've studied Irish history, I know about the origins of both, and why they consider themselves the inverse of eachother. But they stand (to me) for the same things, are the two most right-wing (aside from the PD's probably), and my fickle teenage mind cannot see the point of their existance. Amalgamete them, I say!

More seriously, given that the power of government will lie in either with FF or FG at any particular point in time, I'd be very worried if either were so petty as to engage in a game of simon says in something so important as an EU treaty. For whatever their own reasons may be, I'd hope FG and Labour at least believe that a Yes vote is a positive outcome.

We are the same as each other in laymans terms, but FG are more rightwing, whereas FF stand slighlty left of centre. Politics these days is about adapting and that's where European partys have failed and Irish ones have copped on. You can be both left and right wing depending on the issues and the circumstances.

The only reason not to amalgamate is to ensure that complete crackpots will never be the foundation of a government.

On the question itself. The opposition is doing the electorate a disservice if it opposes something so blatantly in the public and national interest

dresden8

But it doesn't have to oppose. It just has to say it broadly agrees and then leave the government to get its own policy through.

If it goes through, they can claim they helped it through, if it fails they can lay the blame at FF's door. Win win.

As it is now, they are playing a lose lose.

I still don't get it.

RATM

ninty9er wrote: »

we Are The Same As Each Other In Laymans Terms, But Fg Are More Rightwing, whereas Ff Stand Slighlty Left Of Centre.

Lol!!!

SeanW

dresden8 wrote: »

But it doesn't have to oppose. It just has to say it broadly agrees and then leave the government to get its own policy through.

If it goes through, they can claim they helped it through, if it fails they can lay the blame at FF's door. Win win.

As it is now, they are playing a lose lose.

I still don't get it.

Could it perhaps be that they - quite simply - believe that the Lisbon Treaty is a good and/or necessary thing and are doing what they think is right and eschewing any policy of pursuing political expediency?

From what I've seen, Fine Gael has promoted principled politics in recent years. So I am paying some attention to their Yes campaign.

Rossibaby

supposedly the majority of rank and file members of labour wanted a 'no' vote, the leadership were adament for a 'yes' vote...it even went like that in the youth movement,where the results were so close on yes or no that they decided not to support either.

FG are a bit laughable to be honest, you may say they are doing this for the good of the country and fully backing cowen...but i saw one of there cllr's getting stuck into cowen over the treaty and his lack of action on certain issues and lack of action in securing a yes vote...since FG want a yes vote is it not hteir responsibility aswell?

anyways, would be one happy man if the people returned a no vote with FF,FG and labour on the yes side it would be a big blow to them.its a lot closer than they would have liked right now:o

gordon_gekko

Rossibaby wrote: »

supposedly the majority of rank and file members of labour wanted a 'no' vote, the leadership were adament for a 'yes' vote...it even went like that in the youth movement,where the results were so close on yes or no that they decided not to support either.

FG are a bit laughable to be honest, you may say they are doing this for the good of the country and fully backing cowen...but i saw one of there cllr's getting stuck into cowen over the treaty and his lack of action on certain issues and lack of action in securing a yes vote...since FG want a yes vote is it not hteir responsibility aswell?

anyways, would be one happy man if the people returned a no vote with FF,FG and labour on the yes side it would be a big blow to them.its a lot closer than they would have liked right now:o

if the NO vote wins , it will be mainly down to the fact that good ol fashioned , small minded , short sighted , petty spite and begrudgery is alive and well in ireland
i still love the place but we are a strange bunch

The_Minister

SeanW wrote: »

From what I've seen, Fine Gael has promoted principled politics in recent years. So I am paying some attention to their Yes campaign.

*Laughs*

Rossibaby wrote: »

supposedly the majority of rank and file members of labour wanted a 'no' vote, the leadership were adament for a 'yes' vote...it even went like that in the youth movement,where the results were so close on yes or no that they decided not to support either.

That isn't true, Labour Youth voted to support the treaty, and are actively supporting it.

Rossibaby

or maybe it has somethign to do with when the government is asked a genuine question on this issue they give a ''shut up and vote yes we're you're government'' type of responce...sure look at bertie calling us loolaa's for voting no...the government have been far too arrogant,and it has nothing to od with small-mindedness.if the government went about themselves in a better manner and respected the people they could have got a huge yes vote...sadly our government are a disgrace

djpbarry

Rossibaby wrote: »

or maybe it has somethign to do with when the government is asked a genuine question on this issue they give a ''shut up and vote yes we're you're government'' type of responce...

Care to provide an example of one such response?

jmayo

I reckon FG and Labour are both urging a Yes vote because they do not want to be seen turning this into a political football.

If they opposed the referendum and it was defeated then they would be blamed by the government (the bigwigs in the EU and other countries governments which would not be good long term when they eventually get into power and they will) whereas if they support it and it is defeated most of the blame will fall on the parties in power who cocked up the organising of the referendum and the pro debate.

There are probably lots of members of all parties that are anti treaty but they are toild by leadership to tow the party line ala biffo's remark.
I would bet a lot of the main players in government parties just don't want to be seen by their EU counterparts as the ones that wreck the EU party and cause another few years of endless boring meetings trying to hammer out another cobbled together treaty/constitution.

singloud

well done i say


shows they are capable of joining with FF when they think they need to

sovtek

jmayo wrote: »

I reckon FG and Labour are both urging a Yes vote because they do not want to be seen turning this into a political football.

I would say that it's because all the major parties buy into the elite ideology of neoliberalism, like most mainstream European parties, and also mainly represent powerful interest instead of people.

brianthebard

FG are supporting the treaty because they are part of the wider European christian democrat group. I don't know why labour are supporting it, perhaps they want to keep the big boys on side so they have a chance of being a coalition partner come the next election.

djpbarry

brianthebard wrote: »

FG are supporting the treaty because they are part of the wider European christian democrat group. I don't know why labour are supporting it, perhaps they want to keep the big boys on side so they have a chance of being a coalition partner come the next election.

Or maybe, just maybe, both Labour and FG think that the Lisbon Treaty represents a good deal? Why does there have to be an ulterior motive?

brianthebard

I'm not saying its an ulterior motive, just that FG are part of the CD group, and therefore believe its a good idea. I don't get why labour are behind it though.

sovtek

djpbarry wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe, both Labour and FG think that the Lisbon Treaty represents a good deal? Why does there have to be an ulterior motive?

I'm sure they think it's a good deal...for whom I have no doubts.

gordon_gekko

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm not saying its an ulterior motive, just that FG are part of the CD group, and therefore believe its a good idea. I don't get why labour are behind it though.

labour are a legitimite choice as goverment partner , they dont appeal to the protest vote which sinn fein do or joe higgins
besides , sinn fein like all extreme partys always take the opposing possition to the mainstream as they get more traction out of it , were sinn fein to be in favour of the treaty , they would be just another small party like labour and would have simply faded into the backround , its worked for them , they got a bounce in the last polls