Ireland's Forward Oriented Game Plan, Successful?

RugbyFanatic

Just wondering, for years we have seen Munster play a forwards game and to a large degree it is highly successful. I have enjoyed many great Munster wins from playing through this style but come the Summer and Autumn tests and of course the 6 nations I begin to see the faults of constantly playing a forwards game.

The fact is that we dominate the HEC because not many other clubs can say they have a complete international pack who have been playing together for years and in that sense the forward game works for us because we are rarely outmuscled.

But, when it comes to international standard Munster are simply average and struggle to dominate against packs such as Wales! Now this is nothing to be ashamed of because not dominating doesn't mean struggling but what I am saying is on a whole when stepping up to international levels our pack is good nothing more.

So why oh why do we rely so heavily on a forwards game whenever Ireland are playing? And I am not just referring to today by the way. The fact is that when the forward play isn't working instead of giving it to the backs we just keep plugging away!

Its a shame to see players like O'Driscoll,Kearney,Horgan rarely getting any attacking possession just like with Dowling at Munster who I feel has so much potential but just doesn't receive enough ball.

I don't know whether it is the huge amount of Munster men in the team that causes us to play the Munster game but for whatever reason O'Gara rarely passes outside him. Its forward work and O'Gara's tatical kicking. We want to do it all ourselves and while I would love it if Munster's men were able to do it all themselves (:D) unfortnately were not.

Against the Barbarians we played beautiful attacking rugby at times. Yes their defence was a disgrace but some of the offloading, steps etc. were magnificent. Similiarly when Ireland were at her best was during that faithful November season where we beat Australia and South Africa playing champagane backline rugby with a mix of forward play.

Luke Fitzgerald, Kearney, Dowling, Bowe these guys are all looking to be excellent prospects but I really feel they are going to be wasted.

I feel we never got the best out of O'Driscoll because of this forward oriented game plan and it has cost us many games.

Would you prefer to see us continuing the munster game plan or would you prefer us to utilize both the backs and forwards to our fullest advantage?

Inquitus

Well it was hardly a day for free flowing rugby, and I am certain they would have played differentally in different conditions.

RugbyFanatic

cheers for reading the entire thread before responding.

And I am not just referring to today by the way

irishbucsfan

We have to play to our strengths at all times. And today that style of rugby was our strength.

I do want to see the backs used, but Irish rugby lives on its forwards, and I cant see that changing.

dc69

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

The fact is that we dominate the HEC because not many other clubs can say they have a complete international pack who have been playing together for years and in that sense the forward game works for us because we are rarely outmuscled.

But, when it comes to international standard Munster are simply average and struggle to dominate against packs such as Wales!

You hit the nail on the head,we dont have a pack that can dominate teams on the international scene.We do however have backs that can Dominate teams on the international scene,I would be of the opinion that we utilise the backs as much as possible at every oppertunity.

Obv,today was a day for the fowards but against AUS,I would be dissapointed not to see the backs let free,weather permitting.

Sherifu

I'd like to see the backs more involved but it has to start with a good platform from the forwards. There's nothing as satisfying as seeing the whole team attack as a unit.

figs86

the old saying ''forwards win matches, backs decide by how much'' is still true I think until you reach the international stage, where things are usually so tight up front and defensive systems are so effective now a moment of briliance or a well sold dummy is a game winner. Like Cedric Heymans amazing chip-chase-chip-set-up-donguy in the Heineken Cup Final

NaiveMelodies

Dont really think Irelands game has been overly forward orientated in general, except for this season.
Our backs in the RWC and the 6 nations were a disgrace, and id put this down to the chopping and changing.
However, previous seasons, 6 nations 2007 in particular, our backs were as vital as our forwards.

We currently have fantastic prospects in our back line.. Kearney was excellent today and in the 6 nations, Fitzgerald, Reddan.

I hope we see a change this Saturday in australia, with decent conditions.
Your right tho, the Munster pack will not win is any titles on the international stage.

Stev_o

Sorry but if you'v ever played in those conditions you ll now that its pointless throwing the ball wide. Iv played in similar conditions on what was a pitch but turned instantly into 100m long mud patch if you throw it about the ball will spill you loose ground you loose the match so you attempt to gain yards through pick and drive maul and then the fly half will garryowen or punt it, happens everywhere no point trying to discuss it

RugbyFanatic

Stev_o wrote: »

Sorry but if you'v ever played in those conditions you ll now that its pointless throwing the ball wide. Iv played in similar conditions on what was a pitch but turned instantly into 100m long mud patch if you throw it about the ball will spill you loose ground you loose the match so you attempt to gain yards through pick and drive maul and then the fly half will garryowen or punt it, happens everywhere no point trying to discuss it

Its clear you didn't bother reading my post! I wasn't talking about todays game in specific!

RugbyFanatic

only1stevo wrote: »

Dont really think Irelands game has been overly forward orientated in general, except for this season.
Our backs in the RWC and the 6 nations were a disgrace .

Same with our forwards yet we still use them all the time!

I just feel that we should be using our strengths and for whatever reason we keep neglecting our backline instead opting for pick and drive that gives us little change.

We should be using a combination of backline play and forwards!

Our backline has the ability to turn games, our forwards though very solid simply don't and I don't think we should rely on them so much

marco_polo

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Same with our forwards yet we still use them all the time!

I just feel that we should be using our strengths and for whatever reason we keep neglecting our backline instead opting for pick and drive that gives us little change.

We should be using a combination of backline play and forwards!

Our backline has the ability to turn games, our forwards though very solid simply don't and I don't think we should rely on them so much

We used to use them alot more prior to the world cup last year when it all went wrong. I think that once the teams confidence went south they seemed to revert to playing a less risky forward dominated game. I have an open mind as to whether this was a deliberate tactical approach or not.

This thread got me thinking, can you believe it has been only 15-16 months since we put 8 tries up on Italy in Rome .

RugbyFanatic

marco_polo wrote: »

We used to use them alot more prior to the world cup last year when it all went wrong. I think that once the teams confidence went south they seemed to revert to playing a less risky forward dominated game. I have an open mind as to whether this was a deliberate tactical approach or not.

This thread got me thinking, can you believe it has been only 15-16 months since we put 8 tries up on Italy in Rome .

I know its really amazing how much we have stagnated!!

Whether its subconcious or not unfortunately we lost our confidence and decided to start playing it safe at all costs. This will never win us the big games.

bleg

haven't read the posts but anything other than a forward orientated gameplan today would have been ridiculous in those conditions in fairness.

can the old munster way of forward oreintated play work on the international stage? of course not. that died with england's world cup win. 1-15 all have to function and work properly. a forward orientated game plan wouldn't even work in the HC (given prime conditions)

we went out there and played the conditions, so did NZ, that's why we saw so little back play and so much kicking from both teams

[Jackass]

Well if you're talking about Ireland today against NZ and suggesting we should have gone to the backs, then yes, I think the forwards game is the right way.

But I think we play to our strengths, opposition weakness and conditions, like most teams, so i don't think we have a set game plan to always use our forwards regardless.

In fact if we did stick to a forwards game against the minnows in the world cup we probably wouldn't have been humiliated and would have won by a far bigger margin and more convinvcingly instead of trying to force the game through our backs and putting them in positions where we wouldn't normally try big moves and tricks against a team we showed respect to.

A good example of when we got it right and relied on backs rugby was against Italy in 2007 Six nations. Perfect conditions, didn't take them on up front and ran in 6 trys or so.

If you want an example of what forwards rugby and a good No.10 can do at international rugby, watch England in the 2003 world cup.

quagmire69

i'd like to say it would work, but international rugby is too big a step up for that considering our pack ain't that great.

A free flowing back game does not suit us as we don't have the right players to pull it off, O'Gara cant play that sort of a game on the international stage. He is not the best operator on the back foot. It would help greatly if we had a 12 with great distribution skills, not too many of them floating about on the irish stage though.

For the present I think our best bet is to try freshen up the pack when all are fit. I'd have Cullen or Casey in with POC for next season anyway. Jennings/O'Connor is a must at 7 too, would drop leamy and put wallace to 6. Buckley has to start really, Hayes playing on is not doing us any favours in the long run. Have to go one step backwards to take 2 forwards kind of thing.

Diamondmaker

marco_polo wrote: »

This thread got me thinking, can you believe it has been only 15-16 months since we put 8 tries up on Italy in Rome .

A certain amount of this change could be down to no Denis Hickie.

He was always willing to make a break from deep carving a defence and therforecreating some options and some space on the field.

Kearney is now stepping up to do this but has not got he lightening pace that the old man had and still had, on retiring. We are literally just missing an all out strike runner.
All the flack Tommy Bowe is getting is not justified..... but we have no speed merchant Shane Williams, Rokoko, Denis Hickie, Simon Geoghan... etc in the squad anymore and at the same time our back play has dropped in effectivness.

I put a certain amount of this down to our loss of Hickie ( pace ).

Oh and specificaly back to the OP. My answer is NO. Ireland were at their best over the last few years when the backs were on fire. Whenever the backs go into hibernation or mis fire a la this season, we look very average and mid tier 6N team.
Its got to be evidence enough we need the backs to perform to perfomr as a team. It is very true how the Munster pack as an international pack will boss many club packs, but up against all internatinal packs that advantage is not there.

themont85

O'Gara isn't at the same level of other international fly halfs at spurring on backs such as Carter, Cipriani, Hook or Michalek, we also don't have the speed of other teams. He's great playing the percentages game, kicking corners and doing the basics. He's improved but limited i feel. Unfortunately we don't have a pack good enough or dynamic to play the really forwards game at this level. The Munster guys just don't bring the same level to Ireland as they do in the HC. I think the decision to ignore Gleeson has been a major downfall for Irish rugby, we lack that link man needed in heaslip we could have one but he's not as effective behind a underperforming tight 5. If Buckley can get his scrum sorted we've got a great ball carrying prop there. Hopefully Cian Healy breaks through next year, he could be a 10 year plus addition at prop. Our coaching of forwards needs to improve, POC as quality as he is can get better. Improving his hands is a must. I really wish there was someone to replace Horan, he's grand for Munster but out of his depth at international level imo.

For years we've relied on O'Driscoll, Darcy and Hickie but O'Driscoll is going through a bad season, Darcy is always injured and Hickey retired. Hickie I think is such a loss, we lack internaional pedigree speed out there. We have some smart and canny wings such as Horgan, Bowe and Dowling but they don't have the potent speed needed. Hickie had both.

thehighground

Denis Hickie is the big miss in both the Leinster & Ireland back line.

As regards the Munster pack - wouldn't write them off completely like some are here ... Quinlan would have made a huge difference today. Tipoki & Mafi are very willing to get down and dirty and Howlett and Ian Dowling don't risk getting hypothermia out on the wing - unlike Bowe & Horgan they come in looking for work.

Kearney is class.

Diamondmaker

thehighground wrote: »

unlike Bowe & Horgan they come in looking for work.

Kearney is class.

Horgan spends a ot of time in rucks. I even commented it last night. I dont think it is accuarte at all to say Horgan does not come in looking for work. He is renowned for it.

dc69

Hickie +1

Agree regards the munster pack on the Irish scene to an extent,Im not munsters biggest supporter but their fowards are unbelievable for them and have done Ireland proud on the international stage for many years inc today imo,they couldnt have given any more and the fact that heaslip was anonymouse didnt help.

It will be really interesting to see what Kidney will do with the team,we are going through a period of change and as an above post said,we may have to take 2 steps back too take 1 foward.

Buckley over hayes is must and hopefully heally will come through,the problem I foresee,dont healy and buckley play the same side?

Could healy be changed at this stage,to the other side?

Do we have any speedsters coming up in any of the provinces?

Leinster's only one is Vasily Artemiev as far as im aware,i have been told he is really fast but have only seen him years ago and he doesnt look like hes gona be good enough anyway.

Is earls fast?

Podge_irl

dc69 wrote: »

Buckley over hayes is must and hopefully heally will come through,the problem I foresee,dont healy and buckley play the same side?

Could healy be changed at this stage,to the other side?

Nope, Healy is a loosehead and Buckley a tighthead (which in part explains his poor scrummaging performances when he has replaced Horan). Healy is currently little more than Horan mk2 anyway, hopefully he improves his scrummaging (he's probably a good bit faster as well mind).

dc69

Podge_irl wrote: »

Nope, Healy is a loosehead and Buckley a tighthead (which in part explains his poor scrummaging performances when he has replaced Horan). Healy is currently little more than Horan mk2 anyway, hopefully he improves his scrummaging (he's probably a good bit faster as well mind).

What do you mean hes a horan mk2?can you explain.

If your refering to size,healy is the same height and 5-10kg's heavier and hasnt got an ounce of fat on him.when he is ready he will probably be 125 or so,he is currently 110kg.Horan is 105kg

If your refering to scrumaging,he is only 20 so I would say he will improve.well we better hope he will lol

marco_polo

dc69 wrote: »

What do you mean hes a horan mk2?can you explain.

If your refering to size,healy is the same height and 5-10kg's heavier and hasnt got an ounce of fat on him.when he is ready he will probably be 125 or so,he is currently 110kg.Horan is 105kg

If your refering to scrumaging,he is only 20 so I would say he will improve.well we better hope he will lol

I think just means that Healy is good around the park, but not a great scrummager as yet. As you said though he is still only 20 so there is plenty of time yet.

JohnoB

The simple fact of the matter is that the ball couldnt be released to the backs on Saturday quickly enough to make a difference. Reddan was positively lethargic with his release, it was appaling. Thankfully that has been rectified for the Australian game. Although the fact that the Munstermen looked amateurish in the breakdown against All-Blacks, who are in another league all together in terms of intensity, was also making quick release difficult.
A case in point is Wallace's try. Effectively, it was resultant of the the ball going to the backs before NZ could set their defence. Though he probably should have been stopped anyway if it were not for some nice feet.
However, on the other side of the coin the ground gained by the forwards in the last ten minutes was impressive. NZ had probably switched off somewhat at that point knowing they were two scores in from.
But yes, I do agree that Ireland have always been better playing a more expansive game. Our general difficulty in overcoming Scotland in the six nations over the last few years came from Eddie's insistence on playing a Munster style game against them. Against a team that cant defend and cant score tries this is absurd. Then playing an expansive running game against Wales, Italy and England (this year aside) we showed our strength lies in getting the ball to the backs off solid line-outs, devastating rucking and turnover ball. There is no question that Ireland playing well is an Ireland of fast, counter-attacking play. I just hope its not all in the past.

Sparky14

As well as missing Hickie, the rest of our backline is getting older and slower. O'Driscoll up to about 2 yrs ago was still frightening, unfortunately he seems to be slowing up a little each year. A pity Trimble hasn't fulfilled on his early promise, he would be close to being the fastest player Ireland have at the moment.

Podge_irl

dc69 wrote: »

If your refering to scrumaging,he is only 20 so I would say he will improve.well we better hope he will lol

I was indeed. He's been fairly minced in scrums at times, though obviously he should improve. I wasn't intending referring to him as Horan mk2 to be derogatory or anything - merely pointing out that he is exceptionally skilled for a prop, possibly more so than Horan in some respects, but has a long long way to go to be an effective scrummager. Its possible he may never be all that great a scrummaging prop, but he certainly seems strong enough and has the build for it. As you say he is already heavier then Horan and built like a bloody tank.