The x-factor vs. Isaac Boss

geoff29

As good as they are in their own right - I often wonder how some players (backs) make it into the setup. At the mo, people like Isaac Boss, Paddy Wallace, Gavin Duffy. Why are they there?

In pace, step or hands - There are some players who just have the x-factor or whatever, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Murphy (When he's on it), O'Gara too. And then there are the grafters like Shane Horgan - who make up for their short-comings with huge energy that can often go either way. Then there are the solid people like Girvan Dempsey... I look at Duffy here - and yet I think - is he shorter on pace?!

But where do Duffy and co. stand? I can't for the life of me figure out why they are there. I really, really can't. Surely of all the players in Ireland - we have more talent than putting these guys on the field? I see more exciting players in the AIB league every week. Why can't we have an entire backline with the x-factor?!

I would have included Tommy Bowe on this list since from day 1, I was wondering about his pace - but he's had quite the season and I put him in the Shane Horgan cat. He's a trier..

In the Ireland matches at least, I thought Luke Fitzgerald brought huge energy - suspect he has that x-factor!

I think I'm just annoyed that we are about to play the all-blacks and somehow paddy wallace has managed to sneak on. How?!

hardCopy

Process of elimination, as terrible as that sounds, but who else would you play at 12 that is available?

The only other option I can see is to move Horgan in and swap the back 3 around, personally I don't like that option and would rather see Paddy get his fair shot.

geoff29

yeh I agree about injuries etc. I suppose Im just annoyed at the lack of depth. i.e, now that we have injuries, why is it that we must rely on the likes of boss and co.

granted that the wc was so bad - im hoping for an almost france-like reinvention (to a degree i mean-im not saying clean sheet nor would i say that someone is past it because they are 29 etc.) - but i would like it so that when injuries come that we can rely on someone as good as those who are being replaced - or even better wanting competition etc. I just think that it should never have come down to duffy/wallace playing the all-blacks. sure they are good - and often play well in magners etc - but they arent that good.

Is Sexton out injured btw? Would love to have seen him play the games..

I know he has dodgy tackling skills - but I think i'd prefer have Murphy in somewhere. horgan was awful in the centre I agree that wallace is possibly all we have going otherwise..

hardCopy

Sexton will go to the Churchill cup and get some quality game time, but he shouldn't be kept in the A-Team indefinitely. He'll get his chance, hopefully well before the next world cup.

If Paddy can't handle Nonu in defence then we can always take him off and push Horgan in. I see it as taking a gamble that we can do better with a little creativity with Paddy than with big hits and crash balls from Shaggy.

On the development front, we're never going to have the opportunities to sweep the boards and bring in new squads like the big teams do, we only really have club sides to choose from so the chances of Ireland ever having more than 6 or 7 uncapped players ready to jump in are very slim.

I think we'll do well going forward with guys like Kearney, Luke, Healy, Buckley (not as young but still a new face), Sexton, Hurley.

They do need a shot sooner rather than later so at least we'll know what they're made of ahead of the next world cup. There's no reason to have to bring in someone like Reddan in the middle of the world cup when he could have had a chance to win his place beforehand in less important games.

Stev_o

You have to remember that we are desperately bad at bringing in young talent from the youth set up right up into the professional day. At the end of the day we only have 4 Professional provinces who cant make room for every youngster that comes through. So we see either people drop out,spend their life in the A squad or some move to Engerland.

The fashionable thing these days according to many people is to get these youngster into the Sevens circuit ala Wales and England. That actually is happening at the moment as we try qualify for the league.

We arent abundant in the amount of talent available in the country infact we are awful at letting it go. Ask any respected rugby player/coach/person in information and they ll tell you that

1.People who go through the school system mostly stop after they finished finished school. Thats a large % that doesnt go onto U20 and hopefully then AIL.

2.People who go club route will a % will stop at U18 to go play at university or not play at all.

Clubs are the best at sticking keeping their players in the form of either a J team or any of their teams trying to get AIL status. Players will find it hard though to get into the AIL as chances are many positions will be taken by the old guard or foreign players. But at least the distribution of players can be managed so the talented can get game time with a J team rather then picking splinters from their arse on the AIL team.

England was able to add alot of new players to their ranks by their "Go play rugby" campaign after their RWC 2003 win which was hugely successful (http://www.rfu.com/goplayrugby/)
The IRFU had a great chance to start a similar campaign when rugby was at a all time high last year but they didn't.

dc69

geoff29 wrote: »

I would have included Tommy Bowe on this list since from day 1, I was wondering about his pace - but he's had quite the season and I put him in the Shane Horgan cat. He's a trier..

How is shane horgan a trier?
He is the best wing we have had in the last few years with only hickie better then him.

He always plays well for Ireland and he will be electric against the all blacks,these are the games he loves i.e physicality.

To call him a trier is a joke,also I think tommy bowe has a huge future with Ireland and I regard him as a good winger.

X-Factor doesnt need you to have a step,if we had a player on the pitch that was running at the try line and there were 3 players in his way,then shane horgan would be my choice,out of any player.
You dont have to have a step to be a good player.

my 2cents.

As for,why are some players in the squad that arent good?
we are a small nation with not alot of strength in depth.

remus808

Have to agree with some of your points, there are too many journeymen in and around the fringes of the Ireland set-up. Would much rather to see younger, more promising players being developed. Although again I guess the real problem with our lack of depth is the club setup over here..

geoff29

dc69 wrote: »

How is shane horgan a trier?

I think tommy bowe has a huge future with Ireland and I regard him as a good winger.

X-Factor doesnt need you to have a step

Hi, just to clarify there - im a big shane horgan fan dont get me wrong. What I mean is that I don't think he has the same 'natural talent' as say D'Arcy/O'Driscoll - be it hands, acceleration or general coodination perhaps. Having said that he's taken some magnificent high-balls. But - I believe him to be highly effective - and totally agree that some of his tries could only have been scored by him as he steam-rolled those on front of him or stretched out to the line e.g v england.. In addition, right now I would say he is the quickest player on the Irish team - only Hickie I'd say was quicker in a straight line. I like Shanes abundance of energy, and like you said, his ability to step it up for the bigger games like in 06.

In addition - Shane's try count/match is fantastic. Far better than most.

I agree that to have the x-factor you dont need the step - I said pace, step *or* hands. Id bring reading the game into that too. Take trimble, if he could only read the game better and not get caught out of position in defence he would be great. Thats why I like Girv.

I like Kearney alright..

Again, thought Bowe has come on a huge amount alright - im only questioning his pace but he's a big guy he does well - will be interesting to see how he gets on at his new club/league.

zAbbo

Geoff, are you honestly saying that Horgan is the fastest player in the Irish squad?

Don't buy into the George Hookisms, Bowe/Kearney/BOD/Fitz are probably all faster than Shaggy.

Anthony Horgan was a trier! Bowe and Shaggy are waaay above that, saying otherwise is an insult.

This kind of thread seems a little bandwagonish, and I'm sure you know a little more about rugby to be one of them, Geoff.

You could argus Boss has done more to deserve a place than Stringer...

Have you seen the players you are lambasting play? live? and not on TV?

I saw Gavin Duffy play a few times and was impressed with his attacking display, he always looked to break the line and really stood out among the Conn backs

geoff29

haha.. yeh im not giving in - but i never ever thought bowe was fast. have seen him play for ulster a few times - he runs great lines i think..

imo, top speed o'driscoll isnt fast (relative to the speedsters)- absolutely not. acceleration/step/changing direction - there's no one quicker - but in a straight line no way. D'arcy is the same.

I havent seen Luke Fitz in real life so I dont know - but i agree he looks quick on tv!! kearney too - but back in the day - still think Hickey and his 10/11 second 100m time would have burned them!!

Shane is actually very fast!! Onces he's moving he like a train!!


But anyway, all of that is besides any point I was trying to make. What I just wanted to do was convey my annoyance that we dont have greater depth and given the teams performance and changes over the last year - I really wish that someone had thrown caution to the wind and sent a much younger team out and tried out some more of the relative newcomers. SA, France and England and even NZ regularly play guys under 21 - we don't seem to have that - but maybe like you've all said we dont have the foundations in place to make that possible.

Again, and I stress this, Boss et al aren't bad players - I'm def not saying that - I've played many a game and if I could get near that level I'd be jumping up and down. All I'm saying is that they aren't the *best* World Class players and that due to the injuries, I wish we were fielding some young lads rather than the tried/trusted/yet-def-not-1st-team players. At least the other way we might have walked away from the tests saying that x and y have huge potential! Even if Wallace and co. play well - we'll still say, yeh they were good but wait until D'arcy/trimble are back etc.

re duffy - yeh seen him and I agree that he stands out.. at connaught..! but he's hardly going provide the spark that ignites an international win is he??

i would put stringer ahead of boss...

Abercrombie Dud

sorry now but saying Gavin Duffy is not a good player is ridiculous.he certainly doesnt have an x-factor about him and is too rightly 3rd choice FB,but he is a good player. and since when do the whole team have an x factor, last time i checked we were 8th in the world!

first of all he was thrown into centre in place of BOD at the last minute of the ba-ba's game.

second of all he hadnt played center all year for connacht and his last appearance there was against scotland before the WC which he only played for 10 mins.

and he is very reliant under the high ball, plus if you had to work with the joke that is the connacht backline you wouldnt be much of an attacking threat!

dc69

I agree,some would even argue that duffy deserves to play 12 ahead of wallace.

geoff29 wrote: »

# I wish we were fielding some young lads rather than the tried/trusted/yet-def-not-1st-team players. At least the other way we might have walked away from the tests saying that x and y have huge potential!

The youngsters that were proposed for this game (kearney,Fitzgerald,Bowe?) are at just about the right playing time/age/mental/ability to play the AB's,the only other youngsters we have are hurley and dowling.Hurley is inferior to kearney and dowling isnt as good as bowe imo and is older,so will probably never see much time in an Ireand shirt.

The only other youngsters I can think of are O'Leary,Earls and Cian Healy.

Healy isnt anywhere near ready
Earls hasnt played enough at the top level,next year will be a big year for him imo.

You could argue about O'leary,but maybe they went with experience.

We arent like france are England,where we will get 10 new players every 2 years that could potentially make it.

The nature of our small playing population means we will always have old and young players on the team,and wont be putting out a backline of players all under 26 anytime in the future.

What other youngsters,do you think should have gone on tour and started against the AB's.

dc69

Double Post

Amazotheamazing

Interestingly, two of the guys you mentioned we among the best school-age talents Ireland ever had. Duffy was on the schools team for 3 years (think he's one of only very few to do so) and Paddy Wallace was considered something of a prodigy.

It went badly wrong for both of them at the start of their careers, Duffy was in a poor Connacht team when he could have learned a lot more at one of the bigger provinces. Wallace was unlucky with injuries and shunted to fullback as Humphreys was still outhalf at Ulster. Personally, always thought he was more of a 12, and with Iain Humphreys and O'Connor at Ulster next year, I expect he'll stay at 12.

Pity how it went for them, but in terms of sheer talent, both a very talented guys, just it was never fully developed.

anonymous_joe

People forget just how good players like that are or in these cases were.

One of the problems for Ireland is that I don't think the 4 provinces system is as good for youth development as a club system. Obviously the system used is better for rugby overall, but there are some weaknesses. This is one of them.

Compare to England, where youngsters can go to weaker clubs etc and learn, and can be given more game time in a first team, it's easier to bring them up.

Stev_o

anonymous_joe wrote: »

People forget just how good players like that are or in these cases were.

One of the problems for Ireland is that I don't think the 4 provinces system is as good for youth development as a club system. Obviously the system used is better for rugby overall, but there are some weaknesses. This is one of them.

Compare to England, where youngsters can go to weaker clubs etc and learn, and can be given more game time in a first team, it's easier to bring them up.

But not even that English teams will give a player a crack at the whip anyway regardless of age. But you are right guys like Miles Benjiman (19) {Scored 9 tries in 15 appearances} Noah Cato and Calum Clark (18) {Youngest forward to ever play in the GP} these guys are getting invaluable experience at top level and they will be playing in the U21 World Cup.

Compare that to the Irish side and i think only one or two have actually played in the ML this season.