Competition Help.

dos29

Thinkin of entering a long range comp soon, its somethin i'd be interested in getting involved in. My only experience of competition shooting to now is military so i'm hoping to get a few pointers on what i'm sure is a more accurate dicipline. im not a bad shot, i can get about 1.5" group at 100yds with the steyr at work, and for anyone thats not familiar, the sights are X1.5 with an open reticle circle(as opposed to crosshairs), with just a closed hand to support the front, under the barrel grip.
Our method of learning marksmanship is position and hold, natural alignment, aim, and shot release and follow through. Along with correct breathing.
At the moment, my civie rifle is a Rem 700 vlss in .223, on a 9-13 bipod with a 4.5-14 scope. I know its not an ideal set up for long range but the comp im talkin about is 300yds so I thought it should be fairly accurate at that range.
The thing is, i can barely get a group under 2" if im lucky at 100yds at the moment. I thought this set up would be much more capable than what i spoke of at the start of this post. Im even using a rear rest bag! What scares me is grouping better with the steyr even though its hand supported at the front and has assentially open sights, versus bipod rest and X14 sight!
(Long post i know, but please bear with me!:o)
What id love is peoples views on some of the following,
1. Am i using correct grain bullets? (55gn fmj, boat tail federal, barrel is 1 in 12)
2. Hollow point or fmj? ive heard hollow point might be more accurate, how? from my basic level, lookin at the 2, i think the fmj should be more aerodynamic.
3. How much do average winds affect at 100,200,300yds? is the only way to learn through practise, trial and error, investing in 1 of those wind measureing yolks?
4. PROBABLY MOST IMPORTANT, what marksmanship principles are used by others? is there more in depth than what ive been using?
5. I know a fair judge of shooting is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200yds and so on, but could someone tell me what size targets are used for long range at 300? the comp im talkin about is with LLRAI in 2 weeks.
Im well aware i wont be taking home gold, but id like to get my feet wet anyway, so to speak.
For anyone that posts a reply, thanks in advance, its a big one to read through, so thanks for taking the time.

foxshooter243

dos29 wrote: »

Thinkin of entering a long range comp soon, its somethin i'd be interested in getting involved in. My only experience of competition shooting to now is military so i'm hoping to get a few pointers on what i'm sure is a more accurate dicipline. im not a bad shot, i can get about 1.5" group at 100yds with the steyr at work, and for anyone thats not familiar, the sights are X1.5 with an open reticle circle(as opposed to crosshairs), with just a closed hand to support the front, under the barrel grip.
Our method of learning marksmanship is position and hold, natural alignment, aim, and shot release and follow through. Along with correct breathing.
At the moment, my civie rifle is a Rem 700 vlss in .223, on a 9-13 bipod with a 4.5-14 scope. I know its not an ideal set up for long range but the comp im talkin about is 300yds so I thought it should be fairly accurate at that range.
The thing is, i can barely get a group under 2" if im lucky at 100yds at the moment. I thought this set up would be much more capable than what i spoke of at the start of this post. Im even using a rear rest bag! What scares me is grouping better with the steyr even though its hand supported at the front and has assentially open sights, versus bipod rest and X14 sight!
(Long post i know, but please bear with me!:o)
What id love is peoples views on some of the following,
1. Am i using correct grain bullets? (55gn fmj, boat tail federal, barrel is 1 in 12)
2. Hollow point or fmj? ive heard hollow point might be more accurate, how? from my basic level, lookin at the 2, i think the fmj should be more aerodynamic.
3. How much do average winds affect at 100,200,300yds? is the only way to learn through practise, trial and error, investing in 1 of those wind measureing yolks?
4. PROBABLY MOST IMPORTANT, what marksmanship principles are used by others? is there more in depth than what ive been using?
5. I know a fair judge of shooting is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200yds and so on, but could someone tell me what size targets are used for long range at 300? the comp im talkin about is with LLRAI in 2 weeks.
Im well aware i wont be taking home gold, but id like to get my feet wet anyway, so to speak.
For anyone that posts a reply, thanks in advance, its a big one to read through, so thanks for taking the time.

firstly , get rid of those bullets and buy some 55 grain v max or other good quality ammo-and try again-youll find those bullets may be causing your problem-when you find ammo that works ,post it on this thread and ill give you the wind dope if you wish, a windmeter will be handy so as to help you learn to appreciate the wind speed.;)

rrpc

Just a quick question: Have you ever tried your .223 without the bipod? Sometimes you can get a fair degree of jump from a bipod, whereas if you're holding the fore-end you could reduce this a little.

You're right by the way, hollow point would not be as accurate.

freddieot

Souns like you already know how to shoot a rifle fairly well.

My own view is that hollow point is more accurate than FMJ but that aside unless you are well used to using a bolt action rifle like the 700, you may be moving your position slightly between shots when you reload. The bipod can also 'lean' a bit after a shot so watch for that as well. This does not happen as much with a semi - just a thought !

dos29

Thanks guys, so straight off i have a few things to try out. maybe the bipod could sit out a few rounds, i'll try a sand bag or maybe my rest bag under the fore end so. As for the bullets, I know ya get what ya pay for, and i'll try some v-max( i think they're harnady, right?), or maybe some accutips an see if i improve much.
BUT.... I thought the differance between those and what i was using would be negligable and only for serious shooters, seeing as the bullets are the same weight, and i presumed very close dimensions. hope im proven wrong and i shoot a lot better, but i'd appreciate some education on how different the bullets actually are. also, i thought the better rounds main plus was a flatter trajectory, but if your zeroed for what your using, where does that make the difference? thanks for the tips so far guys.

foxshooter243

dos29 wrote: »

Thanks guys, so straight off i have a few things to try out. maybe the bipod could sit out a few rounds, i'll try a sand bag or maybe my rest bag under the fore end so. As for the bullets, I know ya get what ya pay for, and i'll try some v-max( i think they're harnady, right?), or maybe some accutips an see if i improve much.
BUT.... I thought the differance between those and what i was using would be negligable and only for serious shooters, seeing as the bullets are the same weight, and i presumed very close dimensions. hope im proven wrong and i shoot a lot better, but i'd appreciate some education on how different the bullets actually are. also, i thought the better rounds main plus was a flatter trajectory, but if your zeroed for what your using, where does that make the difference? thanks for the tips so far guys.

i bought some of those 55 grain fmj bullets to try one time- i could have sent them downrange better with a slingshot- no joke, i was getting groups so bad you wouldnt believe- reached for my tried and tested loads
and accuracy and sanity was restored. just buy one box of the good stuff
and sit down with your rifle properly rested as rrpc says without the bipod and check for improvement- i take it that your rifle is copper free and all that?

It wasn't me!

from another forum people recommended testing ammo with no bench or bipod, but with your front wrist rested on sandbags for stability. It's more natural, so barrel reaction on firing is better, and you get a more accurate representation of your rifle's like or dislike of various ammo's.

dos29

Looks like im definately off to the aul shops so. Really hope it makes that much of a differance!
On the copper front, tried to break in the rifle as best I could, fire 1, bore snake for 10, fire 2, bore snake for 10, fire 5, boresnake for 20, and for usual cleanin i soak with brunox for half an hour, then use a wire brush a couple of times, then boresnake a couple times before using patches til they're clean.
So i RECKON its clean, but i heard of lapping the barrel to fine tune it so if i could find this stuff to do that( David Tubb's Final Finish System!), id like to give it a go. found that on this link from IWM on another thread, http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm .
I'll buy a few box's of the better brands so an find out what suits, and makin sure i use no bipod, but a sandbag and the lamh chle to stabilise!
Thanks again folks, .

It wasn't me!

Best of luck. Let us know what results you come up with.

dos29

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Best of luck. Let us know what results you come up with.

will do, lookin forward to .223" groups now!:D:D

It wasn't me!

Get it very right and the margin won't be much more than double that, more than likely.

Sandy22

dos29 wrote: »

..........BUT.... I thought the differance between those and what i was using would be negligable and only for serious shooters, seeing as the bullets are the same weight, and i presumed very close dimensions. hope im proven wrong and i shoot a lot better, but i'd appreciate some education on how different the bullets actually are. also, i thought the better rounds main plus was a flatter trajectory, ..........

In target shooting the key difference is in the quality of the bullet, i.e. uniformity of dimensions and density from one bullet to the next. Poorer quality bullets will not necessarily all be exactly the same weight and size, and may have inconsistencies you won't even see, like bases off square, jackets not the same thickness all round or air bubbles in the core.

In shooting at known distances, a flatter trajectory isn't that big a deal per se.

If hollow points are more accurate, I don't believe it's due to the point, but the fact that they virtually all have solid bases. A match HP only has a hole at the tip as a consequence of the jacket being drawn from the base. "F"MJ's are drawn the other way specifically to give a solid point, and therefore have a "hole" at the base - in most cases substantially exposing the core - IMHO not optimal for accuracy. In that regard it may also be worth mentioning that I believe conventional wisdom has it that a flat based bullet is better for pure accuracy than a boat-tail.

Rovi

Many top quality target bullets are technically 'hollow point' (Lapua Scenar, Sierra MatchKing, etc), but that's a consequence of the manufacturing process as Sandy says above; they're not designed for controlled and reliable expansion on impact like hunting bullets.
This construction method also results in the centre of gravity of the bullet being closer to the rear, making them more stable in flight.

Hornady do an excellent 75gr BTHP (Boat Tail Hollow Point) Match round in .223; it's probably a bit on the heavy end for a 1:12 twist barrel, but it has to be worth trying a box of 20.
Federal do two target loads (in their Premium Gold Medal line) with Sierra's MatchKing bullets (69gr and 77gr), but I've never seen them for sale here.

dos29

To be honest, I was of the opinion that 55grain was as heavy as a 1 in 12 should shoot. Am I right in this? Also, if I shoot bullets too heavy for my barrel, is it just a risk on accuracy, or are there possible damaging effects? (I know about the yaw effect, but i've no mod on it.)

rrpc

Your best bet is to try a range of different ammos on a windless day benchrested. It's very hard to know by deductive reasoning as to what would suit your rifle best, even different rifles of the exact same manufacture can vary in what they like.

You need a minimum of five shot groups and optimally 7 to 10 to be able to form any sort of judgment.

foxshooter243

dos29 wrote: »

To be honest, I was of the opinion that 55grain was as heavy as a 1 in 12 should shoot. Am I right in this? Also, if I shoot bullets too heavy for my barrel, is it just a risk on accuracy, or are there possible damaging effects? (I know about the yaw effect, but i've no mod on it.)

im afraid 55 grain is as heavy as you can go without reloading, if you were able to reload you could have used 60 grain bullets with the 12 twist,the 12 twist is suitable for bullets in the 40-60 grain range.
with the possibility of reloading sometime in the next millenium:D, guys buying 223 rifles should consider buying one with a fast twist, say an 8 twist because if reloading were properly introduced then they would have a rifle capable of using heavier bullets , with the 8 twist they could use 80 grain ammo or any of the VLD bullets that are available for 223.
and on your last point using too heavy a bullet with the wrong twist does no harm as long as you dont have a mod on the end, all youll do is keyhole on target.

freddieot

The Hornady 75g BTHP is good. Also try their 53 grain BTHP. I find it groups far better at 100\200 than the usual 55g FMJs.

Vegeta

Where are people getting the 75 grain BTHP rounds.

bunny shooter

foxshooter243 wrote: »

.................all Youll Do Is Keyhole On Target.

+1

dos29

for anyone that might be interested, here are the results of the last week!
firstly, got on to duffy's in galway about different ammo, and brian told me he'd take me out an batch test a few different types. I have to say, from all my dealings with him, he's been an absolutely top fella.
So heres the list of what we tried that day:-
62gr remington premier match (€32 a box)
55gr remington accutips (€32 a box)
50gr american eagle flat base (€14? i think!)
45gr hp remington umc (€12 a box)
all fired from 100yds off the hand resting on a bag.
findings were accutips came out on top, followed surprisingly by hp umc, then american eagle flat bases, then by premier match (we decided the 62gr was slightly too much for the twist)
moved to 300yds, couldnt hit the shoot'n'see target! small fresh breeze from left to right, so aimed off slightly left, found 2 shots on the right hand edge! aimed off to the left hand edge for 5 shots, and found them in nearly a straight line of a 5" group , mpi was 10" right of poa! lesson learned:- wind kicks a 223's ass!:D i was told it was less than 10mph wind, and it was what i'd call a light wind. 10" didnt have me too pleased.
Took accutips to the comp with me saturday, fired on the 1st detail, luckily the wind was down. scored 85 out of 100 in that 1. pleased enough for my 1st 300yrd competition shoot with the remmy. wind picked up for my second round, scored 75.:mad: its a fairly open range with a swirling wind effect, so very hard to counter the effects. but i THINK i still managed to come somewhere in the middle, ish! so not the end of the world.
What I've taken from this is quite simple.....
I WANT A 308!:D so watch this space, it might take a while, but i'll have one in the end!
Just to say thanks again to all who took the trouble to reply and help out.

rrpc

A small fast bullet will always be worse affected by the wind than a heavier one.

You need to use the windage adjustment on your scope and learn how many clicks to the inch it needs at different distances. You'll need to learn your target as well, so that if you're say in the eight ring, how far it is to the 10 and then convert that to clicks.

It's easier than aiming off, because you'll have something to aim at.

For the moment until you get the 308, use the 223 to learn the wind and beat it. Nothing you learn now will be lost when you move up.

Good result though, and wasn't it well worth the effort in getting to know the ammo?