Overseas voting

a_l_a_n

Whaat de f**k!?

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on the Register of electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election or referendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irish officials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postal voters list).

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/elections-and-referenda/voting/registering-to-vote

So which department should I send my flight receipts to?

Hotblack Desiato

If you're not living here, why should you be entitled to a vote here anyway? The consequences of that vote won't affect you.

We'd probably be ruled by SF if we gave all the plastic paddies in the States the vote... :eek:

a_l_a_n

ninja900 wrote: »

If you're not living here, why should you be entitled to a vote here anyway? The consequences of that vote won't affect you.

We'd probably be ruled by SF if we gave all the plastic paddies in the States the vote... :eek:

Don't think I should be entitled, nor would I, vote in local/general elections, but on referenda is seems quite clear to me that all Irish citizens should be entitled to vote ...

I understand the concerns about "irish" America and others, but I'm sure the vast majority of these who consider themselves Irish actually have no passport.

I on the other hand have been living in the far flung depths of London for but a few months, and am still on the register back home. I can vote, I just have to spend £100 on flights home and back for the privilege (as opposed to dropping into the embassy which I just assumed would be possible).

Thirdfox

Yes, I had considered taking a constitutional challenge to this - in many other countries overseas votes are allowed (US, Sweden, not sure about UK). And ironically a British citizen is allowed to vote in the Irish general election (if s/he is residing here in Ireland).

I had been away for the general election and wanted to vote but was told by the embassy that it's impossible.

My local TD didn't answer my queries regarding this matter at all (and I simply don't have the time to mount a legal challenge but I can foresee this case winning in the supreme court).

sink

I would suggest that the European Court of Human Rights would be the place to take your case. Afaik your case has no basis in Irish law but it might break some human rights laws in regards to rights of representation. I'm no lawyer, so i'm just purely speculating.

Thirdfox

I believe the legal clause is that you have to take the case in Ireland before transferring it to Europe.

Like I said - too much hassle for something that I don't feel strongly enough about. I'm sure there's something in the constitution regards "every citizen shall be entitled to vote" etc.

a_l_a_n

Thirdfox wrote: »

I'm sure there's something in the constitution regards "every citizen shall be entitled to vote" etc.

Indeed there is, but (without so much as ever having set foot in a court) I would imagine that the successful Government line would be that the issue is not over entitlement, but entitlement to cast your vote abroad, about which the constitution says nothing.

Hotblack Desiato

Thirdfox wrote: »

I'm sure there's something in the constitution regards "every citizen shall be entitled to vote" etc.

But every citizen is entitled to a vote. There is nothing stopping any non-resident using an address here to get onto the register. They just have to get to the polling booth on the day, but that's true whether they live a mile away or 1000 miles away. The government is under no obligation to wipe the ar*es and blow the noses of all citizens. If they have a right but cannot exercise it without some difficulty, due to their choice to live far away, that's up to them.

I couldn't see this getting anywhere in a court here or in Europe tbh, but IANAL.

a_l_a_n

ninja900 wrote: »

But every citizen is entitled to a vote. There is nothing stopping any non-resident using an address here to get onto the register. They just have to get to the polling booth on the day, but that's true whether they live a mile away or 1000 miles away. The government is under no obligation to wipe the ar*es and blow the noses of all citizens. If they have a right but cannot exercise it without some difficulty, due to their choice to live far away, that's up to them.

I couldn't see this getting anywhere in a court here or in Europe tbh, but IANAL.

I understand your point, and I'm not suggesting they open polling booths around the world, but to facilitate voting in embassies or via post is not too much to ask.

Would it be an inconvenience to the civil service? Yes, but it's far more of an inconvenience to allow people living on those god forsaken islands off the Atlantic coast to vote than it is to allow me to hand my vote to the Royal Mail. But nobody would suggest that the islanders should be deprived of their vote because of their choice to live out there.

It would facilitate thousands of Irish citizens around the world in exercising their right. I have no doubt that if polling were permitted in the embassy here in London it would see numbers far in excess of those seen by hundreds of rural stations back home. If you're happy to expect us to travel all the way home to vote, then I presume you'd be happy to expect those in rural areas to travel 20 miles to the next urban centre to cast their ballot?

And on the issue of it being our choice to be abroad, I think it's a pretty vague difference between me being abroad because I choose to take a job with the foreign service, and me being abroad because I choose to take a job in the private sector, yet in the former case they would allow me to post my vote home. I just can't see any logic/pattern in it.

All in all I think it comes across as a pretty amateur approach to democracy.

A Dub in Glasgo

ninja900 wrote: »

No representation without taxation!

What do you propose to do with the folk not working and the folk who are working yet do not get the vote?

But every citizen is entitled to a vote. There is nothing stopping any non-resident using an address here to get onto the register. They just have to get to the polling booth on the day, but that's true whether they live a mile away or 1000 miles away. The government is under no obligation to wipe the ar*es and blow the noses of all citizens. If they have a right but cannot exercise it without some difficulty, due to their choice to live far away, that's up to them.

You would be committing electoral fraud if you falsely claimed to be a resident to stay on the voting register. Irish citizens are not entitled to vote if they do not reside in the state.

Hotblack Desiato

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

What do you propose to do with the folk not working and the folk who are working yet do not get the vote?

:rolleyes: you might have heard of the Boston Tea Party and 'no taxation without representation'. The corollary of that is, if you choose to live elsewhere and pay your taxes to another state, what stake do you have in our country's future? You could vote to raise income taxes to 99% without paying a cent yourself.

Anyone living in the state pays taxes, it's impossible to live without paying VAT etc.

Citizens of other EU states should have the vote here on the same basis as British citizens (i.e. not referenda or Presidential) but that's another story.

You would be committing electoral fraud if you falsely claimed to be a resident to stay on the voting register. Irish citizens are not entitled to vote if they do not reside in the state.

If there is a specific law stating that, then maybe that could be challenged. In practice, lots of people living here are registered in two places, sometimes legally but by no means always. The register is a mess so an ex-pat who pops home to vote is hardly going to be noticed. At the moment the government has not chosen to go out of its way to facilitate non-residents to vote, and the people (at least, the ones resident here:) ) have not made an issue of it.

In general/EP elections there'd be the issue of what constituency they'd be registered in. It could be done but there is no appetite to do so. It would make it far too hard for the TDs to go to all funerals and get the potholes outside their door fixed

oscarBravo

ninja900 wrote: »

In practice, lots of people living here are registered in two places, sometimes legally...

Got an example of this? I didn't think that was legal.

a_l_a_n

ninja900 wrote: »

In general/EP elections there'd be the issue of what constituency they'd be registered in.

I think it quite unreasonable for someone living abroad to expect to have a say in local, general, or European elections. On the other hand I think it equally unreasonable (and increasingly I'm thinking unconstitutional) to deny those people their right to vote in referenda and presidential elections.

Hotblack Desiato

oscarBravo wrote: »

Got an example of this? I didn't think that was legal.

Students, as far as I know. Been a long time since I was one, there was a legal challenge since then, and I lived at home in college anyway

A Dub in Glasgo

ninja900 wrote: »

:rolleyes: you might have heard of the Boston Tea Party and 'no taxation without representation'. The corollary of that is, if you choose to live elsewhere and pay your taxes to another state, what stake do you have in our country's future? You could vote to raise income taxes to 99% without paying a cent yourself.

Anyone living in the state pays taxes, it's impossible to live without paying VAT etc.

:rolleyes:??

How do you gauge how much VAT a person should pay before we let them vote in this 'No representation without taxation!' world

Citizens of other EU states should have the vote here on the same basis as British citizens (i.e. not referenda or Presidential) but that's another story.

But they are not allowed therefore this 'No representation without taxation!' world is a nonsense. Many of those EU citizens can vote in their own country through their embassy though.

If there is a specific law stating that, then maybe that could be challenged. In practice, lots of people living here are registered in two places, sometimes legally but by no means always. The register is a mess so an ex-pat who pops home to vote is hardly going to be noticed. At the moment the government has not chosen to go out of its way to facilitate non-residents to vote, and the people (at least, the ones resident here:) ) have not made an issue of it.

In general/EP elections there'd be the issue of what constituency they'd be registered in. It could be done but there is no appetite to do so. It would make it far too hard for the TDs to go to all funerals and get the potholes outside their door fixed

The rules are clear, you need to be a resident of the RoI to have a chance of getting yourself onto the register and stay on the register.

Students are allowed to register at their 'home' address or their 'student' address but not both!

a_l_a_n

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The rules are clear, you need to be a resident of the RoI to have a chance of getting yourself onto the register and stay on the register.

FWIW, the aforementioned rules may be found in the Electoral Act 1992, 7.1, 8.1, and 10. The fundamental law that these rules violate can be found in Bunreacht na hEireann 16.1.2 and dependent paragraphs ...

Hotblack Desiato

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

How do you gauge how much VAT a person should pay before we let them vote in this 'No representation without taxation!' world

I won't even respond to that straw man

As you seem to have totally missed the point, let me turn it around the other way - why should we give non-resident citizens paying no tax here and therefore with no financial interest in the outcome of the poll a vote? What's in it for us residents who do live here and pay tax here and will be affected by the outcome? Why should we let non-residents dilute our votes?
What other countries do is not relevant - more fool them, I say

Students are allowed to register at their 'home' address or their 'student' address but not both!

Thanks for the clarification.

a_l_a_n

ninja900 wrote: »

I won't even respond to that straw man

As you seem to have totally missed the point, let me turn it around the other way - why should we give non-resident citizens paying no tax here and therefore with no financial interest in the outcome of the poll a vote? What's in it for us residents who do live here and pay tax here and will be affected by the outcome? Why should we let non-residents dilute our votes?
What other countries do is not relevant - more fool them, I say



Thanks for the clarification.

ninja900 you're talking about something much more significant that you realise I think. Tell me this, how would citizenship be defined in your world? It sounds very much like you would see it as a synonym for residence.

Hotblack Desiato

Not at all, I can be a citizen of Ireland without being a resident, I can travel on an Irish passport and seek Irish/EU consular assistance etc. while abroad. That doesn't imply the government should go out of their way to provide me with a convenient means to vote in an election held in a country I no longer live in and the outcome of which has no real effect on me.