Family member involved in Catholic Sect: Need advise

Inafix

Folks I need some advise and am hoping somebody may be able to point me in the right direction or give some guidance! I don't even know if this is the correct forum to post it in.
My mother has always been a religious woman but about 6 /7 years ago I noticed that she was starting to become over involved in religious goings on, going to mass 3/4 times a day, spending up to 3/4 hours in the church, visiting Achill and Knock at least once a month! It is at least a 4 hour drive from where she lives. To be honest this didn't bother me as this would prob fit the profile of many Irish women of similar age however I live away from home and on visits home I started to notice a change in her behaviour, very hostile, angry and "preparing for the end times". I got a chance to root out some of her leaflets and religious books and found some stuff on "the little pebble" (Order of St Charbel)

http://www.shoal.net.au/~mwoa/

which after a quick google I discovered was a Catholic sect in Australia. We discussed it and i showed her documents but she refused to believe that it was wrong and just clammed up and refuses to speak about it.
On recent trips home I have noticed that food is being stored in the attic and garage and religious paraphernalia is springing up everywhere. I cannot have an ordinary conversation with her on the phone as everything, (including the weather) I mention, results in her saying the end of the world is nigh and been very dogmatic in her conversations! I literally cannot have an ordinary down to earth conversation with her anymore. As I am not at home I cannot keep tabs on her behaviour however I have been told by another family member that she rises at 5.30 and "prays" until 9 then gets some sleep before heading out to the church. Another lady who I believe is involved in the same thing also visits to "pray".
I contacted Mike Garde of Dialogue.Ireland a few years back for some advise. I was given a priests number to contact who just advised that I contact my P.P. I really don't want to do this but from what I can ascertain from other family members and my own gut feelings , it is at crisis point where people lives are being made hell and seems to be getting worse. She is involved also with Achill and I know this has been brought to media attention of late.
This would probably be funny if it wasn't so serious
Any constructive advise would be appreciated!

DarkJager

Is your mother depressed by any chance?? It appears she may attracted to the pessimistic nature of this sect if thats the case... I'm not sure what you can do besides sitting her down and having a serious long chat about it. Tell her to leave all this sect business to one side, even for a few minutes and just talk about it.

Slow Motion

Inafix wrote: »

This would probably be funny if it wasn't so serious
Any constructive advise would be appreciated!

Not funny at all! I think the advice about talking to your P.P. is a good first step, if he is a reasonable individual he will agree with you and talk to your mother and get her to take a step back. You also have to ask yourself what in her life may have happened (if anything) to cause this behaviour, maybe it's only a symptom of something else that needs to be dealt with!

mikemac

I’m glad you mentioned it was a Catholic sect.
Whatever you think about the church, it’s far less worrying than other obscure sects. I think you are overreacting

I’m sure there is information out there.
Ask the PP and sure if he doesn’t know he’ll ask the diocese office.
Off hand, I don’t know where you go for info but it's out there

Does she live alone? Maybe she is just trying to fill her time with something worthwhile. It could just as easily have been a charity or some social club.

Edit: I missed the part about “end of the world”. So it’s more serious then my post showed

cowzerp

im not the church type but why dont you explain this to the local parish priest and ask him to have a chat with her? she might listen to him and still gets to keep her faith!

Inafix

Thanks guys for the replies so far. Yes I reckon she has been depressed since me moving away and making life for myself. This is really because she has dropped most of her hobbies like gardening and I reckon would like me to move home. I'm afraid that won't be happening and certainly not under the present circumstances.
She lives with my dad but i had a chance to discuss what is going on over the weekend as he was visiting me on his own. She really is making life very difficult for him too. there are other things she is doing that point to her being brainwashed ,which I don't really want to go into here.
It is a rural area where she lives so it is difficult to source help unlike in the city. I really don't want to approach the p.P yet if there was anothe avenue I could go down. She would be very hostile about that. I have also considered talking to her GP.

RedXIV

I realise your reluctance but i reckon the Parish Priest might be the best option, especially considering the background of this sect. He may be able to bring her round to realising the extremist attitude she's developed.

I wish i had better advice but i've no experience with anything like this

DarkJager

If she is depressed OP, then allowing her to continue listening to the ramblings of this sect may be the worst thing possible. Somebody needs to sit down and straight talk to her, even it is a GP. Depression can be treated and most sufferers will make a full recovery with the right help. If it was my mother, I wouldn't let this go on a second longer. You may be the only one who can help her and you've got to make a start whatever that may be.

Inafix

Tanks Red: Yeah I will probably have to make an appointment to see him when I'm home again. There seems to be very little advise available in Ireland and I think people think you have to be involved in something crazy like Scientology to be taken serious:(
My husband agrees with me that there is a prob but says there is nothing we can do about it!!

Thumpette

Tough situation OP. I would just like to say to treat this very seriously. A family member of mine had exactly the same symptoms since the death of her father around 8 years ago. It gradually got worse and worse and she is now suffering from quite severe depression and has made a number of attempts at ther life.

I am not trying to scare anyone here, but when people reach out for something like this I think a lot of the times it is a sympom of mental illness. I would strongly consider getting her to go to a doctor as soon as possible. Maybe get her to go on the pretence of something physical being wrong., or even a check up and pre warn the doctor to engage her in a conversation about religion to get another opinion.

good luck with this, I'm sure with the support of her family as she seems to have she will get through this.

RedXIV

Inafix wrote: »

Tanks Red: Yeah I will probably have to make an appointment to see him when I'm home again. There seems to be very little advise available in Ireland and I think people think you have to be involved in something crazy like Scientology to be taken serious:(
My husband agrees with me that there is a prob but says there is nothing we can do about it!!

Not 100% true, while i had no experience personally with this sort of thing, my dad did step in to a cousin's situation where scientology appeared to practically abduct him. Now my dad's a big man, and scary as they come when he needs to be and because he's a garda, told the guys in charge that any attempts to contact my cousin would result in immediate arrests for "attempts to breach the peace "

which probably translated as provoking my dad.

I don't advocate violence but my dad did scare a cult away from my cousin. i'm proud and awed at the fact. But if he hadn't been a cop, probably wouldn't have worked

Inafix

I really appreciate the replies. Don't forget I have put off doing anything about this for quite a few years and my mothers attitude has really got worse.
Will the GP take my concerns on board d'ya reckon?

RedXIV

If he's a real GP, he will. Even if he can't do anything himself, He should be able to recommend someone that can help

Inafix

I guess my main concern is that our relationship doesn't get any worse due to "my meddling" in her affairs but she really is making life very difficult for my Dad and when my husband and I visit....as well as all the crap that comes out of mouth now. All the canned food she is collecting is now nearly out of date and is only fit for the dump and I will have to clear it all out when she is not looking of course:mad:

I'm at my wits end with her.

Slow Motion

Inafix wrote: »

I guess my main concern is that our relationship doesn't get any worse due to "my meddling" in her affairs but she really is making life very difficult for my Dad and when my husband and I visit....as well as all the crap that comes out of mouth now. All the canned food she is collecting is now nearly out of date and is only fit for the dump and I will have to clear it all out when she is not looking of course:mad:

I'm at my wits end with her.

Sounds like your relationship couldn't get much worse. Talk to the GP & P.P. if nothing else at least you will know you are doing what you can!

edanto

Can you explain why you think your Mum would be hostile to chatting about the new church group with the PP?

A distant family member of ours is involved in a quasi Christian cult in the states and boy are they weird. I remember years ago trying to have a chat with her about religion and any time we stepped off the safe path of her beliefs and started to question them her defences were straight up.

Her brainwashers had prepared her for any attack on her beliefs by giving her stock answers to the most common ones and then catch-all "work of the devil" phrases to bat away any other criticisms of her new beliefs.

So, maybe your Mum has been subjected to the same kind of brainwashing - she might believe that the mainstream Catholic church has been overrun with Armageddon-deniers or other agents of the devil and is probably immune to anything that the priest could say to her, unless he's particularly skilled at counselling. It could be a bad first move; if your instinct is that she would react badly, then trust it.

I don't know if there's a cure for religion, particularly this acute version.

The next paragraph is written in a flippant way - please don't think I'm joking about how serious this is.

You could use the methodology of the sects against itself - remove her from her environment (invite her to come stay for a week or two with you), love-bomb her (be repetitive and clear about your unconditional love), try and fill her days with activities (you may need some help in the garden) - leading up towards some kind of action that you want her to take - i.e. go to a counsellor with you or at least take on board your serious concerns about her lifestyle choice. If you have success with these approaches, it is likely to be stop-start as the cult vies for her attentions, but persevere. Blood is thicker than even holy water.

I'm sure you've already found that logic (e.g. what are you doing with your life and why?) won't penetrate her beliefs, that's probably really frustrating. Try and argue as little as possible with her, don't take the bait. Presumably she feels that the Lord God has made some demands of her in terms of number of hours spent praying per day - all you're trying to show her is that her family have some similar demands.

She might listen to: "If Armageddon really is coming, maybe it's best to pray/eat/spend time with family and friends."

LegacyUser

Hi OP,

I've come across something similar myself with my own mum. She isn't involved with a religious sect but does have extreme religious views, including 'hearing voices'. Obviously, this is a mental problem but she really believes they are speaking to her.

Our PP, GP and a psychiatrist have spoken to her and much to my disgust, none of them have tried to persuade her that she is wrong. The doctors have asked 'and do you know these are not real' to which she has said no, they are real etc, and they have put her on medication and anti-depressants. She still holds extreme views but is less depressed and has more time for her family than she used to. Our PP may have helped to put her mind at rest by listening but that's all he did. You could try your PP but he might not like trying to change someone's mind about something, not being flippant but it isnt really his job - its a bit like trying to convert a Protestant to Catholicism I think.

Maybe, if you get to spend some time with her by yourself and her mind is clear, you could explain that she needs to give more time and attention to her family, especially her husband, even if she wont give up the extreme beliefs. Like edanto said, there mightn't be a cure for religion as such, but maybe your GP can make a house call to see if there is a mental reason behind all this. Good luck.

Semele

I think that the priest would be a good place to start. I come from a religious family myself (although nothing as extreme as your mother) and I understand the futility of trying to reason with someone who believes that they are right because they have God on their side. No logic will overcome dogma and people do get very defensive if their beiefs appear to be threatened.

Unfortunately many Irish people of our parents generation were taught not to question religion- although I think my mother and gran are both very intelligent women, I become infuriated at the amount of sh*te they will accept if it seems religious. I don't even mean normal Catholic dogma but lots of "unofficial" stuff such as apparitions in various holy places etc. A neighbour got my gran quite obsessed with Medjugorje (haven't a clue how to spell that, sorry!) a couple of years ago and was constantly giving her "religious" books etc written by random crazies. I picked up one of them one day and was absolutely disgusted- amid all the usual stuff there were all these insane rants about the devils work and about witches and satanists (apparently hospitals staff are full of them because they prey on the weak and need access to blood!). It was scary stuff (because it was so evidently the work of a sick mind) and I was furious that my gran, who was taught to be gullible about anything religious, was having her mind filled with this sort of crap.

Things came to a head one day when I arrived home to find some very weird man praying with her. It turned out he was some self-professed holy man that the neighbour had picked up on a trip to Medjugorje and had basically allowed to move in with them. Not only am I angry that they unquestioningly left some total stranger with my very elderly gran, but there was obviously something wrong with the man. I hated him within minutes- he was a sleazy little charlatan that preyed on unhappy people (both my gran and the neighbours had lost children and he claimed to be in touch with them, etc). I went mental, sat my mother down and told her that it had gone too far (she's not as religious so wasn't as aware of the content of the stuff my gran was being exposed to). We knew there was no point in confronting my gran as anything religious-seeming is good to her and she sees no distinctions; so we asked the parish priest to come visit her. He was happy to as he was utterly sick of the neighbours bothering him with all their mumbo-jumbo so had a chat with her and explained that none of that was verified by the Vatican and that it is outside of Catholic doctrine. She took it all very well from him as he is an authority figure to her, and because he is a priest she didn't see it as an attack on her beliefs.

Fortunately she never really got sucked in, but it took someone whose authority she respected to give her permission not to pay attention to any of that. These extremist sects represent their beliefs as being unquestionable, and it is very hard for someone who is religious to risk doubting any of what they are told.

I think it is likely that your mother is depressed- people are at their most susceptible to stuff like this when they are down, so talking to her doctor would be a very good idea too. I really think that reasoning with her about the extreme nature of her beliefs would come better from her priest than family though- not least because he should have the theological knowledge to argue with her on the same level!

Talliesin

Define your arguments a bit better.

You can't complain that she's in a sect, so is 95% of this country. You can't complain that she has religious paraphernalia when so does a very large number of people (I'd say still a majority have some of some form).

You can't complain that she goes to mass and prays, when so do most people.

And arguments about matters of degree are extremely hard to fight, because it's impossible to draw a line in any sort of objective manner.

So pretty much ignore all of the above in anything you say to her.

You make a bit of an argument about the fact that the group claims to be a sect within the RCC, when the Vatican says they aren't. You can make an argument about their claiming to have legitimately ordained priests by the rules of a religion that says they don't.

These arguments may mean something or mean nothing depending on how much the RCC orthodoxy means to her.

You can make an argument about the founder being sent down for two counts of aggravated sexual assault on 15-year old children, and not being due a parole hearing for another 5 years (along with lesser anti-social behaviour such as stalking Celine Dion).

You can point out that European Communism has quite a bit of rebuilding to do before marching on the Vatican, that World War 3 is now over-due and that the prophesies keep changing.

None of that should be brought forth as some sort of massive onslaught. There's no point describing her beliefs as "wrong". All that will do is create a Them/Us wall in her mind, which is exactly what abusive religious groups will try to do (you may find this interesting, btw), but only when she's brought up the topic first.

Talking to a RC parish priest may indeed be a good idea, depending on how much the order's claim to be within Catholicism is to her.

Mixedup

Be careful OP whatever you do, because these sects often make up their own rules as they go along..the fact that it is a Catholic sect wouldnt ease my mind at all..
Members of my family are in the 'Palmarian' sect, and while growing up we knew they had slightly different views on things, and more conservative dress code, it came to the point a few years ago where we can't see them at all anymore, and it was really heartbreaking.
Get advice from the Priest and her close friends maybe, and talk to your dad?
tread carefully though because you dont want to send her further into this than she already is..its scary when this stuff happens.

Inafix

Can you explain why you think your Mum would be hostile to chatting about the new church group with the PP?

After I spoke to a well known priest a few years ago ,who actually offered to speak to her, I made a fatal mistake of mentioning it to her at that time. She lost the plot and needless to say I backed off realizing that I had really touched a raw nerve.

As for the other poster who mentioned that a large percentage of people keep religious paraphernalia. Yes I would agree that most Irish people ,if they look around their drawers might have a few prayer books and perhaps a bible.
I am NOT talking about a few books. I know what I can see. I know what I am hearing coming out of her mouth. I have done my research and I know there is a big problem. This is NOT ordinary stuff like just going to mass and saying a rosary and then turning on Coronation Street!!!! Unfortunately I have not been able to keep an eye on whats going on as I work and live in a different part of the country.The book shelves are overflowing with stuff and ordinary day to day books are being removed to make way for all it all. Drawers in the guest rooms and other wardrobes are filled with boxes of medals, rosary beads other rubbish which she sends away for and buys when ever she can. I have seen all this stuff acculumate in a very short time. It's very worrying to see

LegacyUser

OP I'm not saying your mother is mentally ill BUT Mental illness can often manifest in religious obsession to varying extents. I have family experience of this and it is incredibly frustrating and to be honest no amount of talking or explaining (even from a priest) will actually make any difference. Obsession like that is by it's very nature irrational and no amount of explaining makes a blind bit of difference. The good thing about the fact that it is a catholic thing is that she is unlikely to become a danger to herself or others (although I haven't read the link you provided) but it is very very hard to live with. Unfortunately also in my experience it can sometimes be difficult to even get GPs to help.
OP IF you think that your mother may have signs of a mental illness you would be perfectly justified in talking privately to your GP and tell him/ her everything and I mean everything including the impact this is having on the family. If he/ she does nothing then try a different GP. Ask around til you find a sympathetic one.

Inafix

Unreg6: I take your point on board and agree that perhaps there are issues that have developed that perhaps may need professional attention. I think I may have given the impression to some posters that her behaviour is "harmless". I am sorry that I really have not divulged some of the more serious aspects of her behaviour. Again Unreg thanks for your supportive post:). I will try and make contact with her GP as soon as I get a chance to do so.

hairymolly

Unreg6 wrote: »

OP I'm not saying your mother is mentally ill BUT Mental illness can often manifest in religious obsession to varying extents. I have family experience of this and it is incredibly frustrating and to be honest no amount of talking or explaining (even from a priest) will actually make any difference. Obsession like that is by it's very nature irrational and no amount of explaining makes a blind bit of difference. The good thing about the fact that it is a catholic thing is that she is unlikely to become a danger to herself or others (although I haven't read the link you provided) but it is very very hard to live with. Unfortunately also in my experience it can sometimes be difficult to even get GPs to help.
OP IF you think that your mother may have signs of a mental illness you would be perfectly justified in talking privately to your GP and tell him/ her everything and I mean everything including the impact this is having on the family. If he/ she does nothing then try a different GP. Ask around til you find a sympathetic one.

+1 take your dad along to the GP with you. He can shed alot more light on the day to day goings on. Good luck and I hope the situation will be resolved for all of ye.

Creachadóir

I would also say that she needs to go to the GP, and that perhaps you should go to the GP to find out what would be the best way to get her there.

Unfortunately I am very aware from someone that I am very close to that the Parish Priest may not direct your mother to the doctor, and it really sounds like she has depression. She definitely needs to see somebody about it.

Apparently the religious form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder/Depression is one of the most difficult to treat and most difficult to get the patient to seek help for, so you'll need to get the ball rolling yourself I'd say.

promusica

The Order of the Little Pebble is one apocalyptic group that church authorities in Australia are worried about. Any group that has as its centre the "end times" is a cause of concern. I'm interested about the visits to Knock and Achill - are they, by any chance, to the House of Prayer: Another movement that does not have the official seal of approval by the Catholic Church. A post later down the page said that as long as they're Catholic, there's nothing much to worry about, as there are many other, more dangerous groups out there. I don't really agree. From what I know about these movements that you mention your mother is involved in, I'd be more than a little concerned. Ask her why she is storing food in the attic. Find out about her finances, and if she has handed (much) money over - often there will be an element of financial coercian. Mike Garde is very good, but he's on his own, as there is no funding out there for more investigation into these groups. Get a few reasonable priests on your side, and sit down with your mother for a decent chat. Arm yourself with as much information as you can find...

GirlInterrupted

Inafix wrote: »

I really appreciate the replies. Don't forget I have put off doing anything about this for quite a few years and my mothers attitude has really got worse.
Will the GP take my concerns on board d'ya reckon?

The GP would most definitely take your concerns seriously. Compulsive behaviour is often an early element of dementia, and depending on your mothers age etc. that could be a factor. Depression and obsessive compulsive disorder can go hand in hand too. I think it's gone beyond anything a PP can help with and is most likely a medical/mental health issue.

Inafix

I'm interested about the visits to Knock and Achill - are they, by any chance, to the House of Prayer:

Yes she's been going there for years and we have always thought it was a pile of s**te long before it was brought to National attention by the Sunday World. This is just one of her other involvements:mad:
And what she maybe doing with her finances is worrying me! I'm afraid she has gone past the stage where you can have a "decent rational chat" with her

LegacyUser

My mum's been like that for twenty or twenty-five years too, and it's no fun. During that time, there's almost nothing so awful that she hasn't accused me and my brothers and sisters of doing it to spite her. My dad's been guilt-tripped into supporting most of her fairly obnoxious views even though he doesn't really, but she can't see that. No empathy at all. Since she's a big fan of "natural medicine" (doctors are part of a conspiracy, you see), she treated my dad with "natural medicine" for what turned out later to be really high blood pressure (220 over 140) which caused him to have a stroke which very nearly killed him. She's a border-line alcoholic too and has been waiting for the end of the world since the early 1980's. First it was the russians, then it was some space aliens, now it's the EU (she's a fanatical "No to Lisbon" voter!)

It sounds like your mum is suffering the same kind of manic-depressive thing that my own mum suffers from and as kids, we never really got anywhere trying to make her see reason. Kids can't compete against god i suppose. One of my sisters wanted to have her declared insane and dragged off to the asylum. thank heavens that one was voted down!

My dad (who recovered mostly from the stroke) finally managed to get her to see a psychiatrist recently, so she's cut down on the booze and she's taking some kind of tablets which seem to be helping. So that's about the only thing i can recommend; get your dad in on the act.

Other than that? Been there. Done that. Feel the pain.

Mr. Incognito

My mother has been going to the house of prayer every weekend or second weekend for about 4 years. They are a cult- pure and simple. They are brainwashing everyone up there and have this "the world is a against us" attitude. I've tried rationalising it and she only gets angry, at this stage we just ignore it but it is very very dangerous and I am very very worried- there does not seem to be any support out there to counter-act these loonies.

I've read their newsletter and she runs a lottery. i think first prize is like €200 or that and I', sure entry is about a €5, with the proceeds going to the "church", with a few hundred patrons every week she is cleaning up.