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Did Ben ever know about Desmond?

  • 02-06-2008 8:36pm
    #1
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    This might be a stupid question, but I've just started rewatching season 2 and I'm wondering, Did Ben know that Desmond was in the Swan? Des is technically Dharma so surely Ben would have purged him if he knew. But it seems unlikely that Ben never realised he was there.


Comments

  • #2
    Nalz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,890 ✭✭✭✭Nalz


    Sure he must have if he was pressing that button every 108 mins!


  • #3
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    He must have guessed it had been being manned by someone while he was pretending to be Henry Gale, alright. Has it ever been specifically mentioned though?


  • #4
    Nalz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,890 ✭✭✭✭Nalz


    well its a good question cas if he were to find out desmonds name he could have used his contacts in the real world to do a check on him, then he'd find out of his connections with Penny....who is Whithmores daughter.......bla bla bla my head hurts!


  • #5
    Sad Professor
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,693 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Ben had been in the Pearl station and would have seen Desmond/Kelvin on the monitors so he definitely knew that Desmond was down there. The real question is: what did he know of The Swan and it's purpose?

    I have 2 theories:

    Theory #1 (which I always believed up until now):

    Ben knew *of* The Swan hatch and that there was *a* guy down there pushing a button every 108 minutes. But he give a s**t because he didn't know The Swan's true purpose. He thought it was exactly what the Pearl orientation video told him it was: a psychological experiment. "This place is a joke," he later told Locke. He was only a janitor after all and thought all the Dharma stations were for "silly experiments". Everything he knew about the island he learned from The Others. Dharma kept The Swan's true purpose hidden from it's own membership. Even the guys in the hatch didn't know what it was for.

    All of this is based on the assumption that letting the numbers count down to zero would have been disasterous and caused world wide catastrophe or destroyed the island or other bad stuff, which had Ben known he wouldn't have left Desmond down there, nor would he have been f**king around with Locke in season 2. He couldn't have predicted that Desmond would turn the failsafe key and save everyone.

    And what was The Swan's true purpose? In *this theory*, a cork/dam over the island's volcano. Dharma accidentally dug too deep trying to unearth the island's secrets and opened a fissure in the island's electromagnetic core. This caused "the incident". Left open it could destroy the island but instead of just resealing it Dharma built a dam, The Swan, over it so they could siphon off some of that electromagnetism for experimentation or whatever. When Desmond turned the key he sealed that leak permanently.

    Theory #2 (based on the S4 finale):

    Letting the numbers count down to nothing would have done exactly what turning the wheel did: move the island. Ben wanted this because he already knew Widmore's boat was on the way, hence the reason he tried to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button. He wanted the island to move. The purple sky event we saw at the end of season 2 was the island starting to move but because Desmond turned the failsafe key it never completed.

    /end theories.

    Tbh I prefer Theory 1. I like the idea that pushing the button was of life and death importance. That Jack and Locke's conflict over it was also a conflict over the island itself. Plus it just fits better with stuff the writers have hinted at over the years.

    SP


  • #6
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,902 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Faith wrote: »
    This might be a stupid question, but I've just started rewatching season 2 and I'm wondering, Did Ben know that Desmond was in the Swan? Des is technically Dharma so surely Ben would have purged him if he knew. But it seems unlikely that Ben never realised he was there.

    Des is Dharma???

    Not sure what you mean by that.
    The purge was 12 years ago and des wasn't on island then


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  • #7
    Sinfonia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭Sinfonia


    Sad Professor wrote: »
    Ben knew *of* The Swan hatch and that there was *a* guy down there pushing a button every 108 minutes. But he give a s**t because he didn't know The Swan's true purpose. He thought it was exactly what the Pearl orientation video told him it was: a psychological experiment. "This place is a joke," he later told Locke. He was only a janitor after all and thought all the Dharma stations were for "silly experiments".
    At one point Ben had to push the button because Locke was trapped under the door. He told Locke that he didn't bother pushing it, but surely we now know that he did push the button, because there was no catastrophe. So why did he push the button?


  • #8
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,615 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Sad Professor wrote: »
    Theory #2 (based on the S4 finale):

    Letting the numbers count down to nothing would have done exactly what turning the wheel did: move the island. Ben wanted this because he already knew Widmore's boat was on the way, hence the reason he tried to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button. He wanted the island to move. The purple sky event we saw at the end of season 2 was the island starting to move but because Desmond turned the failsafe key it never completed.

    I always though that Widmore only organised the boat after the Hatch exploded at the end of Season2, how could he have known where the island before this? (Hatch explodes, Portuguese explorers get a fix, ring Penny etc).

    Therefore logically Ben couldn't have known of the boat before the hatch exploded?


  • #9
    Sinfonia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭Sinfonia


    Mellor wrote: »
    Des is Dharma???

    Not sure what you mean by that.
    The purge was 12 years ago and des wasn't on island then

    Well he was 'recruited' by Kelvin, and was doing Dharma's work


  • #10
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,615 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    SumGuy wrote: »
    At one point Ben had to push the button because Locke was trapped under the door. He told Locke that he didn't bother pushing it, but surely we now know that he did push the button, because there was no catastrophe. So why did he push the button?

    It was Lockdown episode I think, and Ben (whilst wanting the button not to be pushed) would have had no way of getting out of the hatch before it exploded.
    Therefore he had to push the numbers on that occasion, but was happy to tell Locke he hadn't, in the hope that it would go to zero at some later stage whilst he was well away from the explosion.


  • #11
    Sad Professor
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,693 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    SumGuy wrote: »
    At one point Ben had to push the button because Locke was trapped under the door. He told Locke that he didn't bother pushing it, but surely we now know that he did push the button, because there was no catastrophe. So why did he push the button?
    I have a few ideas about this. He had to push the button because he needed to use the computer to communicate with his people (as Michael did with "Walt" earlier in the season). Plus he probably just wanted to f**k around with Locke a bit more. When he later told Locke he didn't push the button it was a half-truth. He did actually push it but he honestly didn't think anything would happen if he didn't.
    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    I always though that Widmore only organised the boat after the Hatch exploded at the end of Season2, how could he have known where the island before this? (Hatch explodes, Portuguese explorers get a fix, ring Penny etc).

    Therefore logically Ben couldn't have known of the boat before the hatch exploded?
    Yeah you're right. I didn't think my second theory through that well, it was a thought based on the similarity of the two purple sky events.

    SP


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  • #12
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Was Kelvin one of the others or the very last of Dharma?


  • #13
    Sad Professor
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,693 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    doctor evil wrote: »
    Was Kelvin one of the others or the very last of Dharma?
    Dharma. There's nothing (so far) to suggest he was an Other.

    SP


  • #14
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Must have been a very lovely Dharma, do you think he knew about the extermination? Could explain why he wore the suit outside - which could also have been just part of the job from the beginning. He must have become disullisioned as he left the hatch with a tear in his leg.


  • #15
    Sad Professor
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,693 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    doctor evil wrote: »
    Must have been a very lovely Dharma, do you think he knew about the extermination? Could explain why he wore the suit outside - which could also have been just part of the job from the beginning. He must have become disullisioned as he left the hatch with a tear in his leg.
    The Purge happened in 1992. We don't know exactly how long Kelvin was down there but it's fair to assume he was recruited shortly after the Gulf War ended in '91. So yeah he and Radzinsky probably used the suits as a precaution against being gassed by Ben, although as years passed it became less of a danger and he only needed it to trick Desmond.

    SP


  • #16
    Niall0
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Niall0


    Sad Professor wrote: »
    Theory #2 (based on the S4 finale):

    Letting the numbers count down to nothing would have done exactly what turning the wheel did: move the island. Ben wanted this because he already knew Widmore's boat was on the way, hence the reason he tried to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button. He wanted the island to move. The purple sky event we saw at the end of season 2 was the island starting to move but because Desmond turned the failsafe key it never completed.

    SP
    I think your onto something here, the only thing i wouldnt be sure about is bens motivation, but well never really know that.


  • #17
    Shellie13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭Shellie13


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    I always though that Widmore only organised the boat after the Hatch exploded at the end of Season2, how could he have known where the island before this? (Hatch explodes, Portuguese explorers get a fix, ring Penny etc).

    Therefore logically Ben couldn't have known of the boat before the hatch exploded?

    Unless you take into consideration the playing around with time...


  • #18
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Mellor wrote: »
    Des is Dharma???

    Not sure what you mean by that.
    The purge was 12 years ago and des wasn't on island then

    He wore a Dharma outfit, ddid a Dharma job, was recruited by a Dharma person, ate Dharma food, lived in a Dharma station... That's what I mean. He's Dharma. Presumably the people in the hatch escaped the purge and continued on with their work.


  • #19
    cooker3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,646 ✭✭✭cooker3


    Faith wrote: »
    He wore a Dharma outfit, ddid a Dharma job, was recruited by a Dharma person, ate Dharma food, lived in a Dharma station... That's what I mean. He's Dharma. Presumably the people in the hatch escaped the purge and continued on with their work.

    He wasn't recruited by dharma. He arrived on the island by chance, or maybe by faith depending on whose camp your in.
    But he is not officially dharma. He did what he was told to do cause he thought he didn't have an other choice


  • #20
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    cooker3 wrote: »
    He wasn't recruited by dharma. He arrived on the island by chance, or maybe by faith depending on whose camp your in.
    But he is not officially dharma. He did what he was told to do cause he thought he didn't have an other choice

    Teeheeheeheeheehee...!

    He was "recruited" by Kelvin, who was Dharma. I guess it's not the same thing, but it's good enough for me!


  • #21
    cooker3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,646 ✭✭✭cooker3


    Faith wrote: »
    Teeheeheeheeheehee...!

    He was "recruited" by Kelvin, who was Dharma. I guess it's not the same thing, but it's good enough for me!

    Judging by your obsession with desmond in every episode review, I wouldn't be shocked if you had a part to play :)


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  • #22
    Talisman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Talisman


    Sad Professor wrote: »
    Theory #2 (based on the S4 finale):

    Letting the numbers count down to nothing would have done exactly what turning the wheel did: move the island. Ben wanted this because he already knew Widmore's boat was on the way, hence the reason he tried to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button. He wanted the island to move. The purple sky event we saw at the end of season 2 was the island starting to move but because Desmond turned the failsafe key it never completed.
    It's possible that Ben suspected that Widmore was about to do something - the appearance of the Oceanic 815 plane at the bottom of the ocean would have been a huge tip off.


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