How interested would you be in going to see/gambling on Harness Racing

WHIP IT!

Harness Racing is looking to make something of a comeback in Ireland with the planned development of a purpose-built facility in Collon, Co Louth.

Until this is built, harness racing will continue to be run at temporary venues around the country. There are plans in the pipeline for some race meetings on the all-weather course at Dundalk later this year.

In my opinion, Harness Racing is the best kept secret in the sporting world.

I was just wondering what other people thought and how many people would be interested in going to see harness racing if it were more readily available in this country?

pro_gnostic_8

Not sure that it would attract much patronage whatsoever. The culture and tradition of the horsey-type demographic in this country is much more heavily weighted towards the galloping testing of horses (racing) rather than trotters or pacers as in harness racing. And any little I've seen of Harness Racing has struck me as similar to banded type All Weather dross you occasionally get at the gaff UK A/W tracks. Mediocre horses running as betting shop fodder.

Yes I know it is popular in France, but seven or eight years ago it died a death a couple of months after being introduced in England at Lingfield. All the hype and promotion counted for nothing -- it just didn't take off.

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pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Not sure that it would attract much patronage whatsoever. The culture and tradition of the horsey-type demographic in this country is much more heavily weighted towards the galloping testing of horses (racing) rather than trotters or pacers as in harness racing. And any little I've seen of Harness Racing has struck me as similar to banded type All Weather dross you occasionally get at the gaff UK A/W tracks. Mediocre horses running as betting shop fodder.

Yes I know it is popular in France, but seven or eight years ago it died a death a couple of months after being introduced in England at Lingfield. All the hype and promotion counted for nothing -- it just didn't take off .

Didn't realise they tried it at Lingfield although harness racing in the UK is very much alive and well - they have several race meetings a week and - as Ireland is to a lesser extent - the country is choc-full of excellently well-bred horses.

I just love the colour of the sport and the spectacular nature of the races. Like thoroughbreds I suppose, it's more important that horses are grouped together accurately for the sake of close racing than it is that they are of the highest quality.

pro_gnostic_8

Oh, I do quite agree. Harness racing is a colourful and exciting spectacle.

And yes, it does appear that the sport is gaining in popularity in the U.K. It has been well-established in Wales for a while now. But the thing is, it just hasn't made the leap to being "mainstream" like regular thoroughbred racing.

Until a verifiable and transparent betting element is incorporated into the sport I'm afraid that it will be of limited appeal to the wider public. And there's the rub! ............ the main-street betting offices will not "carry" betting shows on harness racing because there is really no recognised Betting Authority (like Tattersalls and the P.A.) to verify Starting Price returns on harness racing. Without the fodder of betting shop punters and the subsequent levy Harness Racing will struggle.

I note that trials took place at Dundalk last Wednesday. I wonder how it went -- I'haven't seen any reports.

dreemer

Goooooooo harness racing! At least the riders are taller than 4 feet...:p

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pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Oh, I do quite agree. Harness racing is a colourful and exciting spectacle.

And yes, it does appear that the sport is gaining in popularity in the U.K. It has been well-established in Wales for a while now. But the thing is, it just hasn't made the leap to being "mainstream" like regular thoroughbred racing.

Until a verifiable and transparent betting element is incorporated into the sport I'm afraid that it will be of limited appeal to the wider public. And there's the rub! ............ the main-street betting offices will not "carry" betting shows on harness racing because there is really no recognised Betting Authority (like Tattersalls and the P.A.) to verify Starting Price returns on harness racing. Without the fodder of betting shop punters and the subsequent levy Harness Racing will struggle.

I note that trials took place at Dundalk last Wednesday. I wonder how it went -- I'haven't seen any reports.

Went very well. Lovely setting and my first time in the Dundalk all-weather, it's a lovely facility I must say... There are plans for up to four meetings this year with the pupose-built harness track in the pipeline for 2010.

By the way Pro_gnostic - I note you're from Cork. If you'd been around Leap over the weekend you'd have seen plenty of Harness Racing at Central Track - I'd have even given ya a few winners, was a good day for the raiding Dubs!

Some Pics from Dundalk trial race last Wednesday:

meriwether

This is big enough in Australia actually.
I wouldn't put a penny on it though.
IMO its betting shop fodder - up there with banded racing, virtual racing,49's and novelty bets.
But each to his own though, and just because Im not interested, doesn't mean loads of others aren't.

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meriwether wrote: »

This is big enough in Australia actually.
I wouldn't put a penny on it though.
IMO its betting shop fodder - up there with banded racing, virtual racing,49's and novelty bets.
But each to his own though, and just because Im not interested, doesn't mean loads of others aren't.

Yes some of the most successful trainers around in recent years have come from Oz and NZ (Brett Pelling being the most succesful of them). It's massive also in France and Scandinavia. However, Ireland and the UK are funnily enough the only place in Europe you will find "pacers" (side-gaited horses) - France, Sweden, Denmark etc deal only in "trotters" (diagnol-gaited).

pro_gnostic_8

dreemer wrote: »

Goooooooo harness racing! At least the riders are taller than 4 feet...:p

? I don't see anyone on horseback. I would have though they would be known as "drivers"

Excellent pics WHIP IT. Many thanks for those.
In actual fact, I'm regretting now having voted "NO" in the poll. I think I would like to experience harness racing in the flesh ............. damn I'll pay a visit to some meet before the summer is out.
Yep, Dundalk is a fine set-up .......... good modern facilities, and a wide fair track and surface. I wish harness racing at the venue the best of luck.

(Glad to hear you took a few bob of the locals in Leap; they're tight bastids down there. )

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pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

? I don't see anyone on horseback. I would have though they would be known as "drivers"

Excellent pics WHIP IT. Many thanks for those.
In actual fact, I'm regretting now having voted "NO" in the poll. I think I would like to experience harness racing in the flesh ............. damn I'll pay a visit to some meet before the summer is out.
Yep, Dundalk is a fine set-up .......... good modern facilities, and a wide fair track and surface. I wish harness racing at the venue the best of luck.

(Glad to hear you took a few bob of the locals in Leap; they're tight bastids down there. )

:pac: Don't I know it - the bookies hand it over through gritted teeth I can tell ya!

For anyone who may be interested - the dates have been confirmed today: Two dates for now: Sunday July 27 and Sunday August 10 @ Dundalk Racecourse.

That's all for now, possibly one in September but baby steps I guess.

I promise to come back and hand out a few tips the week of both meetings - can't say fairer than that!

Thanks for those who took time to take part in the poll.

WHIP IT!

Just a quick update lads, there has also now been a Harness Racing meeting provisionally booked for WEXFORD RACECOURSE on Sunday September 7 for anyone interested.

Thanks

pro_gnostic_8

Quite strange!
I'm somewhat taken aback by this. Wexford is an undulating track ......... bumpy. I would have tought it most unsuitable for harness.
Are they going to have a trial experiment first?

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pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Quite strange!
I'm somewhat taken aback by this. Wexford is an undulating track ......... bumpy. I would have tought it most unsuitable for harness.
Are they going to have a trial experiment first?

I believe they raced there before about eight years go? Harness horses in this part of the world will often race on grass - Tregaron in Wales being the best place on these islands for it, their track is like a pool table or a fairway on a golf course. Fantastic surface.

Harness horses are tougher than you would think and - although the surface in a place like Dundalk is obviously far more ideal - they are well able to race on grass and endure the humps and hollows. It goes without saying that times for the mile would be slower on grass than on a dirt track and, of course, some horses just don't take to racing on grass and would therefore be kept for dirt durfaces - ie, Central Track in Leap, Tir Prince in Wales and York Raceway in England.


Pro_gnostic, I get the feeling you've caught the harness racing bug! I know a lad selling a lovely two-year old if you're interested!... :pac:

pro_gnostic_8

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I get the feeling you've caught the harness racing bug!

Quite so! The more I read of it the more it intrigues me. E.G., I'm astounded to learn that the sport is more popular worldwide than "regular" thoroughbred racing. And that in France the prizemoney on offer is greater than that for Natinal Hunt. The prize fund for the Cup d'Amerique is second only to that for the Prix d'Arc.
Unfortunately, in the U.K. there is no television coverage of the sport, either terrestial or satellite ............ nor streaming internet. And the opportunity to have a bet on these big races is limited to Pari Mutuel. A pity.

I intend to visit a harness racing meeting soon. Thanks for bringing this fascinating game to our attention. Give us an update prior to the Dundalk meeting.

WHIP IT!

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Quite so! The more I read of it the more it intrigues me. E.G., I'm astounded to learn that the sport is more popular worldwide than "regular" thoroughbred racing. And that in France the prizemoney on offer is greater than that for Natinal Hunt. The prize fund for the Cup d'Amerique is second only to that for the Prix d'Arc.
Unfortunately, in the U.K. there is no television coverage of the sport, either terrestial or satellite ............ nor streaming internet. And the opportunity to have a bet on these big races is limited to Pari Mutuel. A pity.

I intend to visit a harness racing meeting soon. Thanks for bringing this fascinating game to our attention. Give us an update prior to the Dundalk meeting.

Sorry for the tardy reply Pro

Yes it's certainly a fascinating game alright, I don't know anyone I've introduced to harness racing who hasn't really liked it! I suppose it would be alot more affordable that the thoroughbreds as far as getting involved at an ownership level etc.

Here's a British site that actually does show some streaming for the bigger meetings, have a look through the vids and see how us Paddies take all the big prizes on the standardbred circuit as well

http://www.s4c.co.uk/rasus/e_index.shtml

pro_gnostic_8

Heh, you forgot to put up a link to the vid site! Or was that a canny motive to whet our appetite?

Bought the Irish Field last Saturday as per usual and was most disappointed not to see a single line of coverage of the Dundalk trial. Besides the normal comprehensive coverage of thoroughbred racing both Home and international, articles on Dressage, pages on Eventing, columns on carriage (hackney) driving and everything else under the sun to do with a horse .......... .........
not a single word on trotting. Why? Hobart: have a word with the management willya!

pro_gnostic_8

A new take on trotting!
This took place at Kempton Park after racing two days ago:
http://www.kempton.co.uk/experience/readnews.aspx?id=92

Is that Nora Batty driving one of the carts?

WHIP IT!

http://www.s4c.co.uk/rasus/e_index.shtml

Sorry Pro - here's the link! :pac:

As for the coverage in the Field, we usually do have some coverage during the busy season but, thing is, the last couple of seasons weren't that busy!

WHIP IT!

http://www.bhrc.org.uk/new/Forms/kemptonpark.pdf

The good oul English must get all their bright ideas from us Paddies.

Anyone ever been at Kempton, what's it like?

WHIP IT!

Just a bit of an update lads, a fairly significane one at that mind you.

All the races from both meetings at Dundalk (July 27 and August 10) are to be shown live on SIS and will be available to gamble on from off-track bookies etc.

It's also possible it will be shown on ATR for the laptop/betfair brigade (of which I am one!) so for anyone interested, Post Time on Day One is 2.15pm and the races will be shown in between the Curragh card on the day.

Thanks Lads

pro_gnostic_8

There was a full card of trotting races at Hereford last Sunday (the 13th.)
Seems it was quite successful too ............. an attendance comparable to a normal mid-week jumps meeting even though nearby Stratford NH was on the same day.

Betfair seemed impressed with the trotting race after normal racing on Wednesday night. According to Thursday's Racing Post:

BETFAIR on Thursday urged that harness racing be considered as a possible outlet for the four blank Sundays in next year's fixture list after describing themselves “astonished” by the amount of money staked on a one-off trial contest at Kempton on Wednesday night.

A total of £80,389 was matched with the exchange firm on Kempton's seven-runner harness event, broadcast live by Racing UK at 9.40pm following a seven-race card at the all-weather venue.
Betfair spokesman Tony Calvin said: “We were astonished by how popular the harness race turned out to be. The race attracted more money than any of the night's American races, while 1,014 individual customers had a bet on it, which, based on any metric you use, is very favourable.

“To put it in comparison, last week's Arab race at Newmarket, also televised by Racing UK, saw just over £46,000 matched – but crucially a lot of that trade was in running. Last night's harness race wasn't offered in play, so that comparison is even more favourable.

“We now have to look seriously at harness racing .............

WHIP IT!

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

There was a full card of trotting races at Hereford last Sunday (the 13th.)
Seems it was quite successful too ............. an attendance comparable to a normal mid-week jumps meeting even though nearby Stratford NH was on the same day.

Betfair seemed impressed with the trotting race after normal racing on Wednesday night. According to Thursday's Racing Post:

BETFAIR on Thursday urged that harness racing be considered as a possible outlet for the four blank Sundays in next year's fixture list after describing themselves “astonished” by the amount of money staked on a one-off trial contest at Kempton on Wednesday night.

A total of £80,389 was matched with the exchange firm on Kempton's seven-runner harness event, broadcast live by Racing UK at 9.40pm following a seven-race card at the all-weather venue.
Betfair spokesman Tony Calvin said: “We were astonished by how popular the harness race turned out to be. The race attracted more money than any of the night's American races, while 1,014 individual customers had a bet on it, which, based on any metric you use, is very favourable.

“To put it in comparison, last week's Arab race at Newmarket, also televised by Racing UK, saw just over £46,000 matched – but crucially a lot of that trade was in running. Last night's harness race wasn't offered in play, so that comparison is even more favourable.

“We now have to look seriously at harness racing .............

TO be honest, I think that may have sealed the deal with us and SIS on this side of the water.

It has been confirmed since my last post that the races will be shown on ATR in between races from the Curragh on the same day. The Harness racing post time is 2.20pm for the first race. There will be 9 races. Eight paces and one trot.

As promised, I will swing by with a few tips for anyone who might want a playful flutter on the day.

pro_gnostic_8

WHIP IT! wrote: »

anyone who might want a playful flutter on the day.

Hopefully the Dundalk books will be a bit more generous than their English counterparts. :mad:
The below pic was taken by an acquaintance of mine at Hereford trotting last Wednesday. ( I'll leave it to others to calculate the extortionate over-round).

WHIP IT!

Not much of a gambler so don't know what an "overround" is but there will be specialist harness racing bookies at Dundalk and there should be dozens of em so hopefully the betting ring will be a little more competitive.

Will be back with tips in a day or two.

Plenty of Cork charges in with a good shout btw, Pr0_gnostic.

pro_gnostic_8

Well, this is so disappointing!!! ATR are NOT showing the trotting ( at least not so far -- no show of the 2.20 and no mention of any of the races to come).

TBH, this venture will not prosper without TV live coverage. The amount traded on Betdaq for the first was only €4,200 -- and most of that would be recycled money ( backing to lay and vice versa.) Without TV it's not a betting proposition.

WHIP IT!

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Well, this is so disappointing!!! ATR are NOT showing the trotting ( at least not so far -- no show of the 2.20 and no mention of any of the races to come).

TBH, this venture will not prosper without TV live coverage. The amount traded on Betdaq for the first was only €4,200 -- and most of that would be recycled money ( backing to lay and vice versa.) Without TV it's not a betting proposition.

Yes, big disappointment they didn't show the early races. I guess we'd a lot of competition today with the Curragh and Ascot.

They showed three races later in the card which was great but unfortunately, the race-framers had put the better races on earlier in the day. The first five races were the highest rated races and they were fantastic.

I'm not a big gambler so I don't really look at it from that point of view - I just loved the racing today - but I realise that we will live and die by the bottom line: ie, money bet!

Next meeting is August 10. Competing with Leopardstown that day, but hopefully things continue to progress.

Last point - what a fantastic facility Dundalk Stadium is. Brilliant.

WHIP IT!

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Well, this is so disappointing!!! ATR are NOT showing the trotting ( at least not so far -- no show of the 2.20 and no mention of any of the races to come).

TBH, this venture will not prosper without TV live coverage. The amount traded on Betdaq for the first was only €4,200 -- and most of that would be recycled money ( backing to lay and vice versa.) Without TV it's not a betting proposition.

Pro_gnostic - just a quick word to let you know, ATR have guaranteed they will show the opening five race of our next meeting, on Sunday week, August 10. They will possibly show some of our later races on the card also.

pro_gnostic_8

Good news. Thanks for that.

It needs television -- and live coverage at that. I'll put forward myself as an example ............. just a normal punter like so many others. Last Sunday I had a bet in the first (2.20), fully expecting to be able to watch the action. Then, no show! That was the end of my interest for the day and the rest of the card. I would have had a bet in each race ( very small stakes) but without coverage that was not going to be.

I can't comment on the figures on Betdaq or Betfair as I wasn't playing, but I do know that the course "book" on the 5.30 (final race) was 200% which is a f***ing joke. A layers benefit.

WHIP IT!

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Good news. Thanks for that.

It needs television -- and live coverage at that. I'll put forward myself as an example ............. just a normal punter like so many others. Last Sunday I had a bet in the first (2.20), fully expecting to be able to watch the action. Then, no show! That was the end of my interest for the day and the rest of the card. I would have had a bet in each race ( very small stakes) but without coverage that was not going to be.

I can't comment on the figures on Betdaq or Betfair as I wasn't playing, but I do know that the course "book" on the 5.30 (final race) was 200% which is a f***ing joke. A layers benefit.

Excuse my ignorance Pro, but as a casual gambler this goes over my head: What exactly does this mean, is this 'over-round'?

The 5.30 was a maiden (good race as it happened!) and I would imagine there wasn't much heavy betting involved.

pro_gnostic_8

Over-round being the sum in totality of the odds of all the horses in a race (expressed as a percentage) that is "over" a neutral book. Around 125% would be average -- for every €125 euro a bookmaker takes in he would be paying out €100 in winnings. The 125% overound is his margin .......... 25% profit on turnover (when all the horses in a race are appropiately backed according to their odds).
However, in the 5.30 Dundalk race the over-round was 200% giving a margin of 100% profit on turnover ............... which is plain sick .

Therein lies a primary advantage of betting exchanges -- the over-round will hardly ever rise above 101% due to automated "Bots" kicking in when a margin appears in the course of trading.

Coldstream

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Didn't realise they tried it at Lingfield although harness racing in the UK is very much alive and well - they have several race meetings a week and - as Ireland is to a lesser extent - the country is choc-full of excellently well-bred horses.

I just love the colour of the sport and the spectacular nature of the races. Like thoroughbreds I suppose, it's more important that horses are grouped together accurately for the sake of close racing than it is that they are of the highest quality.

I am very interested in receiving any information you could provide regarding Harness Racing in Ireland. I am relocatiing to Ireland in the next few months and very much want to get involved in the sport. I have raced horses in the US for many years.