Democracy -- are poeple voting with their feet?

ART6

Reading the many posts here about the Lisbon Treaty and other issues, I see that many of them seem to indicate a dislike and distrust of politicians in general, and this view seems to be supported by reports in the news media. Also, published research suggests that voting turnout on many countries including Ireland has plummeted over the last 50 years (eg: "The Generational Basis of Turnout Decline in Established Democracies" -- Franklin, Lyons & Marsh, UA, UCD & Trinity College Dublin). One of the explananations suggested is that younger people now have the right to vote but often don't, resulting in a percentage decline. But that seems to me like an over-generalisation. My own kids, now well grown up, generally don't vote, for the reason that "They are all a group of liars anyway, so why vote for any of them? Whoever gets in will be as bad as the last lot."

OK, so the obvious questions:

Do you think younger people tend to be cynical about politicians, or is it a growing reaction throughout the electorate?
Have the politicians of all parties brought this on themselves by their conduct?
If the voter turnout continues to decline through cynicism, what is the future for democracy?
Will voter cynicism affect the vote for or against the Lisbon Treaty rather than consideration of what it actually offers?

My personal view? Reduce the number of TDs to a maximum of ten, lock them in the Dail for five years and don't let them out at the end of their term, ignore whatever they say and shoot the rest -- Oh well, I like being an anarchist:D

Dinter

It's because at the moment many people feel disillusioned with voting.

Elections are still being decided by people who vote for parties rather than people or policies.

It's still a few years away before the "party faithful" die off and we can look forward to political parties having to pander to the electorate without being able to depend on the set amount of first preferences that most political dynasties can.

I would say that eventually something along the lines of how both Labour and the Tories in the UK have had to overhaul themselves at grassroot level and indeed political outlook will occur here.

However at the moment there is no point when there are just so many bleating sheep deciding how the country is run.

Dashticle

Young people tend to be cynical of democracy because they are more aware of the world around them and the practical effects of voting. They see outcomes like the Nice treaty (we'll keep making ye vote until ye vote the right way) and become disillusioned with the process.

thelordofcheese

Dashticle wrote: »

They see outcomes like the Nice treaty (we'll keep making ye vote until ye vote the right way) and become disillusioned with the process.

So they're raging against something they havn't got a clue about?
Typical.

Sherifu

ART6 wrote: »

Do you think younger people tend to be cynical about politicians, or is it a growing reaction throughout the electorate?

Moreso the younger people.

ART6 wrote: »

Have the politicians of all parties brought this on themselves by their conduct?

They haven't helped. How is Cullen still in office...

ART6 wrote: »

If the voter turnout continues to decline through cynicism, what is the future for democracy?

A Telly Bingo style election system.

ART6 wrote: »

Will voter cynicism affect the vote for or against the Lisbon Treaty rather than consideration of what it actually offers?

Yes.

kowloon

It seems most couldn't even be arsed putting an opinion in the thread.:pac:

utick

wouldnt waste my time voting for politicians, only bother voting in referendums where you have a direct say in the issue

RATM

Theres a theory in political science that the two main parties don't want young ppl to vote because its shown historically that younger voters are overwhelmingly on the left. The idealised little nippers would be voting for the Greens, Lab., et al on single issues like climate change, the economy isn't really an issue for them when they're on crappy money and dont have a mortgage.
So then FF & FG always purposely hold election days on a Thursday rather than a weekend to make it even harder for college students to vote. Every few years between elections they'll make some rumblings about changing to weekend voting but alas nothing ever comes from it.

A neat trick, and one that serves to make young ppl even more cynical of politics thus ensuring they dont vote which was the plan of the two main parties in the first instance. Politicians 1 Young People 0

mikemac

It's a good point RATM and I always wondered why they put elections on a Thursday as it makes it difficult for students and especially college students who still use their home address.

Trust me, once you start paying 41% tax, you lose a lot of your idealism and you start concentrating on what's best for your pocket.

nyarlothothep

people need to concentrate on the bigger picture instead of their pockets

RATM

micmclo wrote: »

It's a good point RATM and I always wondered why they put elections on a Thursday as it makes it difficult for students and especially college students who still use their home address.

Trust me, once you start paying 41% tax, you lose a lot of your idealism and you start concentrating on what's best for your pocket.

Thats so true, look at how FF fought the last election more or less solely on the issue of the economy, the famous 1992 Clinton campaign slogan "Its the economy, Stupid !" comes to mind. By constantly selling the idea of having hard financial times ahead they made ppl think about their pockets and thats what really helped them get back in power

The Rock the Vote campaigns to get young ppl to vote are fairly visible across college campuses but thats only reaching 25-35% of the younger population. And its the part of the population that finds it even harder to get home to vote, it costs them time and money they don't have.

Perhaps someday we'll have text voting ( C'mon Cullen, give it another lash:D) and then the power of the youth vote would become apparent.

kowloon

Paying tax never persuaded me to suppress my ideas of right and wrong.
I still have nothing but contempt for the majority of politicians. :pac:

taidghbaby

Dinter wrote: »

It's still a few years away before the "party faithful" die off and we can look forward to political parties having to pander to the electorate without being able to depend on the set amount of first preferences that most political dynasties can.

very true-i know plenty of die hards who vote for their party regardless of what their policies are.
it seems that the majority of peoples' votes are decided upon because of tradition etc.
until we see an election where "EVERY" vote has to be fought for then young people aint gonna be interested and just gonna think : whats the point!

kowloon

I wonder how many young voters were disillusioned by the "green party sell out"

nyarlothothep

I was, it was something that would be so atypical that it would make you think, nah it won't happen, and then they become fine fails lap dogs.

I think disillusionment is a negative passive reaction though, if anything the state of Irish politics should be a politically mobilizing force among the public. It should make people angry enough to enact change themselves by getting involved in public/institutional processes, setting up networks of communication and action, demonstrating, rather than hoping politicians will do it for them as in a nanny state.

Politicians in my view are public servants, they are given a great degree of power to serve us, they are not there to run our lives. Therefore they must be made fully accountable to the public at all times. And for this to happen imo there needs to be a change in culture.

The culture at the moment is passive as a result imo of a consumer individualist mindset which diverts attention away from the things that really matter. But historically, as far as I recall, once the economy starts to suffer people become politically engaged because their sense of equilibrium is disrupted

super_furry

Given the choice between Finna Fail and Fine Gail, there's no real choice. It's like two different brands of vanilla ice-cream. I always vote Socialist, but realistically, it's not going to make any difference so the 'why bother?' aspect is there.

kerry4sam

What would greatly help this country is if people got involved in politics at a younger age and work on it from there ... Some people today are listening to the way it was as opposed to the way it is today.

Even FF is making changes for the better and is stamping out some of the old habits that drew controversy (eg Galway tent) and is adapting to include the voices of youth more and more.

The number of people who vote with their feet in regards the treaty next week and the outcome of said vote will say alot will speak volumes for the way people view democracy today.

People are more wrapped up in their own lives and what they can gain, that they are not factoring in what could happen if a more unified approach were taken by getting involved in even your own local politics and with the local elections next year, your local councillors will be more than happy to listen to your opinions and concerns and how the system in your area can improve

ART6

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I was, it was something that would be so atypical that it would make you think, nah it won't happen, and then they become fine fails lap dogs.

I think disillusionment is a negative passive reaction though, if anything the state of Irish politics should be a politically mobilizing force among the public. It should make people angry enough to enact change themselves by getting involved in public/institutional processes, setting up networks of communication and action, demonstrating, rather than hoping politicians will do it for them as in a nanny state.

Politicians in my view are public servants, they are given a great degree of power to serve us, they are not there to run our lives. Therefore they must be made fully accountable to the public at all times. And for this to happen imo there needs to be a change in culture.

The culture at the moment is passive as a result imo of a consumer individualist mindset which diverts attention away from the things that really matter. But historically, as far as I recall, once the economy starts to suffer people become politically engaged because their sense of equilibrium is disrupted

And they are paid one hell of a lot for it:mad: