Women priests to face excommunication

Mena

This may have been (?) more appropriate for the Christianity forum however I feel more comfortable here, feel free to move if required.

Source: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0529/breaking107.htm

Last Updated: 29/05/2008 21:19Women priests to face excommunication

The Vatican issued its most explicit decree so far against the ordination of women priests today, punishing them and the bishops who try to ordain them with automatic excommunication.

The decree was written by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and published in the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano , giving it immediate effect.

A Vatican spokesman said the decree made the Church's existing ban on women priests more explicit by clarifying that excommunication would follow all such ordinations.

Excommunication forbids those affected from receiving the sacraments or sharing in acts of public worship.

Rev Tom Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University, said he thought the decree was meant to send a warning to the growing number of Catholics who favour admitting women to the priesthood.

"I think the reason they're doing this is that they've realised there is more and more support among Catholics for ordaining women, and they want to make clear that this is a no-no," Reese said.

The Church says it cannot change the rules banning women from the priesthood because Christ chose only men as his apostles. Church law states that only a baptised male can be made a priest. Proponents of women's ordination say Christ was only acting according to the social norms of his time.

They cite the letters of Saint Paul, some of the earliest texts of Christianity, to show that women played important roles in the early church.

Attempts to ordain women priests are highly unusual. But the archbishop of St Louis earlier this year declared three women excommunicated after an ordination ceremony in his diocese.

Excommunication is usually "ferendae sententiae", imposed as punishment.
But some offences, including heresy, schism, and laying violent hands on the Pope, are considered so disruptive of ecclesiastical life that they trigger automatic excommunication, or "latae sententiae".

The decree says that women priests and the bishops who ordain them would be excommunicated "latae sententiae".

© 2008 ireland.com

How is it that the monstrosity that is the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such flagarant abuse of womens rights?

People are "up in arms" about how the likes of Saudi Arabia treat women, if a company were to declare a policy forbidding women in senior management positions they'd be eaten alive, yet the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such behaviour.

How are they allowed to remain on this untouchable pedestal we seem to have placed them upon... the mind boggles.

The Real B-man

Mena wrote: »

This may have been (?) more appropriate for the Christianity forum however I feel more comfortable here, feel free to move if required.

Source: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0529/breaking107.htm
How is it that the monstrosity that is the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such flagarant abuse of womens rights?

People are "up in arms" about how the likes of Saudi Arabia treat women, if a company were to declare a policy forbidding women in senior management positions they'd be eaten alive, yet the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such behaviour.

How are they allowed to remain on this untouchable pedestal we seem to have placed them upon... the mind boggles.

Traditions in other religious cultures are respected for thousands of years why does the catholic church have to be any different? 2000 years inst going to change it either.

Rev Hellfire

If you don't like the rules of the club don't join. Simple as.

robindch

Mena wrote: »

How is it that the monstrosity that is the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such flagrant abuse of womens rights?

Because people let them? But more seriously, I've never quite understood why somebody would want a job as a cheer-leader in an organization that officially rejects what the cheer-leader is. And that applies to gay priests just as much as it applies to women priests. Seems to suggest that the baleful extra ecclesiam nulla salus appeals more than the cognitive dissonance it causes.

BTW, the difference between the "ferendae sententiae" and "latae sententiae" is quite interesting. The ferendae needs a court sitting and a formal judgment to be made -- an expensive process which gives unnecessary airtime to the heresy and the heretic. While the latae can simply be declared by the church claiming that the "act itself" excommunicated the heretic -- rather in the manner of Pilate washing his hands -- it's the religious equivalent of a death sentence, but without trial, jury or judge.

Mena

Thanks Robin, that was interesting.

As to The Real B Man. just because it's "tradition" it should be allowed? I don't buy that argument.

It all seems very hypocritical to me.

Dades

Could be interesting for those who want to get off the Catholic registry.

Just ordain some women priests - no boring correspondence or pep talks - instant excommunication!

Beruthiel

You would think the fact that hardly anyone is joining up to be a priest these days, that they would be happy to take anyone on.

pH

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If you don't like the rules of the club don't join. Simple as.

So you're in favour of men only golf clubs and rooms to let with signs up saying "No Blacks, Irish or dogs"?

Because people let them? But more seriously, I've never quite understood why somebody would want a job as a cheer-leader in an organization that officially rejects what the cheer-leader is.

I guess they like the rest of the belief system but reject the bit about women/homosexuals as being 'wrong'. It's not as if there aren't other options, religions whose beliefs are very similar but allow women. Yet some people explicitly want to be a female catholic priest, when the ban on female priests is one of the few differentiators between Catholicism and another religion that would be happy to have them join as a female preacher.

I can't understand that thinking myself, except to say that deep down people pretty much know that it's all rubbish, and that rules are malleable over time and none of it is "God given".

the_syco

Beruthiel wrote: »

You would think the fact that hardly anyone is joining up to be a priest these days, that they would be happy to take anyone on.

They're importing them by the dozen from Africa. Seriously. Loads of preists over there.

If they wish to keep traditions, that's cool, but don't they not allow mass to be said in Latin. Pretty sure that's a tradition?

Doctor DooM

Mena wrote: »

This may have been (?) more appropriate for the Christianity forum however I feel more comfortable here, feel free to move if required.

Source: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0529/breaking107.htm
How is it that the monstrosity that is the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such flagarant abuse of womens rights?

People are "up in arms" about how the likes of Saudi Arabia treat women, if a company were to declare a policy forbidding women in senior management positions they'd be eaten alive, yet the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such behaviour.

How are they allowed to remain on this untouchable pedestal we seem to have placed them upon... the mind boggles.

This kind of statements not really anything new for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. They used to be the inquisition, you know

In answer to your question... I don't let them remain on their pedestal. They get no money from me, and no respect. I don't respect their rules and I basically disregard the Roman Catholic church. The only control a church has is theological in Ireland(technically), and if you deny them that they have nothing.

Even in the Christianity forum, you will find plenty of people who are not their biggest fans.

RayMc

What happens to the men who ordain women priests?

Mena

SDooM wrote: »

This kind of statements not really anything new for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. They used to be the inquisition, you know

In answer to your question... I don't let them remain on their pedestal. They get no money from me, and no respect. I don't respect their rules and I basically disregard the Roman Catholic church. The only control a church has is theological in Ireland(technically), and if you deny them that they have nothing.

Even in the Christianity forum, you will find plenty of people who are not their biggest fans.

It was a collective "we" but yeah :pac:

RayMc wrote: »

What happens to the men who ordain women priests?

Ex-communication

The Real B-man

Mena wrote: »

Thanks Robin, that was interesting.

As to The Real B Man. just because it's "tradition" it should be allowed? I don't buy that argument.

It all seems very hypocritical to me.

Maybe it is but some things you have to accept with religions they don't change much and millions of followers respect that too. other wise they wouldn't be followers of there particular religion.

Zillah

This is awesome.


Seriously. I am so glad they did this. They just massively increased the speed of their decline.

Doctor DooM

Zillah wrote: »

This is awesome.


Seriously. I am so glad they did this. They just massively increased the speed of their decline.

It does seem rather self destructive. Do you reckon this is media exaggeration, or..?

The_Minister

Beruthiel wrote: »

You would think the fact that hardly anyone is joining up to be a priest these days, that they would be happy to take anyone on.

I was talking to someone who knows more about this than I do. Apparently Paul (I think) said something about women not being allowed give the sacrement, and since Catholics put alot of emphasis on the sacrement, they have to obey this pretty strictly...

....or something like that.

Pompey Magnus

The_Minister wrote: »

I was talking to someone who knows more about this than I do. Apparently Paul (I think) said something about women not being allowed give the sacrement, and since Catholics put alot of emphasis on the sacrement, they have to obey this pretty strictly...

....or something like that.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the passage by Paul regarding women clergy is regarded as being a later insertion to the letter (2 Timothy?), it wasn't in the original letter. I also think there are serious doubts that St Paul even wrote the letter at all. In one of his earlier letters he mentions a female member of the clergy without any problems.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mena wrote: »

People are "up in arms" about how the likes of Saudi Arabia treat women, if a company were to declare a policy forbidding women in senior management positions they'd be eaten alive, yet the Catholic church is allowed to get away with such behaviour.

How are they allowed to remain on this untouchable pedestal we seem to have placed them upon... the mind boggles.

People are "up in arms" about Saudi Arabia treatment of women for *very* different reasons.

It's a religion, comparing it to senior management positions is ludicrous. Would you expect the church to wed homosexual couples?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Surely Christianity would be better for this thread, the guys & gals over there might have a better understanding as to the reason for the ban from a theological perspective.

Doctor DooM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Surely Christianity would be better for this thread, the guys & gals over there might have a better understanding as to the reason for the ban from a theological perspective.

Good point. We're all just going to back pat each other over how silly it is. (Which it is!)

An Fear Aniar

All of us who have read the Da Vinci code know the real reason for all this. It's not safe to say it here.... I saw an albino priest outside my window this morning.



.

Pompey Magnus

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

All of us who have read the Da Vinci code know the real reason for all this. It's not safe to say it here.... I saw an albino priest outside my window this morning.



.

I hope you thanked him, what with it being Thank a Priest day today.

robindch

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Surely Christianity would be better for this thread, the guys & gals over there might have a better understanding as to the reason for the ban from a theological perspective.

The Vatican prohibits women priests, because none of Jesus' disciples was female (though none of them seem to have been priests either).

The Vatican's prohibition seems peculiar, since it lets lots of other non-disciple-type people become priests. These include Irish people, Africans, Asians, Americans, people who are alive today, people who enjoy macdonalds, people who wear trousers, people without beards, and a thousand other categories that the bible is silent upon.

Alternatively, one could indulge in the more cynical view that women simply don't have the balls for the job.

aidan24326

I'd go with what Beruthiel said. In an age of rapidly-declining priest numbers it's strange that they wouldn't embrace the opportunity to double the target market, so to speak.

This steadfast resistance to change will be their downfall, and good riddance.

Doctor DooM

robindch wrote: »

The Vatican prohibits women priests, because none of Jesus' disciples was female (though none of them seem to have been priests either).

The Vatican's prohibition seems peculiar, since it lets lots of other non-disciple-type people become priests. These include Irish people, Africans, Asians, Americans, people who are alive today, people who enjoy macdonalds, people who wear trousers, people without beards, and a thousand other categories that the bible is silent upon.

Alternatively, one could indulge in the more cynical view that women simply don't have the balls for the job.

Are you saying being a priest is a load of b@$%*x?

There will sadly always be oor countries for the RC church to import from.

remarkable12

no women need to know their place...cooking and cleaning..and washing feet...not teaching

Dave!

Another PR coup for the Catholic Church.....

Zillah

remarkable12 wrote: »

no women need to know their place...cooking and cleaning..and washing feet...not teaching

Great first post dude.

Rev Hellfire

pH wrote: »

So you're in favour of men only golf clubs and rooms to let with signs up saying "No Blacks, Irish or dogs"?

I'm totally in favour of men only clubs be they golf clubs or what ever, just as I have no issue with women only clubs such as gyms. If the local cat club doesn't want dogs so be it.

If the RC decides they don't want women priests and feel compelled to eject those who break their rules so be it, there are plenty of other Christian faiths which will accommodate them.

pH

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm totally in favour of men only clubs be they golf clubs or what ever, just as I have no issue with women only clubs such as gyms. If the local cat club doesn't want dogs so be it.

And what about "Straight Only" clubs or "No Poles or blacks" gyms?

Pompey Magnus

pH wrote: »

And what about "Straight Only" clubs or "No Poles or blacks" gyms?

Well as he is a Christian I assume he is in favour of "Straight Only" clubs, he is a member of one such club after all .

gramlab

They seriously need to think about changing their PR advisers.

iUseVi

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm totally in favour of men only clubs be they golf clubs or what ever, just as I have no issue with women only clubs such as gyms. If the local cat club doesn't want dogs so be it.

If the RC decides they don't want women priests and feel compelled to eject those who break their rules so be it, there are plenty of other Christian faiths which will accommodate them.

All well and good, but these people might well think that the RC is the only proper church....blah blah blah...you can't just get away with a "move along, now".

Rev Hellfire

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Well as he is a Christian I assume he is in favour of "Straight Only" clubs, he is a member of one such club after all .

Your assumption that I'm a Christian is a little of the mark.
The way I look at it is it’s a private club they are free to put whatever restrictions they want on it, it's not exactly like there's a shortage of Christian sects to choose from. As for the straights, poles only and even no cripples I'd have no objections what so ever provided I’m not asked to fund it.

Tbh it all seems a little artificial, like a meateater going to a vegetarian restaurant and complaining there are getting discriminated at because they can’t get their blue steak.
Everyone and their mother knows the catholic church is opposed to women priests, you want to be priest then pick a different sect.

Rev Hellfire

iUseVi wrote: »

All well and good, but these people might well think that the RC is the only proper church....blah blah blah...you can't just get away with a "move along, now".

Why ?

DublinWriter

Mena wrote: »

How are they allowed to remain on this untouchable pedestal we seem to have placed them upon... the mind boggles.

Ironic, considering that the Catholic Church has had at least one female Pope in it's history.

Anyways, we're on page 3 of the thread by now, so the argument has probably descended into the usual personalised internet-style squabble-fest.

iUseVi

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Why ?

tbh I don't really give two hoots, but to these people I'm sure the CC means something. They can't just "switch" to another denomination or religion just like that. (Or at least I imagine that they can not, they are all the same level of madness to me, I wouldn't want to play favourites...:p)