Good Stuff

Steyr

Historic Agreement In Dublin Today!

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91211-1317421,00.html

Well done to all concerned!:)

Manic Moran

Before stating approval/disapproval, I'm curious to read the fine print.

The BBC website says that yes, the UK will withdraw the two types of cluster munition in current service, but that future submunition systems will still be possible.

NTM

Grizzly 45

Guess thats all military shotguns banned as well then...As the shotgun is the only other weapon that launches a swarm of sub missiles from one container.:(

concussion

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Guess thats all military shotguns banned as well then...As the shotgun is the only other weapon that launches a swarm of sub missiles from one container.:(

No its not...what about claymore anti-pers mines, artillery canister and 40mm air-defence rounds?

shakin

surely a hand gun can be indiscriminate? i.e. it isnt gauranteed to go to its intended target every time?

would the irish army have any of these in supply,ever?

Fratton Fred

Manic Moran wrote: »

Before stating approval/disapproval, I'm curious to read the fine print.

The BBC website says that yes, the UK will withdraw the two types of cluster munition in current service, but that future submunition systems will still be possible.

NTM

I guess that means they have just spent a load of money developing a new cluster bomb. A replacement for the JP233 perhaps?

concussion

shakin wrote: »

surely a hand gun can be indiscriminate? i.e. it isnt gauranteed to go to its intended target every time?

True, but when a hand grenade doesn't go off the person throwing it will know , plus the area's where infantry have had a fire-fight are generally policed up by rear echelons, ensuring there's no weapons, ammo, blinds etc left behind. The big thing with cluster munitions is where they're used. For example, a truck convoy behind the lines is attacked - the pilot can't be certain all the sub-munitions have exploded and they can be scattered well off the roads into fields etc. There's a very good chance that a clearance team won't find them.

concussion

http://www.clustermunitionsdublin.ie/documents.asp

Draft convention

http://www.clustermunitionsdublin.ie/pdf/SecretariatsBlankRollingText28MayRev1_000.pdf

ojewriej

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Guess thats all military shotguns banned as well then...As the shotgun is the only other weapon that launches a swarm of sub missiles from one container.:(

Aren't shotguns banned already in the Geneva Convention? (for military use)

Manic Moran

No.

NTM

Manic Moran

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I guess that means they have just spent a load of money developing a new cluster bomb. A replacement for the JP233 perhaps?

Well, after reading that draft document, I'm not so worried.

JP233 is a bit unusual in that it's not a cluster bomb per se, but does fit into the covered category. As a reusable dispenser, they would just need to build new munitions with destruct features.

BL755 is going to have to go out of service, which isn't an issue as they were on the way out anyway.

Mk261s, fired from Apaches, don't count as they are too small.

Mk85 artillery rounds don't count as they are not air-delivered, and have self-destruct features.

In the future, SADARM and BAT type munitions are also excluded because each submunition is guided.

Overall, Brown's move seems to be good PR, doesn't seem to affect the British military much.

NTM

ojewriej

Manic Moran wrote: »

No.

NTM

You are right, it's actually a Hague Convention that has an article which acn be interpreted this way:

Section II of the 1907 Hague Convention (the Geneva Convention’s predecessor treaty), forbade belligerents to employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.

concussion

Manic Moran wrote: »

Mk85 artillery rounds don't count as they are not air-delivered, and have self-destruct features.

Where does it say that it has to be air-delivered? I don't see it in the text.

ojewriej wrote: »

Aren't shotguns banned already in the Geneva Convention? (for military use)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Guess thats all military shotguns banned as well then...As the shotgun is the only other weapon that launches a swarm of sub missiles from one container.:(

Shotguns are lawful in combat.

Manic Moran

concussion wrote: »

Where does it say that it has to be air-delivered? I don't see it in the text.

Fair point. I misunderstood 'mutatis mutandis' in Para 2.

Either way M85s are still exempt due to their self-destruct capability.

NTM

Fratton Fred

Manic Moran wrote: »

Fair point. I misunderstood 'mutatis mutandis' in Para 2.

Either way M85s are still exempt due to their self-destruct capability.

NTM

latin for kind of "Where Applicable" although there is no direct translation.

Manic Moran

After having read the fine print over again, I think it goes a bit too far.

The list of exceptions requires a bunch of "Has this, AND has this, AND has this..."

I've little problem with mandating something like self-destruct fuzes, as dud rates on impact in soft terrain can be very high, but I think they're forgetting that the objective of munitions is to kill/incapacitate as many people as efficiently as possible, and cluster-type munitions are very good at it.

I mean, if they really want to return to carpet bombing with each airplane dropping a dozen Mk82 bombs to cover the same area, fine, but I don't think they should be complaining when the process also demolishes half a city block whereas DPICM would just scar asphalt and make a few holes in roofs and windows. This is what's going to happen, because the militaries are still going to have area targets to kill, and if they can't use a few scatterable munitions to do it, they'll just use lots of bigger ones, with the expected results.

NTM

concussion

Manic Moran wrote: »

they'll just use lots of bigger ones, with the expected results.

But at least when a 500lb bomb fails to go off it's easily noticable. However, once a few kids get killed jumping on dud 500lb bombs there'll be a ban on them also :rolleyes: