Epistle of James - Works vs Faith

TravelJunkie

I'm a firm believer in Paul's message of faith as described in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews.
I came across the epistle of James and found how contradictory it is. In a prologue of a Greek contemporary bible it states that James (son of Mary) and Paul had some differences but that there is harmony in their messages (according to other manuscripts not included in bible which I don't know what they are). What is the harmony? It said James took a more practical approach in his ministry but when I read James, it just seems contradicting everything Paul preached.

Any insights?

kelly1

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I'm a firm believer in Paul's message of faith as described in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews.
I came across the epistle of James and found how contradictory it is. In a prologue of a Greek contemporary bible it states that James (son of Mary) and Paul had some differences but that there is harmony in their messages (according to other manuscripts not included in bible which I don't know what they are). What is the harmony? It said James took a more practical approach in his ministry but when I read James, it just seems contradicting everything Paul preached.

Any insights?

Hmm, I've been down this painful road before with Soul Winner and others. Paul says we are saved by faith, not "faith alone". And indeed we are saved by faith but faith alone isn't enough. Good works demonstrate true faith and show that we are willing to walk the and walk and not just talk the talk. Faith without works is dead. Paul and James are both correct. We aren't saved by works but lack of works shows contempt for God's commandments (love thy neighbour) and prevents God's grace coming into our souls. I don't think there is any contradiction. The good Samarithan illustrates the need for good works.

Some will argue that good works automatically come with faith but I tend to disagree. Effort is needed on our part to put our faith into practice. We can't just sit on our laurels and presume to be saved.

That's my 2c anyway.

God bless,
Noel.

TravelJunkie

Paul talks about walking in the Spirit - and how the fruits of this are love, patience, etc etc (all the good works)

But say there is a 'lack of works' or at least lack of some of the works does it mean we are not walking in the spirit (and that is why) or because we are not doing a good job (that we haven't tried enough)

Maybe there is a grey area, that's what I'm thinking.

kelly1

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Paul talks about walking in the Spirit - and how the fruits of this are love, patience, etc etc (all the good works)

But say there is a 'lack of works' or at least lack of some of the works does it mean we are not walking in the spirit (and that is why) or because we are not doing a good job (that we haven't tried enough)

Maybe there is a grey area, that's what I'm thinking.

It's a tricky one. It's impossible to please God unless we do His will and it's difficult to do His will unless we are guided by the Spirit. So I suppose the key is to co-operate with God's grace (which does take effort on our part, not automatic IMO).

TravelJunkie

Ok, I'm understanding you here.

So, in order to best encourage doing God's will would I, a) pray for more of his guidance and at the same time exercise discipline in reading more bible, more quality time with God (so to be more in spirit) and being generally aware of him when it comes to day to day stuff.

Or b) would I need to go out of my way to do good works like visit the sick, be more charitable, make myself helpful, provide encouragement, etc

kelly1

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Ok, I'm understanding you here.

So, in order to best encourage doing God's will would I, a) pray for more of his guidance and at the same time exercise discipline in reading more bible, more quality time with God (so to be more in spirit) and being generally aware of him when it comes to day to day stuff.

Or b) would I need to go out of my way to do good works like visit the sick, be more charitable, make myself helpful, provide encouragement, etc

I would say a) and b) and in that order. Prayer should preceed works. You'll notice that Jesus prayed before taking on difficult tasks e.g 40 days in the desert before starting His ministry and praying in the garden of Gethsamane.

BrianCalgary

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Ok, I'm understanding you here.

So, in order to best encourage doing God's will would I, a) pray for more of his guidance and at the same time exercise discipline in reading more bible, more quality time with God (so to be more in spirit) and being generally aware of him when it comes to day to day stuff.

Or b) would I need to go out of my way to do good works like visit the sick, be more charitable, make myself helpful, provide encouragement, etc

a) Is the first priority. b) will flow from a).

If you go out of the way to do b0 you may miss out on what it is God really wants you to do.

In the account of Mary and Martha, Martha was too busy doing things that she missed spending time with Christ when He was there. She did b) and not a), Jesus admonished her.

Balance is necessary. Spend time with God and then you'll find out the mission He has laid out for you, then do it.

Soul Winner

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I'm a firm believer in Paul's message of faith as described in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews.
I came across the epistle of James and found how contradictory it is. In a prologue of a Greek contemporary bible it states that James (son of Mary) and Paul had some differences but that there is harmony in their messages (according to other manuscripts not included in bible which I don't know what they are). What is the harmony? It said James took a more practical approach in his ministry but when I read James, it just seems contradicting everything Paul preached.

Any insights?

Good discussions here and here on the subject. Worth a read.

sorella

Go back to Jesus and to what He teaches about how to live our life in His love... " If you love Me, you will obey My commandments.. to love God and to love your neighbour.." and He is very clear on detail; feed the hungry, clothe the naked for then you do it to Me"

We sell our jams and crafts at market stalls, and because we wear the Habit, we do get "targetted" especially by the "born-again" evangelists who come in from the North in the summer. Some of these encounters are draining, as they tend to write off that we work to feed the poorest of the poor overseas, especially abandoned babies in India and Sri Lanka. Heartaching work....

The cry goes up, "That won't get you to heaven..."

Over the years we have learned how to deal kindly with this; it seems sometimes as if the thought is of how to heaven, how to be "saved" rather than of loving our neighbour Who is Jesus.

I cannot imagine thinking of doing anything "just" to get to heaven:) So we tell them that we never think of that, only what we can do to feed and clothe and to help others
Because our faith is not about self but about others

And we tell them that thankfully, that is not their job but God's
And thankfully, we know the gospels better than they do

And always we come back to Matthew 25.

You can tie someone up in knots with different personalities and texts; but going back to source deflates it all.

Just to do all for the sheer and utter love of Jesus; Who is all and all and all
Blessings this day; am on a rest day so enjoying reading past threads here

JimiTime

sorella wrote: »

Go back to Jesus and to what He teaches about how to live our life in His love... " If you love Me, you will obey My commandments.. to love God and to love your neighbour.." and He is very clear on detail; feed the hungry, clothe the naked for then you do it to Me"

We sell our jams and crafts at market stalls, and because we wear the Habit, we do get "targetted" especially by the "born-again" evangelists who come in from the North in the summer. Some of these encounters are draining, as they tend to write off that we work to feed the poorest of the poor overseas, especially abandoned babies in India and Sri Lanka. Heartaching work....

The cry goes up, "That won't get you to heaven..."

Over the years we have learned how to deal kindly with this; it seems sometimes as if the thought is of how to heaven, how to be "saved" rather than of loving our neighbour Who is Jesus.

I cannot imagine thinking of doing anything "just" to get to heaven:) So we tell them that we never think of that, only what we can do to feed and clothe and to help others
Because our faith is not about self but about others

And we tell them that thankfully, that is not their job but God's
And thankfully, we know the gospels better than they do

And always we come back to Matthew 25.

You can tie someone up in knots with different personalities and texts; but going back to source deflates it all.

Just to do all for the sheer and utter love of Jesus; Who is all and all and all
Blessings this day; am on a rest day so enjoying reading past threads here

I think you hit the nail on the head.

wolfsbane

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I'm a firm believer in Paul's message of faith as described in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews.
I came across the epistle of James and found how contradictory it is. In a prologue of a Greek contemporary bible it states that James (son of Mary) and Paul had some differences but that there is harmony in their messages (according to other manuscripts not included in bible which I don't know what they are). What is the harmony? It said James took a more practical approach in his ministry but when I read James, it just seems contradicting everything Paul preached.

Any insights?

I agree with Noel when he said:
Paul says we are saved by faith, not "faith alone". And indeed we are saved by faith but faith alone isn't enough. Good works demonstrate true faith and show that we are willing to walk the and walk and not just talk the talk. Faith without works is dead. Paul and James are both correct. We aren't saved by works but lack of works shows contempt for God's commandments (love thy neighbour) and prevents God's grace coming into our souls. I don't think there is any contradiction. The good Samarithan illustrates the need for good works. That is the historic Protestant position.

Confusion comes when he says:
Some will argue that good works automatically come with faith but I tend to disagree. Effort is needed on our part to put our faith into practice. We can't just sit on our laurels and presume to be saved.
When Protestants say good works automatically come with faith, they do not mean we are to be passive in our obedience to Christ. They mean rather that no true faith can occur without good works following. True Christians will do good works. Good works will characterise them. But they won't just sit back and wait for something to happen - they will delight to love their neighbour as themselves, they will actively pursue it.

The central point to Justification by Faith Alone is that one is justified soley by the righteousness of Christ, received through faith. Not by our own righteousness.

Once justified, we will do good works - for that is the nature of true faith. As James pointed out, a failure to follow through with obedience would have meant Abraham's faith was mere knowledge, not an expression of trust in God.