The Green Insanity Begins

daveconlon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7419724.stm

Looks like things are starting to kick off for the green, save the world movement.

A "personal emission target".

I think the whole thing is insane.

What are your opinions on this?

biko

I had my say in the AH thread. Can you elaborate on why this is a bad idea?

daveconlon

biko wrote: »

I had my say in the AH thread. Can you elaborate on why this is a bad idea?

Well, I don't want to be a slave to the system.

It is based on a myth, namely that global warming exists, and secondly that global warming is caused by CO2.

Also, if you have followed the history of the carbon trading schemes, you will have encountered fraud upon fraud.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2341179/1991-CoR-First-Global-Revolution-OCR-Mrkva

Read this book, the enivronmental movements origins and its reasons for existance are stated quite clearly.

Grudaire

daveconlon wrote: »

Looks like things are starting to kick off for the green, save the world movement.

You say it as if they whole not f^cking up the world idea is mad:D

Carbon credits are a joke though, as is shipping of recycling abroad, and the crushing of glass to recycle it

daveconlon

Cliste wrote: »

You say it as if they whole not f^cking up the world idea is mad:D

All proposals are based on an sound fundamental principle, before they are dragged off into the insane.

Cliste wrote: »

Carbon credits are a joke though, as is shipping of recycling abroad, and the crushing of glass to recycle it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/19/biofuels.alternativeenergy

Another Green fraud.

AngryHippie

Either way, there are too many people who consider themselves not to have enough time or (insert excuse here) for this to have any impact, Participation levels would need to be nearly total for it to have the necessary impact, the upshot of which is that smart well meaning people aren't going to be arsed with it either, which means it won't happen.
All that being said, I do believe in climate change, I do believe it has been affected by human activity, I do believe that western lifestyles and standards of living are totally unsustainable without cheap renewable energy sources, I do not believe they are going to be discovered and provided on time, I do not believe that humans are going to change their behaviour or breeding patterns, which is going to lead to a decline in the species, It is an extremely short-sighted arrogant point of view to believe that our current activities can continue unabated even though we have little to no understanding of the global inter-dependece of species on atmospheric gases water temperatures etc, I'm not suggesting for a moment that man could wipe out life on earth, But we could make a fair swipe at destroying the environment that we need to sustain ourselves and our offspring, and that is what is happening, Meanwhile the distractions of modern life are just sufficient to keep everyone looking around thinking how wonderful it all is, Its never going to be to late for everyone, but it could be too late for millions of the most vulnerable on our planet, and making excuses for it is what laid the tracks to Aushwitz and Belsen, It is happening knowingly, their are warnings about food reserves on every medium at this stage, still we spend more time and money squandering the resources needed to cope with the problems we are going to face. Government action will come to late.

daveconlon

AngryHippie wrote: »

Participation levels would need to be nearly total for it to have the necessary impact, the upshot of which is that smart well meaning people aren't going to be arsed with it either, which means it won't happen. ,.

Participation levels will be total. There was not always an income tax, however "participation" is now total, think about that. "Laws" are enforced by the boys in blue.

This is going to happen unless a revolt occurs.

AngryHippie wrote: »

I do not believe that humans are going to change their behaviour or breeding patterns,.

Populations in the developed world would be dropping like stones were it not for immigration.

molloyjh

Global Warming is not a myth at all, its a well established fact. The Earth has always undergone cooling and warming periods and it is widely recognised that we are currently in a warming period, and have been for about 150 years.

Anthropogenic Global Warming, i.e. global warming being caused by man, is what you are thinking about. Again, this is not a myth. It is in fact a theory, neither proven nor disproven. We have no way of proving the theory one way or another given what would be required in proving it - controlled global climate experiments. On top of that we don't know enough about other factors such as cosmic rays etc. So while there are theories about cosmic rays causing global warming too, we have no real way of knowing if this is true.

Basically there are several theories out there as to why we are going through this warming period, none of which have been proven, and its highly doubtful we'll ever have the ability to prove any of them. The majority of scientists are behind the man-made theory, and given the risks I think I'd rather be the "slave to the system" and play it safe. Not to mention the fact that the likes of fossil fuels are a limited energy source anyway and it only makes sense to push for renewable energy sources in the long run.

djpbarry

daveconlon wrote: »

Looks like things are starting to kick off for the green, save the world movement.

You've only just discovered environmentalism this afternoon? You are aware that the Green Party are in power in this country, aren't you?

daveconlon wrote: »

A "personal emission target".

I think the whole thing is insane.

Why? I think it's a good idea in theory; I don't think it's practical though and I doubt it will come to fruition. Offering people an incentive (i.e. cash) to reduce their energy consumption would be a positive step in my view.

daveconlon wrote: »

Well, I don't want to be a slave to the system.

What system?

daveconlon wrote: »

It is based on a myth, namely that global warming exists...

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, you don't think the Earth is getting warmer?

daveconlon wrote: »

...and secondly that global warming is caused by CO2.

So what is causing the Earth to warm up (as indicated in the link I provided)?

daveconlon wrote: »

Also, if you have followed the history of the carbon trading schemes, you will have encountered fraud upon fraud.

Care to provide an example? Fraud occurs in various different industries on a fairly regular basis; should we scrap all of the industries concerned so we don't have to work to prevent fraud?

daveconlon wrote: »

Read this book, the enivronmental movements origins and its reasons for existance are stated quite clearly.

I don't have time to trawl through your book; if you have a point to make then make it. I would have thought the environmental movement's (I didn't realise there was only one) reasons for existence would be fairly self-explanatory.

daveconlon wrote: »

All proposals are based on an sound fundamental principle, before they are dragged off into the insane.

Which proposals are these? And what principles are you referring to?

daveconlon wrote: »

Another Green fraud.

What do you mean, "another"? That's the first example you've provided.

Besides, the scam has been uncovered, people have been made aware of it and it seems likely that the practice will be curtailed. Surely this is a good thing, no?

daveconlon

molloyjh wrote: »

Global Warming is not a myth at all, its a well established fact. The Earth has always undergone cooling and warming periods and it is widely recognised that we are currently in a warming period, and have been for about 150 years.

Anthropogenic Global Warming, i.e. global warming being caused by man, is what you are thinking about. .

I am well aware of this, as for nautral warming and cooling. This was previously taught in school, but we know how the eductaion system jas been debased.

molloyjh wrote: »

Again, this is not a myth. It is in fact a theory, neither proven nor disproven. We have no way of proving the theory one way or another given what would be required in proving it - controlled global climate experiments. On top of that we don't know enough about other factors such as cosmic rays etc. So while there are theories about cosmic rays causing global warming too, we have no real way of knowing if this is true.

The majority of scientists are behind the man-made theory, and given the risks I think I'd rather be the "slave to the system" and play it safe. Not to mention the fact that the likes of fossil fuels are a limited energy source anyway and it only makes sense to push for renewable energy sources in the long run.

All scientists are paid by government, therefore they have to go with the flow.

And there is no conclusive proof of warming.

djpbarry

molloyjh wrote: »

Basically there are several theories out there as to why we are going through this warming period, none of which have been proven, and its highly doubtful we'll ever have the ability to prove any of them.

It is absolutely 100% impossible to prove anything beyond all doubt; all one can do is consider the weight of evidence in favour of a particular hypothesis. Now, considering the weight of evidence for the various theories on global warming (there aren't that many) at present, AGW wins hands-down.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

all scientists are paid by the government?
wtf?

daveconlon

DJP, I was counting down the seconds until you were on the scene.

Be careful and watch out for global warming threads in other sections of the forum (e.g. afterhours). No doubt you will get a slap on the wrist for missing that one.

Where do they advertise jobs like yours?

daveconlon

Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »

all scientists are paid by the government?
wtf?

Correct. Do the research.

daveconlon

djpbarry wrote: »

Why? I think it's a good idea in theory; I don't think it's practical though and I doubt it will come to fruition. Offering people an incentive (i.e. cash) to reduce their energy consumption would be a positive step in my view.?

It will, as for incentive. Catch yourself on.

djpbarry wrote: »

What system?

The economic system, you know that thing that dominates everyones lives.

djpbarry wrote: »

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, you don't think the Earth is getting warmer?

Propaganda

molloyjh

daveconlon wrote: »

All scientists are paid by government, therefore they have to go with the flow.

Thats nonsense and if you had any idea what you were waffling about you'd know it. Scientists are paid by numerous entities. Some are paid by Government, some by private companies. Some scientists are paid and funded by semi-state colleges and univiersities and many are paid by private universities. There are even people out there who do this research for free.

daveconlon wrote: »

I am well aware of this, as for nautral warming and cooling.

followed by:

daveconlon wrote: »

And there is no conclusive proof of warming.

You're contradicting yourself, or at best being very unclear about what you're trying to say. Either way my points stand. Global Warming is not a myth and neither is Anthropogenic Global Warming.

molloyjh

daveconlon wrote: »

Propaganda

Well thats handy isn't it....anything that doesn't fit your view of reality is all just propaganda eh. And its being peddled by the scientists and politicians that are out to create a global conspiracy to fool us all. Keep up your search for answers Dave, the truth is out there.

Caoimhín

molloyjh wrote: »

Global Warming is not a myth and neither is Anthropogenic Global Warming.

True, but did human activity cause it? and if so, can human activity reverse it?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropogenic

molloyjh

caoibhin wrote: »

True, but did human activity cause it? and if so, can human activity reverse it?

As I said above we don't really know one way or another if we caused it or not. And I would be very much against us trying to do anything to "fix" it given that we really don't know anywhere near enough about the environment and the climate to be able to successfully fix any of it.

Grudaire

caoibhin wrote: »

True, but did human activity cause it? and if so, can human activity reverse it?

Reverse it!?

Thinks back to the episode of the Simpsons where the lizards are killing the birds, so they bring in more and more preditors with the plan that they will eventually die off in winter:D

Stopping actively causing it would be enough imo

djpbarry

daveconlon wrote: »

DJP, I was counting down the seconds until you were on the scene.

Ah Casey; we meet again.

daveconlon wrote: »

Where do they advertise jobs like yours?

<looks at own sig>

daveconlon wrote: »

It will, as for incentive. Catch yourself on.

Oh it will, will it? Just like that because you say so? Terrific argument.

As for my use of the term “incentive”; I am merely referring to the article that you linked to. I’m not sure why it is necessary to “catch myself on”? Did I misinterpret what the BBC was reporting? Or let me guess; the so-called incentive is just being offered in order to lull us all into a false sense of security. Then once the personal carbon credit system is up and running, BAM – the old mind-control kicks in! Am I close?

daveconlon wrote: »

The economic system, you know that thing that dominates everyones lives.

I’m not sure how the economy dominates anyone’s life. I’m not even sure that statement makes sense. If you’re not happy with how the economy functions in Ireland, you could always go elsewhere.

daveconlon wrote: »

Propaganda

Oh well that’s convenient, isn’t it? Any information I present that counters your argument is dismissed as propaganda.

daveconlon wrote: »

Correct. Do the research.

Not much research is necessary to show that your statement is absolute nonsense. Take the UK for example; in 2006, just 11% of research & development was directly funded by the government. Even taking into consideration semi-state higher education councils and research councils, government funding was involved in less than one third of all R&D in the UK that year (source). If anything, the level of R&D funding provided by the British government, when expressed as a percentage of total R&D funding in the UK, is actually declining year-on-year. The British government provided (in real terms) approximately the same level of funding for R&D in 2006 as it did in 1996. However, funding from the private sector increased by just under 58% over the same 10-year period. I would expect to see similar trends in other countries, particularly in the US; the world leader when it comes to R&D funding.

To put it simply, your assertion that all scientists are paid by governments is utter bollocks.

Húrin

Conlon is an obvious troll. I'm happy that the UK is publicly considering carbon rationing.

Caoimhín

Húrin wrote: »

Conlon is an obvious troll. I'm happy that the UK is publicly considering carbon rationing.

A troll because you disagree with him?

molloyjh

caoibhin wrote: »

A troll because you disagree with him?

I don't think its anything to do with the opinion presented, but rather the way in which it is. The "slave to the system", "all scientists are paid by the government" and "propaganda" lines all suggest he is a troll out to wind people up. Either that or very, very poorly educated!

AngryHippie

caoibhin wrote: »

A troll because you disagree with him?

Not really a troll because everyone disagrees with him, a troll because it is the latest incarnation of casey, Who for some reason likes to believe that the world is out to get him, and anyone else who is prepared to criticize the system, Unfortunately, casey never contributes any original thinking or scientific fact to the boards, and instead spends his time posting nonsense and false conclusions, only to get the same rationale from anyone who can draw conclusions from facts and figures. A bit of a CT fan, the bould casey is dogged and Wiley, But unfortunately for him, the Mods are having none of it and close the net pretty quick, thank fcuk. Go mods.

Even in the unlikely event that casey is ever right about something, It'll be a random shot in the dark, that turns out to be ironically true rather than a logical conclusion.

Waxing the Gaza

Cliste wrote: »

Reverse it!?

Thinks back to the episode of the Simpsons where the lizards are killing the birds, so they bring in more and more preditors with the plan that they will eventually die off in winter:D

Stopping actively causing it would be enough imo

Thats a very interesting example (trust the simpsons!!) Im all for being green but unfortunately i don't think Global Warming cant be turned on and off like a tap, although those fancy computer models they show u on tv make it look like that!!.....basically my point is that there's an almost infinite amount of variables to consider so I believe that any predictions of future weather conditions should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

My own view is that life goes on and adapts regardless of the conditions.....

Caoimhín

Waxing the Gaza wrote: »

Thats a very interesting example (trust the simpsons!!) Im all for being green but unfortunately i don't think Global Warming cant be turned on and off like a tap, although those fancy computer models they show u on tv make it look like that!!.....basically my point is that there's an almost infinite amount of variables to consider so I believe that any predictions of future weather conditions should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

My own view is that life goes on and adapts regardless of the conditions.....

Yes, and the idea of being taxed in a futile attempt to reverse a climatic phenomena that may or may not have been caused by people just seems mad to me.

RedPlanet

Waxing the Gaza wrote: »

My own view is that life goes on and adapts regardless of the conditions.....

Don't you really mean that some forms of life go on, like cockroaches and other invertebrates, while most of the rest face mass extinctions?

Celticfire

RedPlanet wrote: »

Don't you really mean that some forms of life go on, like cockroaches and other invertebrates, while most of the rest face mass extinctions?

99.99% of all creatures that ever inhabited this earth are already extinct.

AngryHippie

Celticfire wrote: »

99.99% of all creatures that ever inhabited this earth are already extinct.

or have evolved.



how long did it take to count them ?????

JIMSTARK

molloyjh wrote: »

. Either that or very, very poorly educated!

Please, sweetheart. This is green issues not the humour forum.

Maybe you want to look into the origins of the education system before you equate intelligence with education.

JIMSTARK

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not sure how the economy dominates anyone’s life. I’m not even sure that statement makes sense. If you’re not happy with how the economy functions in Ireland, you could always go elsewhere.

Candidate for the most stupid post I have ever seen.

So all those people on the M50 at 6AM every morning are just out for a drive.

As for moving somewhere else, you will find the same system everywhere.
Look at the middle east, they had a different culture. That did not go down too well. We are all one now, what with this one world government that will soon be here.

Húrin

caoibhin wrote: »

Yes, and the idea of being taxed in a futile attempt to reverse a climatic phenomena that may or may not have been caused by people just seems mad to me.

Those who wish to risk everything we have, and ignore the science to save a few euros today are showing a serious deficit of foresight.

Waxing the Gaza wrote: »

Thats a very interesting example (trust the simpsons!!) Im all for being green but unfortunately i don't think Global Warming cant be turned on and off like a tap, although those fancy computer models they show u on tv make it look like that!!.....basically my point is that there's an almost infinite amount of variables to consider so I believe that any predictions of future weather conditions should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

My own view is that life goes on and adapts regardless of the conditions.....

No expert thinks or claims that climate change can be switched off or reversed. However, it can be slowed down.

What if your own view is wrong? What gives you the right to sell us down the river into a catastrophe because of your faith that nothing ever changes?

Ecologist Chris Thomas and other experts predict a future where a third of all species would become extinct. Temperatures are simply changing too fast for many species to adapt and survive. They will be lost forever. Human industry is burning God’s fingerprints off the surface of the earth.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

but that's ok, because it's all part of his divine will.

JIMSTARK

Húrin wrote: »

Those who wish to risk everything we have, and ignore the science to save a few euros today are showing a serious deficit of foresight.

And you have been taken in by the propaganda show a serious deficit of critical thinking ability.

Húrin wrote: »

No expert

And we all are in awe of those in the white coats. Have you been watching CSI Miami. According to that show if we all hand over our DNA profiles crime will be eliminated.

Húrin wrote: »

Ecologist Chris Thomas and other experts predict a future where a third of all species would become extinct. Temperatures are simply changing too fast for many species to adapt and survive. They will be lost forever. Human industry is burning God’s fingerprints off the surface of the earth.

That "expert" word again. You really are a gonner.

A third of all species would become extinct, have you been watching too much Attenborough?

And by the way, the extinction of species has always occured, even before the plebs started driving cars. Were the plebs driving cars and heating their houses when the dinosaurs died out???????????????????????

Húrin wrote: »

Human industry is burning God’s fingerprints off the surface of the earth.

As for your reference to God, you need to read up on you green propaganda. God has long been off the scene.

You new diety is "Gaia", old mother earth. We are all "one" now, with one reilgion, earth worship. I mean, do you not read National Geographic?

And another thing, are you all new age. I mean can you channel, how is your karma? and are those chakras in good form these days?

djpbarry

JIMSTARK wrote: »

Candidate for the most stupid post I have ever seen.

Considering you have only been a member of this forum for a matter of days, that statement means very little.

JIMSTARK wrote: »

So all those people on the M50 at 6AM every morning are just out for a drive.

In a manner of speaking, yes.

JIMSTARK wrote: »

As for moving somewhere else, you will find the same system everywhere.

I still don't know what this "system" is that you're referring to. Regardless, to suggest that everyone's way of life is exactly the same the world over is absolute nonsense. To give just one example; I was in Houston last year and found it next to impossible to get around without a car because the population there are so utterly dependent on them. At home in Dublin, I have never owned a car and I manage just fine.

JIMSTARK wrote: »

We are all one now, what with this one world government that will soon be here.

Ah, another reader of "The World According to Casey".

Húrin

JIMSTARK wrote: »

And you have been taken in by the propaganda show a serious deficit of critical thinking ability.

But can you refute me?

And we all are in awe of those in the white coats. Have you been watching CSI Miami. According to that show if we all hand over our DNA profiles crime will be eliminated.

But can you refute me?

That "expert" word again. You really are a gonner.

A third of all species would become extinct, have you been watching too much Attenborough?

But can you refute me?

And by the way, the extinction of species has always occured, even before the plebs started driving cars. Were the plebs driving cars and heating their houses when the dinosaurs died out??

There have been five mass extinctions in earth's history. We are in the middle of the sixth one, and it has been caused by human industry. I really don't think that we have the moral right to cause mass extinctions.

As for your reference to God, you need to read up on you green propaganda. God has long been off the scene.

I don't care for propaganda. I think critically. And I really think that there is not a square inch of this planet that does not belong to God.

You new diety is "Gaia", old mother earth. We are all "one" now, with one reilgion, earth worship. I mean, do you not read National Geographic?

I have never met nor read any earth worshippers. It is a scientifically discredited and clearly false religion.

And another thing, are you all new age. I mean can you channel, how is your karma? and are those chakras in good form these days?

see above. I am certainly not new age.

JIMSTARK

Mate, you are past the point of rescue.

Settle your head, turn off the television and stop reading national geographic.

As a starting point, maybe you want to look into the origins of the green movement.

Húrin

JIMSTARK wrote: »

Mate, you are past the point of rescue.

Settle your head, turn off the television and stop reading national geographic.

As a starting point, maybe you want to look into the origins of the green movement.

It's not my job to research for your argument.

Can you refute me?

djpbarry

Húrin wrote: »

I have never met nor read any earth worshippers. It is a scientifically discredited and clearly false religion.

But Christianity is scientifically accredited?

AngryHippie

what does it mean to be green

For fecks sake, talkin about religion, If you seriously think that God or superman or batman or supergran or whoever is going to come down and lend a hand when the political systems we have built to date have got to feed and shelter over 6.8 Billion people through a unknown period of uncertain climatic change/unrest, It is happening, in far away microcosms, and is being reflected in the number of hurricanes, flash floods, droughts, and violent storms, Ireland is relatively lucky or has been but our dependence on imported foodstuffs and exotic tastes must be reduced where possible. The resources are needed elsewhere. now.

djpbarry

AngryHippie wrote: »

...the political systems we have built to date have got to feed and shelter over 6.8 Billion people through a unknown period of uncertain climatic change/unrest, It is happening, in far away microcosms, and is being reflected in the number of hurricanes, flash floods, droughts, and violent storms...

Ah, nothing that a good aul' pray can't fix...

JIMSTARK

AngryHippie wrote: »

what does it mean to be green

For fecks sake, talkin about religion, If you seriously think that God or superman or batman or supergran or whoever is going to come down and lend a hand when the political systems we have built to date have got to feed and shelter over 6.8 Billion people through a unknown period of uncertain climatic change/unrest, It is happening, in far away microcosms, and is being reflected in the number of hurricanes, flash floods, droughts, and violent storms, Ireland is relatively lucky or has been but our dependence on imported foodstuffs and exotic tastes must be reduced where possible. The resources are needed elsewhere. now.

Another goner.

As for the hurricanes, droughts and earthquakes; these are all man made. Look into the ENMOD treaty signed in 1978. This stuff could be done twenty years ago.

And whats this about food shortages. The EU have been paying farmers not to produce for the last twenty years. Does no one remember the food mountains and the dumping of food in the north sea, even as the Africans were starving, as they are now.

Look at the bigger picture, mate. This is planned chaos.

"Order out of chaos".

Húrin

djpbarry wrote: »

But Christianity is scientifically accredited?

It is not in the sense of being scientifically proven, but it is not disproven. In the sense that modern science emerged from a Christian philosophical framework (Aquinas, Descartes, Newton) it is so accredited.

AngryHippie wrote: »

what does it mean to be green

For fecks sake, talkin about religion, If you seriously think that God or superman or batman or supergran or whoever is going to come down and lend a hand when the political systems we have built to date have got to feed and shelter over 6.8 Billion people through a unknown period of uncertain climatic change/unrest, It is happening, in far away microcosms, and is being reflected in the number of hurricanes, flash floods, droughts, and violent storms, Ireland is relatively lucky or has been but our dependence on imported foodstuffs and exotic tastes must be reduced where possible. The resources are needed elsewhere. now.

Indeed, we cannot claim that God is going to rescue us when the **** hits the fan, especially since the crisis is man-made.

The west has got to stop acting like its greed is more important than everyone else's need. I think that probably our best hope is that the coming recession will be a severe one.