Direct Injection petrol engines and Euro 5

JHMEG

Anyone know of any Direct Injection petrol engines on the market now that meet Euro 5 requirements which come in next year?

I was reading an article that said that they won't meet Euro 5 because of NOx and (ironically for petrol) particulates. A quick look shows none of the VW or BMW engines currently out there are Euro 5.

E92

BMW and VAGs direct injection petrols already meet the stricter US standards. They even meet the tougher Californian standards too! So the only reason we don't have Euro 5 direct injection petrols is because they haven't bothered to sell them to us yet. Either way they're still cleaner than any diesel you can buy.

Biro

I see the new Accord has a particulate filter in the exhaust for "soot" from the diesel engine. That has the effect of increasing the CO2 output while dropping the miles per gallon. However, Honda managed to get an extra 10bhp from their new diesel, while keeping the mpg and CO2 emissions the same as the old one, despite the inclusion of this filter.
However, their efforts won't be noticed, because as E92 says, the emissions people are focusing on are CO2, rather than other more dangerous emissions.
I always wondered though, the Euro 4, Euro 5 and Euro 6 compliance - cars always seem to be coming from behind in these, where as if you look at trucks, most are Euro 5 for the last year or more, and some now are looking at Euro 6 compliance. Cars are only looking towards Euro 5 at the minute!
Edit : Sorry, I strayed from the original topic, but it's somewhat emission related, so I won't withdraw!

E92

I would hazard a guess that trucks are already using AdBlue, something that we will see on Euro 5 VAG, Merc and BMW diesels(and is part derived from p!ss and part derived from that great source of environmental friendliness, Natural Gas, a non renewable resource), but I don't know as trucks are something that I really would be talking through where the sun don't shine!

Some Euro 5 and all Euro 6 diesels won't be as economical as Euro 4 diesels either, the tougher standards will in part be achieved by reducing the efficiency of these vehicles9ironically as turbocharging and direct injection for petrol engines gets more popular, petrols will be getting more efficient and when GM and Merc release their HCCI petrol engines in the next decade, we will have petrol engines that are 40% efficient rather than the usual 30% efficiency in a petrol, and someone has to pay for using AdBlue too, and you can be sure that the manufacturers won't be paying for it!

Diesels will not be nearly as popular in the next decade as they are currently thanks to the tougher emissions standards(which will still be weaker than petrols) and the aforementioned improvements in petrol engines, which is good as I perfer petrol anyway!

alias no.9

I'm pretty sure the forthcoming 2 cylinder 900cc engine to be fitted to the fiat 500 will be direct injection and is supposed to meet Euro V and Euro VI.

E92

All future FIAT engines will meet Euro 5, so if the twin cylinder engine has direct injection then it will certainly be a Euro 5 direct injection engine.

JHMEG

OK, getting to the bottom of it now. It would appear that Direct Injection petrol engines produce heavy particulates, and for Euro 5 the limit for these engines is the same as it is for diesel.

Allowable NOx is a third of what it is for diesel.

http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l28186.htm

Interesting reading:
http://bznotes.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/soot-emissions-from-gasoline-direct-injectin-gdi-engines/

Matt Simis

E92 wrote: »

..using AdBlue, something that we will see on Euro 5 VAG, Merc and BMW diesels(and is part derived from p!ss and part derived from that great source of environmental friendliness, Natural Gas, a non renewable resource), ..

Youve quoted that before..
Adblue is made from 32.5% Urea (66% water) which itself can be derived from Natural Gas, which presumably is simply cheaper than other alternatives at the moment. It also boosts fuel economy by 5%.

Its not inextricably linked to Gas however.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

OK, getting to the bottom of it now. It would appear that Direct Injection petrol engines produce heavy particulates, and for Euro 5 the limit for these engines is the same as it is for diesel.

Allowable NOx is a third of what it is for diesel.

http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l28186.htm

Interesting reading:
http://bznotes.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/soot-emissions-from-gasoline-direct-injectin-gdi-engines/

Diesle engines are still worse, much worse in the case of Nitrous Oxide. A NOx trap will significantly reduce Nitrous Oxide emissions for direct injection petrols AFAIK.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Diesle engines are still worse, much worse in the case of Nitrous Oxide. A NOx trap will significantly reduce Nitrous Oxide emissions for direct injection petrols AFAIK.

Ya, but I can't help but feel with the DI petrol engines we now have "dirty petrol engines" as well as dirty diesel engines.

NOx doesn't cause cancer (does other bad stuff tho), but particulates do.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Ya, but I can't help but feel with the DI petrol engines we now have "dirty petrol engines" as well as dirty diesel engines.

NOx doesn't cause cancer (does other bad stuff tho), but particulates do.

The limits are still up to 3 times lower for petrols(for NOx it certainly is). I didn't know that they produced particulates though. AFAIK the PM limit for Euro 4 is 5 times lower for petrol than for diesel, with Euro 5 they'll have cleaned up diesel to petrol's level.

Dirty is relative. They're still cleaner than diesels at the end of the day, if not quite as clean as old fashioned petrols, and they can meet Californian standards, something that no diesel has been able to do.

Using ultra low sulphur will further reduce the ill effects of DI, so yes it's a problem, but not as much of a problem as diesel is and besides the problem is being virtually eliminated thanks to improvements in the technology and fuel standards.

When a direct injection engine runs in high performance mode it does in fact go back to indirect injection anyway(the real reason they offer better performance is because they have a higher compression ratio than a comparable indirect injection engine);)!

either way direct injection is the future for petrol engines, and we can expect to see more of them in coming years.

And even more advanced system is coming in 2010 when HCCI engines will replace direct injection(serious issues with refinement and engine knock at the moment though, and isn't a lot better than diesel on the non CO2 related pollution though at present); GM and Merc are developing these and VAG are "looking into it".

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Dirty is relative. They're still cleaner than diesels at the end of the day,

That's no consolation. Dirt where we had no dirt before aint good.

peasant

Particulates, those small enough to be suspended in air indefinetly, yet big enough to cause trouble (read cancer) in the human lung, are a direct result of high pressure direct injection engines.

Old style diesels didn't do particulates ...they just threw out a lot of heavy soot which found itself on the ground fairly quickly.

I'm surprised that the industry hasn't learned from this and is now repeating the excercise with petrol engines.

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

It also boosts fuel economy by 5%.

Its not inextricably linked to Gas however.

How can it boost fuel economy when it's injected into the exhaust pipe?

Matt Simis

JHMEG wrote: »

How can it boost fuel economy when it's injected into the exhaust pipe?

We state "Adblue" here as if that in itself is the entire story, Adblue is a component in SCR (Selective Cat. Reduction) engine systems, which allows tuning for emissions and fuel consumption reduction when used with the Adblue agent (as they have to be, by design). Running an SCR engine without Adblue is warned to cause performance (fuel economy) and engine degradation. Its probably also illegal as the vehicle would definately fail emissons tests.

Since particulites come up so much, here is a relevant chart, Adblue certainly appears to be the wonder drug:

http://www.inorganics.basf.com/p02/CAPortal/en_GB/portal/adblue/content/Produktgruppen/AdBlue/Anwendung/Anwendung
"The solution allows the diesel engines in commercial vehicles to be tuned for lower particulate emissions and fuel consumption. Altogether, SCR is able to reduce nitrogen oxides in exhaust emissions by 85% and particulates by 40%. Vehicles employing SCR consume up to 5% less fuel than do EURO 3 vehicles."

In laymans terms, it would appear the engine can be slightly tuned for performance by outputting a dirtier exhaust which is "caught" by the Adblue before reaching atmosphere. This is one of the ways the forced changeover to Adblue appears to have been sweetened in the trucking business as of course fuel economy = cost $avings.