DJing requires no skill...

Scubadevils

I'm sure everyone has heard this over the years from someone and of course if you do DJ, it gets on your t*ts and you of course say otherwise. There is a pretty long debate over in 'music production' on this subject which started as a thread about Peter Hook and his 'DJing' abilities but has gone into a lot more now. Its a long thread but have a scan over it... :pac:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055294843

I wonder why I even bother getting involved in these conversations as generally it is pointless trying to explain to people like this who have no interest in the first place.

Anyone else had these conversations over the years?!

DarkJager

Totally agree with you. I'm not generalising any group, but I find rock fans to be the most irritating people to have a conversation with about music. Most of them won't listen to dance because its "not real music". Wtf??? It sounds like music to me, a lot more like music than 3 hairy fellas raping overdriven guitars... Then of course, dance and its genres are often associated with drug taking & troublemakers. Some people are so narrow minded when it comes to music...

Doctor DooM

DarkJager wrote: »

Totally agree with you. I'm not generalising any group, but I find rock fans to be the most irritating people to have a conversation with about music. Most of them won't listen to dance because its "not real music". Wtf??? It sounds like music to me, a lot more like music than 3 hairy fellas raping overdriven guitars... Then of course, dance and its genres are often associated with drug taking & troublemakers. Some people are so narrow minded when it comes to music...

Hi, pot? This is kettle...

The reason alot of dance music has a bad rep is, musically, it is tripe. There's no point in saying bad dance music can't be made with less effort than traditional types of music, because it can.

EDIT(What I am saying here is right now, I am using a mac. I can make a bad dance choon in 5 minutes with no other resources. To make a bad rock song, I need to find a singer, Write a guitar line, a bass line, record them, etc.)

But then, It's really the problem of the person saying it's all crap, because you get out of music what you invest in it. There's plenty good in dance music too, if you care to look.

Hairy guitar rapist out.

DarkJager

I may have not clarified that enough, apologies. I like a lot of rock/metal music, but not that stuff that is just pure noise. There's no arguing otherwise, no melody, nothing nice about it, just guitars screaming and some guy shouting about cutting people up or some other childish sh1t! I'm open to any type of music if its well done and catches my interest. I'll listen to anything once, from Deadmau5 to Devil Driver, and then I make my opinons. The general consensus with rock fans from personal experience, is that if its not played using an instrument, then its not music.

Run_to_da_hills

I played at a Bikers wedding last weekend down the counrtry. I was specifically told NO RAVE under any circumstances, Rave is the term that bikers use for anything electronic without an electric guitar and a voice. I played a half hour set of Metallica, AC/DC, Iron Maiden, Guns N Roses, Megadeath and Ramstein. This old guy stormed up to the DJ table and shouted at me to stop playing noise and that I was the worst DJ he had ever come across. (Probably expecting me to be playing the Indians or Daniel O' Donnell) I told him what do you expect at a bikers wedding. Anyway I finished up the night up with traditional Irish music, ie The Wolf Tones, Clare Celts, Eire Og and Amhran Na Bhfiann and every one was happy.

Doctor DooM

DarkJager wrote: »

I may have not clarified that enough, apologies. I like a lot of rock/metal music, but not that stuff that is just pure noise. There's no arguing otherwise, no melody, nothing nice about it, just guitars screaming and some guy shouting about cutting people up or some other childish sh1t! I'm open to any type of music if its well done and catches my interest. I'll listen to anything once, from Deadmau5 to Devil Driver, and then I make my opinons. The general consensus with rock fans from personal experience, is that if its not played using an instrument, then its not music.

My standard reply to that is is say the standard Rock person is no longer allowed to listen to NiN, Ptichshifter, Prodigy, Ministry etc if thats the case...


Music without skill is always a bit crappy. Doesn't matter if it's rock or electro- stuff.

Run_to_da_hills

The skill is involved in selecting tracks whether it is rock or "rave". A good DJ will know the timing when to play a particular track, how to lead it in. He will know if the floor is becoming empty he must start choosing tracks to get them back out dancing again. A bad DJ will just simply crash one track after another and mix slow stuff up with fast stuff. A good Vinyl DJ should play a seemless set.

DJ_Spider

I must admit I am a crud DJ! I use MP3s, and don't cue them or manually mix them. Well sometimes I do, and I use mixes that I make at home, so I can get them right. But I never mix 'live' When I worked in the UK, we were told we HAD to beatmatch. I think most people don;t really care if they are at a birthday or wedding. Beatmatching is only really for clubs.

I play all the cheesy chart stuff, some r&b, and the oldies. I like all kinds of music from ABBA, to ZZ Top, including along the way, Marilyn Manson, Green Day, and Queen. The only kind of music I can;t really stand is most r&b, and country & western. Oh and West Friggin Life!

But I always play what the crowd want, and if they drift off the dancefloor I just change the genre. Plus the old favourites like amarillo, macarena, timewarp, always get them up!

Just my opinion, which is like bumholes, everyone has one!

Doctor DooM

DJ_Spider wrote: »

I must admit I am a crud DJ! I use MP3s, and don't cue them or manually mix them. Well sometimes I do, and I use mixes that I make at home, so I can get them right. But I never mix 'live' When I worked in the UK, we were told we HAD to beatmatch. I think most people don;t really care if they are at a birthday or wedding. Beatmatching is only really for clubs.

I play all the cheesy chart stuff, some r&b, and the oldies. I like all kinds of music from ABBA, to ZZ Top, including along the way, Marilyn Manson, Green Day, and Queen. The only kind of music I can;t really stand is most r&b, and country & western. Oh and West Friggin Life!

But I always play what the crowd want, and if they drift off the dancefloor I just change the genre. Plus the old favourites like amarillo, macarena, timewarp, always get them up!

Just my opinion, which is like bumholes, everyone has one!

TBH, the quality of your DJing is clearly irrelivant as you use the word ninja to describe it. That automatically makes it awesome.

Run_to_da_hills

I have seen really good DJs using Mp3s from ordinary laptops, this is just a more convenient medium of playing music. Skill is still involved in setting up a playlist and blending tunes. I personally prefere to have a back up of cds if i am using Mp3s as if the thing crashes several times in one night you are really a bad DJ :eek:

Doctor DooM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I have seen really good DJs using Mp3s from ordinary laptops, this is just a more convenient medium of playing music. Skill is still involved in setting up a playlist and blending tunes. I personally prefere to have a back up of cds if i am using Mp3s as if the thing crashes several times in one night you are really a bad DJ :eek:

Stop using Windows computers, and crashes stop being a problem.

L1011

I don't bother arguing with people who claim theirs no skill in DJing, because the music they listen to is usually such tedious crap it gives you great insight in to their knowledge and appreciation of it... And at that, any single one of them I've placed behind my 1210s or CDJ1000s have made a complete and utter arse of trying to get two mixes in a row.

I use computers as a media source at best - Soundplay on BeOS with a +/-200% pitch range is quite handy. I mix everything manually. I don't generally play commercial. The people who go on about DJing having no skill are the people who see pub DJs - and joke DJs like Peter Hook (love New Order, followed them around for a while, but for the love of god stop it), Lily Allen, Peaches Geldof, etc - and assume everyone else is like that.

Single Malt

SDooM wrote: »

Stop using Windows computers, and crashes stop being a problem.

99.99% of crashes on any system is the users fault. Don't think mac or linux is any less prone to crashes.

Run_to_da_hills

Single Malt wrote: »

99.99% of crashes on any system is the users fault. Don't think mac or linux is any less prone to crashes.

Not necessarly, It can be faulty hardware related i.e BSOD. Hard drive or graphic card failure.

BostonB

People find lots of reasons to rationalise and justify the music they listen to and the music they don't listen too. Why they feel the need I never understand. You can't apply metrics to peoples subjective opinion.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not necessarly, It can be faulty hardware related i.e BSOD. Hard drive or graphic card failure.

Logically, that makes no sense. Its either "user error" or "hardware failure". The majority of anything can only be one thing. If it was both there would be no majority.

I would be cynical of most surveys but from experience most computer problems I see are self inflicted. Basically human error is most likely.

ntlbell

it depends how you define dj

at the end of the day a good dj is the one that plays the music you want to hear.

after that it's all very subjective you have to get into timing and record placment pitch control etc.

for most people none of the above matters they want to hear good music.

so what part of djing requires skill?

is it beat mixing?

judgment?

timing?

record placment?

production?

imo the line between an ok dj and a 'genuis'

is very small...

i would imagine a total noob could produce a half decent record after a week or two of playing with a few 404's etc nothing amazing but decent enough.

the problem it's almost impossible to compare the skill of a dj to someone who plays a guitar as much as it a guitar to someone who plays a harp

they all require a skill it's just a different skill set

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

...at the end of the day a good dj is the one that plays the music you want to hear....

That a major skill, talent in itself.

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

i would imagine a total noob could produce a half decent record after a week or two of playing with a few 404's etc nothing amazing but decent enough.

jesus christ man.how ridiculous is that.you can say that about anything.given a week you could do a very bad attempt at xyz.
please tell this opinion to every bedroom producer you meet.trust me its alot harder than you think to make dance music.
talk about narrow minded.

ntlbell

seannash wrote: »

jesus christ man.how ridiculous is that.you can say that about anything.given a week you could do a very bad attempt at xyz.
please tell this opinion to every bedroom producer you meet.trust me its alot harder than you think to make dance music.
talk about narrow minded.

Just to clear it up

give me a guitar for a week, i'll give you nothing

give me a voilin for a week, i'll give you nothing.

after a week with something as basic as a 404 i'll give you a full song.

Scubadevils

ntlbell wrote: »

it depends how you define dj

at the end of the day a good dj is the one that plays the music you want to hear.

after that it's all very subjective you have to get into timing and record placment pitch control etc.

for most people none of the above matters they want to hear good music.

Yes, for most people those elements don't matter as they don't know they exist in the first place, but they do all contribute to what becomes a good listening experience regardless of an individuals knowledge on the technicalities behind the music being played.

so what part of djing requires skill?

is it beat mixing?

judgment?

timing?

record placment?

production?

imo the line between an ok dj and a 'genuis'

is very small...

All of the above require skill, a musical ear, musical knowledge and creativity (among others).

i would imagine a total noob could produce a half decent record after a week or two of playing with a few 404's etc nothing amazing but decent enough.

the problem it's almost impossible to compare the skill of a dj to someone who plays a guitar as much as it a guitar to someone who plays a harp

they all require a skill it's just a different skill set

They could probably come up with something alright (wouldn't think it would be any good though), but I don't see the connection to how people consider DJing to be without skill/talent?

Of course it is impossible, they are completely different skills and someone who is great on a guitar for exampls, may never master a set of turntables, and vice versa.

francois

Mixing and timing are important, though what comes with playing out is an ability to "read" a crowd, there's little point showing off your deck wizardry or playing the latest must have dub-plate/remix if the crowd arent into it-that being said there is no point in booking a DJ, or DJing yourself if you are asked to do a wedding and all you bring is techno-you can argue that there are 2 types of DJ's-the ones whose bread and butter gigs are 21st's etc, and those who specialise in electronic/dance music-they are miles apart from each other, and cant really be compared.
Though it's habdy doing a wedding when all the guests are ravers

Doctor DooM

BostonB wrote: »

People find lots of reasons to rationalise and justify the music they listen to and the music they don't listen too. Why they feel the need I never understand. You can't apply metrics to peoples subjective opinion.



Logically, that makes no sense. Its either "user error" or "hardware failure". The majority of anything can only be one thing. If it was both there would be no majority.

I would be cynical of most surveys but from experience most computer problems I see are self inflicted. Basically human error is most likely.

You are wrong, no offence.

Many crashes are due to system deadlocks.

Many are due to hardware issues and bad drivers.

Many are due to bleeding of ram.

All of these things happen mainly on Windows comps.

Windows OS'es tend to be resource hogs. For playing live music this is not good.

Macs give you more for music production with less resources and decent software for free. You can make a dance song straight out of the box with a new Mac.

I'm a software consultant btw.

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

Just to clear it up

give me a guitar for a week, i'll give you nothing

give me a voilin for a week, i'll give you nothing.

after a week with something as basic as a 404 i'll give you a full song.

okay then mate since you asked
give me a piano for a week ill give you chopsticks.
give me the tin whistle for a week ill give you a basic tune.
give me a drum kit for a week ill give you a basic groove.
you cant just pick some musical instuments and apply your theory to it.
if your going to make statements like that its gotta apply to all musical instuments.your just being an elitist snob about it.just because you can do something doesnt mean its ****ing good.people sit in there bedroom for years with there guitars and produce nothing but crap.

BostonB

...

ntlbell

seannash wrote: »

your just being an elitist snob about it.just because you can do something doesnt mean its ****ing good..

How am I being a snob?

A snob, guilty of snobbery, is a person who adopts the worldview that some people are inherently inferior to him/her for any one of a variety of reasons including real or supposed

I never owned a guitar, I have had 1210's for 13yrs and have owned various drum machines etc in my time.

you need to pay closer attention when reading people's posts.

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

How am I being a snob?

A snob, guilty of snobbery, is a person who adopts the worldview that some people are inherently inferior to him/her for any one of a variety of reasons including real or supposed

I never owned a guitar, I have had 1210's for 13yrs and have owned various drum machines etc in my time.

you need to pay closer attention when reading people's posts.

its musical snobbery.now apply what you just wrote to it.
one form of music is inferior to another.
so having had drum machines for a few years how good were the tracks you made with them(now im not having a go im just reaffirming a point).how ong did it take you before you were able to produce a good track
if i learn a chord on a guitar and learn how to strum it,im technically playing it.obviously there comes a point where you need to progress in order to be better at it.
just some people think that after a month or two theres no improvement that can be made to ones abilities as a dj which is false.and as for crowd reading,bands and other musicians dont have to worry about it.they just play whatever they have in there set list so i can see how they wouldnt think its a worthwhile skill to have.
anyway this whole give me a week thing is bull****.this wasnt a production question anyway so who cares about a basic tune on a drum machine

ntlbell

seannash wrote: »

its musical snobbery.now apply what you just wrote to it.
one form of music is inferior to another.

can you point me to two things.

where did i say any music was inferior to another

and where i said there was no skill in djing?

thanks

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

can you point me to two things.

where did i say any music was inferior to another

and where i said there was no skill in djing?

thanks

well you implied one form of music was easier to create than the other. and you basiclly asked what part of djing required skill.

ntlbell

seannash wrote: »

well you implied one form of music was easier to create than the other. and you basiclly asked what part of djing required skill.

I didn't imply anything that's what you chose to take from what I said.

It was a rhetorical question as in how do we define the skill of being a dj and put some forward.

seannash

cool man.your right im wrong