Dublin's N11 dualler

D.L.R.

Are they ever going to improve grade separation on this road? It does my nut in!

Its like a clogged artery during the rush, traffic lights every half mile. I've looked on gmaps and there seems to be space at most junctions for some grade separation.

So is it likely? Can't see it happening with the interurbans on the go, then the atlantic corridor, then the future outer orbital etc etc. When will they get round to fixing up the N11? Seeing the plans for Newlands Cross made me think of the N11, and how its now showing its age.

ardmacha

I am not sure that grade separating one junction make any difference, the queue from Nutley lane runs under the Belfield flyover. In some cases the grade separation would be more help to the traffic crossing the N11, e.g. at Stillorgan Park.

bazzer

I seem to remember the then new Minister for Transport Seamus Brennan himself questioning the multiplicity of traffic lights on the N11 and hinting at raising the speed limit.

AlekSmart

Will ye whisht DLR.... :eek:

If you keep up that oul talk we`ll end up with something like the Belgard/Ballymount yoke....a Curates Egg...A Camel of a Junction.....(Horse designed by a Committee)....:o

HonalD

DLR - Ever heard of sustainable modes or have I just taken the bait ??? If traffic lights get you down - take the most successful QBC ever......:)

Stark

The buses have to stop at the traffic lights as well

HonalD

Stark wrote: »

The buses have to stop at the traffic lights as well

And if it wasn't for those pesky passengers...it wouldn't have to stop between them

DWCommuter

Despite the humour, this road is a classic example of Irish transport gombeenism. It was a big deal when they decided to do way back when. Hell it even made an episode of "Reeling in the years". If we had chosen to emulate our UK cousins like we've done in so many areas, then the N11 dualer would've been grade seperated from day one. The entire dualer would be in a cutting all the way to the M11. The N7 Naas road from Bluebell is another example of how not to do it, when you're feeling ambitious. Yet again that section of road should be in a cutting to beyond Newlands. These two roads are the earliest examples of dual carraigeway in Ireland and currently the cause of horrendous congestion, with the N7 the subject of a retrofit at both the Red Cow (due to the even more badly planned M50) and Newlands Cross.

Visit any backwater in the UK and witness the very basic grade seperation on dual carraigeways in areas that don't carry anywhere near the volume of the N11 or N7, Irelands leading dual carraigeways from a time gone by.:rolleyes:

ardmacha

As the UK was twice as prosperous as Ireland in those days, perhaps it wasn't so much a case of "gombeenism" as rational use of expenditure?

Idbatterim

the n11 really is a joke, especially the proximity of junctions to one another especially in town, could they not use underpasses even ones only tall enough for cars? say 2m in height? like they do in most continental countries?

spacetweek

The N11 was built on the cheap back when we'd no money. Grade separation was expecting too much.

Nowadays, the density of development around it might make such a move difficult. I think it would be better to leave it as an "urban dual carriageway".

Grade separation would, however, also benefit buses which wouldn't get held up anymore.

HonalD wrote: »

DLR - Ever heard of sustainable modes or have I just taken the bait ??? If traffic lights get you down - take the most successful QBC ever......:)

HonalD

I agree that grade seperation would help ease congestion .........BUT..........who's congestion is it? And is this the way we want to continue ....building bigger roads to fulfill private car users.....the UK is not an example to compare ourselves with......It a bigger problem than just the N11 - It's a change of mindset

DWCommuter

spacetweek wrote: »

The N11 was built on the cheap back when we'd no money. Grade separation was expecting too much.

Nowadays, the density of development around it might make such a move difficult. I think it would be better to leave it as an "urban dual carriageway".

Grade separation would, however, also benefit buses which wouldn't get held up anymore.

Ardmacha was in like flynn with the oul "poor Ireland" side of things. Right so, I'll accept that, but draw attention to the above post and its references to the density around the N11. Way back when we decided to build it on the cheap because poor Ireland had no money, but still wanted to provide a "big road" for the affluent and employed people of South Dublin, why was an upgrade not factored in? Why was development allowed to happen so tight to this road? Why was the UCD entrance grade seperated? I'm surprised the Gombeens didn't build a grade seperated junction for RTE!!! C'mon lads, forward thinking costs nothing. Pick the best option, build the cheapest and factor in potential upgrades. That wasn't done with the N11 or N7. Now thats gombeenism. Read the historical Dail debates about these roads. Hilarious! I'll dig out the links sometime or google away yourself.

I'll leave you with this carrot. Imagine how things would be now if the N11 was grade seperated from Donnybrook bus garage to the M11. Imagine how it would be on the N7 if it was grade seperated from Bluebell Luas stop. We'd no cash in the past, but we'd no vision either. I offer vision here all the time and its free.:D

HonalD

DWCommuter wrote: »

Ardmacha was in like flynn with the oul "poor Ireland" side of things. Right so, I'll accept that, but draw attention to the above post and its references to the density around the N11. Way back when we decided to build it on the cheap because poor Ireland had no money, but still wanted to provide a "big road" for the affluent and employed people of South Dublin, why was an upgrade not factored in? Why was development allowed to happen so tight to this road? Why was the UCD entrance grade seperated? I'm surprised the Gombeens didn't build a grade seperated junction for RTE!!! C'mon lads, forward thinking costs nothing. Pick the best option, build the cheapest and factor in potential upgrades. That wasn't done with the N11 or N7. Now thats gombeenism. Read the historical Dail debates about these roads. Hilarious! I'll dig out the links sometime or google away yourself.

I'll leave you with this carrot. Imagine how things would be now if the N11 was grade seperated from Donnybrook bus garage to the M11. Imagine how it would be on the N7 if it was grade seperated from Bluebell Luas stop. We'd no cash in the past, but we'd no vision either. I offer vision here all the time and its free.:D

Out of town would be a dream but in to town..................a big long queue

DWCommuter

HonalD wrote: »

I agree that grade seperation would help ease congestion .........BUT..........who's congestion is it? And is this the way we want to continue ....building bigger roads to fulfill private car users.....the UK is not an example to compare ourselves with......It a bigger problem than just the N11 - It's a change of mindset

Hold on there my fellow county man. I'm talking about very basic road engineering that couldve been done years ago or at least planned for. The UK is actually a perfect example because our population is only a fraction on theirs. What fails for them in volume terms, can work for us. And don't forget that you must build public transport options on all routes to offer choice. The UK, despite being cash rich, thought its big duallers and motorways were the solution and justification for closing rail lines. Over here we just closed them without any investment in anything other than a battered leyland bus.:D

DWCommuter

HonalD wrote: »

Out of town would be a dream but in to town..................a big long queue

Actually no.

You assume all traffic is heading to town. The science of traffic flows and grade seperation allowing a "rush to the front" (the inevitable at grade junction) doesn't work like you suggest. Each junction is a distributor to other routes and the end on junction is primed to facilitate volume.

I thought like you when the N7 was grade seperated. I predicted massive tailbacks at Newlands (inbound) due to the lights being removed at Johnstown and Kill and traffic rushing forward without stopping. It didn't happen. So I went away and found out why it doesn't happen and thats now a state secret.:D But there is a reason.

JupiterKid

The N11 Stillorgan Dual carriageway was built in stages, from about 1974 to 1978...Ireland had no money back then to invest in a decent standard of roads let alone proper grade separation. As it was, the Stillorgan dualler did have one of the republic's first road/road flyovers at UCD Belfield and was a step up in design terms from its slightly older sibling, the Naas Dualler.

I think that if funding was available, putting grade separated interchanges in at Stillorgan village, Foxrock Church and Cabinteely would be beneficial but would not really solve the traffic congestion on the N11 as the traffic had to funnel into a single carriageway at Donnybrook. I don't think that grade separation of the N11 inside the M50 zone is on the cards.

loyatemu

if and when the eastern bypass is built then the existing M50 from Shankill to Leopardstown will become the M11 (this is why the junction numbering on the N11 start at "5") and traffic will have the option of using this route into the city-centre (it'll probably be tolled, but road-pricing is on the way anyway).

They will never grade seperate the existing dualler.

icdg

Indeed. Also the N11 between Donneybrook and Shankill probably has the most private accesses of any dual carriageway in the state - there are whole rows of houses at the Donneybrook end with driveways out on the dual carriageway. This will keep the speed limit low. There are so many sets of traffic lights on the road that they'll never be able to GS them all, maybe some of the major junctions but I don't think the cost-benifit is worth it.

Cool Mo D

The N11 is so long and has so much private frontage that it's hard to see how grade separating would be remotely possible. I think the N4 Chapelizod bypass would be a much better candidate for this - it's mostly separate already, would just require a few over/underpasses without too much property acquisition to get it in as far as the south circular road.
It's probably just a pipe dream anyway, I can't see any more major road projects near the city centre.

maclek

Grade seperation is doa, so is doing anything about inbound morning traffic due to the bottleneck in Donnybrook. I personally go from Cabinteely to James' Gate leaving at 6:45 and it takes me 20 minutes, bus lanes are great things.:)

The evening outbound commute it another story. 90% of the problem here is the traffic light timing. They seem to be set based on the assumption that there is no traffic. One light goes green and the next goes green at about the timing if you were going 60 km/h, which of course you can't, you're stuck waiting for every light in front of you to clear.

By far simplest solution would be to double the time at all the traffic signals: not just on the dc but the feeder roads and the filter lights too. Sure traffic would back up a bit onto Merrion Rd and Stillorgan village but it would clear faster with a doubling of the light time. You can get much more than twice as much traffic on each cycle if you double the time. Some of the roads like the rise and into the Raddison don't even need the full double.