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Has he been had!!!

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  • 23-05-2008 10:37am
    #1
    Handy1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭


    Hi All,

    A friend of mine has just purchased a cheap(or so he thought), car.
    However, when he checked it iout it still has finance on it from some company.
    He went to contact the seller that he bought it from, and unfortunateky the sellers phone was off and he cannot be contacted.

    Can the finance company take this car back from him or is he fooloing hiself to think that he can keep it?

    Some advice would be great,thanks.


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    #2
    Victor_M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭Victor_M


    AFAIK your mate is in a spot of bother, as the car wasn't the other persons property to sell until the finance was cleared on it. The finance company own it until the very last payment has been paid.

    I'd get your mate to report it to the cops, get a solicitor's advice and try and track down the Cnut that sold the car.

    No point crying over split milk, it's probably a ready to go phone number, hopefully he had the cop on to go and meet the seller at his house when he inspected and paid for the car. If so tell him to get around now as soon as the first payment is missed the finance company will come looking for the register owner of the car.

    Previous owners name and address should be on the Vehicle licensing document.


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    #3
    Curvy Vixen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Curvy Vixen


    The car belongs to the finance company until the finance is cleared.

    Assuming he's not able to contact the seller at all he has a variety of options...

    He can keep his head down and say nothing (but risk debt collectors at his door, or coming out and finding the car gone)

    He can contact the finance company and sort things out with them

    He can contact the police though I think they will say there's nothing they can do

    I assume he has no contact details for the seller other than the phone number? What about their address? How long has he had the car ~ can payment for it from his side be stopped?


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    #4
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,158 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Did your friend not visit the seller's home to view the car and conclude the sale, so that he can track the seller down? How did he come to know that there was outstanding finance on the car after buying it?

    No offence but it really does sound like your friend went into this deal blindfolded. Just goes to prove you do really need to do your background checks before you buy. If a deal is too good to be true then it usually is. Your friend could be in trouble if the last owner doesn't keep up the payments.


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    #5
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    Curvy Vixen wrote: »
    The car belongs to the finance company until the finance is cleared.

    I have a car loan and I also have all the necessary documents to prove that I am the full and legal owner of the car. So how can this be an argument for confiscating the car? The finance company surely have to go after the previous owner. They cannot confisacte the car from him obviously but I'm sure they have other methods.


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    #6
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    bazz26 wrote: »
    No offence but it really does sound like your friend went into this deal blindfolded. Just goes to prove you do really need to do your background checks before you buy. If a deal is too good to be true then it usually is. Your friend could be in trouble if the last owner doesn't keep up the payments.

    How do you check if there is an outstanding loan? The loan is with the person so are you suggesting you need to do a finance check on the person you are buying the car from?

    Are you suggesting the original owner can just stop paying his loan and the bank will go, oh ok, no worries, we'll go fleece the poor bugger who bought the car from you?

    I think the advice given on this thread does not sound right at all.


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    #7
    NinjaTruncs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭NinjaTruncs


    Gegerty wrote: »
    I have a car loan and I also have all the necessary documents to prove that I am the full and legal owner of the car. So how can this be an argument for confiscating the car? The finance company surely have to go after the previous owner. They cannot confisacte the car from him obviously but I'm sure they have other methods.

    the car loan is secured on the car, not the person. so if you don't pay off your loan they take the car back.
    A friend of mine who worked in a bank said you should get a personal loan out rather than a car loan, this way the car isn't tied to the loan.

    4.3kWp South facing PV System. South Dublin



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    #8
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    NinjaTruncs wrote: »
    the car loan is secured on the car, not the person. so if you don't pay off your loan they take the car back.
    A friend of mine who worked in a bank said you should get a personal loan out rather than a car loan, this way the car isn't tied to the loan.

    Yeah I understand that but there is no documentation. I can produce all the documentation needed to prove I am the full and legal owner of the car, it does not mention anywhere that my finance company own it.

    And in the case where you default on your payments and the bank come looking for the car only to find that you havwe sold it what happens? I seriously doubt they just say ah ok you've sold it, no worries we're just going to go take it off the poor bugger you sold it to. Be sure to come to us again if you need another loan!

    And if they do come to the new owner he can produce documentation to prove that they did not own the car, that the person he bought it off owned the car.


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    #9
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    It all depends on the type of finance agreement. Not all loans are secured against the car. In most cases ownership passes to the purchaser immediately, in others the title is retained by the finance company. Best not to jump to conclusions. If he knows there is finance owing then he should know who the financers are and what the perms were. No point speculating, just go and find out the facts.


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    #10
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    I would say they should start by contacting the finance company and letting them know what's going on. This isn't going to go away and it's not going to fix itself.

    The finance company will be MUCH better at tracking down the seller than your friend is...


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    #11
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,158 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Gegerty wrote: »
    How do you check if there is an outstanding loan? The loan is with the person so are you suggesting you need to do a finance check on the person you are buying the car from?

    If the car is financed through a HP agreement you can get a HPI check done on the car. Don't know what the story is with personal or car loans but then how did the new owner find out that there is outstanding finance on the car? A personal loan would not show up on a HPI check either as the loan is not against the car.
    Gegerty wrote: »
    Are you suggesting the original owner can just stop paying his loan and the bank will go, oh ok, no worries, we'll go fleece the poor bugger who bought the car from you?

    I think the advice given on this thread does not sound right at all.

    If the original owner decided to pack up and leave the country tomorrow without settling the debt. The bank will chase their property to recover the bad debt.

    Granted there is alot of speculation here and we really need more details from the OP as to what type of finance was used and why/how did he find out there was outstanding finance after the sale was complete?


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    #12
    Biro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Biro


    Gegerty wrote: »
    Yeah I understand that but there is no documentation. I can produce all the documentation needed to prove I am the full and legal owner of the car, it does not mention anywhere that my finance company own it.

    And in the case where you default on your payments and the bank come looking for the car only to find that you havwe sold it what happens? I seriously doubt they just say ah ok you've sold it, no worries we're just going to go take it off the poor bugger you sold it to. Be sure to come to us again if you need another loan!

    And if they do come to the new owner he can produce documentation to prove that they did not own the car, that the person he bought it off owned the car.
    Not all loans are the same. Hire Purchase is one example. There are others too. I was buying a car in the UK, and as is normal, I was lining up a few examples to look at. Ruled out one as the HPI check informed me that a Finance company were the legal owner of it. So it's all different. In a case like that, if I shelled out cash to Jonny Jimbo and took the keys and car, the Finance company still own it. They can't get the money from Mr. Jimbo, so they take their car back, it being what I think is my car.


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    #13
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    A lot of 'car loans' given out by banks are unsecured personal loans for the purpose of buying cars. They have no tie to the actual car, they're just called 'car loans'.

    Car finance that you sign up to in a dealership or other finance company *is* normally secured on the car.

    Not quite sure how it works but the debt is registered (probably with ICB) and can be searched for e.g. by cartell.

    @Gegerty- registration documents are not absolute proof of ownership.


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    #14
    BillyGoatGruff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭BillyGoatGruff


    If a HPI check has been done and the car shows up as owing finance then the car is owned by the bank until the last payment is made.(as a previous poster said) The car is used as collateral for securing the loan. The VLC may still be in the car drivers name but it is owned by the bank.


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    #15
    Curvy Vixen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Curvy Vixen


    Sorry, been away!

    Everyone else has fairly much covered what my answers would have been but I am assuming that if your friend knows that there is finance on the car, then the loan taken out to buy the car originally must be against the car rather than a personal loan ~ otherwise how would your friend know about it IYSWIM? And if that is the case then the car absolutely belongs to the finance company until the last payment is made and they are entitled to take back the car if the payments aren't made on it.

    Happens a lot in the UK and some companies are better than others at sorting it out. It's a common known scam there that people are buying cars, paying the repayments for a couple of months and then selling the car. They are supposed to tell the HP company they are selling so that arrangements to clear the HP can be made in advance of the car changing hands but that obviously never happens in the case of a scam.

    To check the history on a car being bought this company are pretty good...

    http://www.motorcheck.ie/


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    #16
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I think outstanding finance happens a lot more often that is common knowledge. I sold a car myself that had outstanding HP on it. The reason being of course to pay off the outstanding amount once you actually get the money in.


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    #17
    Handy1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Handy1


    Hi All,

    Original poster here, sorry for my late reply.
    I was trying to obtain all the facts.

    My friend said that he checked the finance through Cartel and that was how he made the discovery of finance.
    The car is about 15k and there is still 4k outstandinbg.
    The finance company have said to him that he must now pay the outstanding monies due and he has said he is not doing that and will drive the car as if it was his own(which he assumes it is as he paid cash and has a receipt)(although he still cannot get the guy who sold it to him)!!
    The loan was taken out on the car.

    The car has been bought and sold 4 times since the finance was taken out.
    He said he heard it from someone that if a car has changed hands several times then the finance company cannot take it back. Is he correct?
    Is this a civil matter now? I'm not to sure and am worried that he will go out one morning and it won't be there.

    Any help from anyone would be great,thanks.

    Handy1


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    #18
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,672 ✭✭✭whippet


    Handy1 wrote: »
    Hi All,

    Original poster here, sorry for my late reply.
    I was trying to obtain all the facts.

    My friend said that he checked the finance through Cartel and that was how he made the discovery of finance.
    The car is about 15k and there is still 4k outstandinbg.
    The finance company have said to him that he must now pay the outstanding monies due and he has said he is not doing that and will drive the car as if it was his own(which he assumes it is as he paid cash and has a receipt)(although he still cannot get the guy who sold it to him)!!
    The loan was taken out on the car.

    The car has been bought and sold 4 times since the finance was taken out.
    He said he heard it from someone that if a car has changed hands several times then the finance company cannot take it back. Is he correct?
    Is this a civil matter now? I'm not to sure and am worried that he will go out one morning and it won't be there.

    Any help from anyone would be great,thanks.

    Handy1

    as far as I know, regardless of how when and how often the car was sold, it belongs to the finance company. Unfortunatly if they don't get their payments they can take the car from whoever the keeper is.


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    #19
    sk8board
    Registered Users Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭sk8board


    whippet wrote: »
    as far as I know, regardless of how when and how often the car was sold, it belongs to the finance company.

    This is absolutely correct.

    Under a Hire Purchase agreement, the item (in this case the car) belongs to the lender until AFTER the LAST payment is made, irrespective of when that is. the current owner of the car agrees must make the repayments.
    Basically your friend is funked, but the HP may be prepared to negotiate (even though they don't actually have to).

    A car loan on the other hand its between the lender and the individual, and will not mentioned a specific car, just that there is an inference that its a 'car' loan.

    they can use it for a car, then sell the car and bring it to vegas and put it all on black. the loan is still outstanding, but not from the person who bought the car

    He may have some come-back via the Comsumer's association or small claims court with the Seller, assuming he can be traced.
    EDIT: tell you mate to pick up any newspaper, find one of those car manufacturuer ad's for finance, and read the small print. Its all there, chapter and verse.


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    #20
    deman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭deman


    It can't be that difficult to track down the previous owner, can it? Was the car not taxed? Insured?


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    #21
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,158 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Am I missing something but why did your friend wait until after the car was bought to do a finance check on it?


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    #22
    Churchy
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭Churchy


    bazz26 wrote: »
    Am I missing something but why did your friend wait until after the car was bought to do a finance check on it?

    +1

    New user posting , his "friend" bought a dodgy car.
    Seems to be under the impression if the car is washed through enough sales then it will all go away...............................


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    #23
    Curvy Vixen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Curvy Vixen


    It's never gonna go away....tell your friend to sort it properly! He can dig his heels in all he likes but facts are facts and sadly this is a lesson hard learned!

    I know it's easy to say now but the check should have been done in advance of the purchase. Look at it like a survey for a house! If you're gonna spend €15k on a car then spend 50 quid on a finance check ahead of handing over the money.


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    #24
    itarumaa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 704 ✭✭✭itarumaa


    Handy1 wrote: »
    Hi All,

    The car has been bought and sold 4 times since the finance was taken out.

    Handy1

    Why I have a feeling that only reason for so many sales is that the current owners noticed that car had a finance behind it and decided to get rid off it before it´s too late?


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    #25
    Sizzler
    Registered Users Posts: 5,430 ✭✭✭Sizzler


    stevec wrote: »
    A lot of 'car loans' given out by banks are unsecured personal loans for the purpose of buying cars. They have no tie to the actual car, they're just called 'car loans'.


    Exactly. Dont really get this whole thing of finance being owed on the car :confused: How many car loan forms ask what car you are buying, what the reg is etc? For all the banks know you could have borrowed the cash and pi**ed it up against the wall :D


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    #26
    Curvy Vixen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Curvy Vixen


    Sizzler, it's obviously not a 'car loan' it's obviously HP on a car. Some loans are given as personal loans or car loans or house improvement loans, whatever, and these are given to the person, as a personal loan and they are spent as the person wishes.

    Other hire purchase agreements are most common on car purchasing. It's a bit like a mortgage for a car where the bank actually owns your house until the last payment. In HP agreements the car is owned by the bank until the last payment is made. Makes it easier for people to sod off owing money than a personal loan tbh....


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    #27
    BillyGoatGruff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭BillyGoatGruff


    Sizzler wrote: »
    Exactly. Dont really get this whole thing of finance being owed on the car :confused: How many car loan forms ask what car you are buying, what the reg is etc? For all the banks know you could have borrowed the cash and pi**ed it up against the wall :D

    All carloan forms ask what car you are buying. The loan IS secured against the car.

    Only in the case of a personal loan could you buy the car sell it , piss money up against wall, but you will will be solely responible for the payment of this loan and not the purchaser of you car.


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    #28
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Handy1 wrote: »
    The car has been bought and sold 4 times since the finance was taken out.
    He said he heard it from someone that if a car has changed hands several times then the finance company cannot take it back. Is he correct?
    Is this a civil matter now? I'm not to sure and am worried that he will go out one morning and it won't be there.

    If someone steals a DVD player and sells it to someone who sells it to someone else who sells it to me, does that make it any less stolen?

    The finance company have a lien on the car (I think that's the legal term anyway...) and as such, noone has the right to sell it without their say so.


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