[article] Chad rebels confront Army Rangers

Tabnabs

Chad rebels confront Army Rangers

CONOR LALLY in Goz Beida, Eastern Chad

THIRTY MEMBERS of the elite Army Ranger Wing were confronted by 200 heavily armed rebels while patrolling close to the Chad-Darfur border as part of the European peace enforcement mission (EUFor) in Chad, it has emerged.

The Rangers’ chance encounter with the rebel grouping took place last week on a long-range patrol which has just been completed in an area east of the village of Ade. The area is classified by EUFor as a zone of maximum danger, or “red zone”.

One Ranger source said the rebels “came out of nowhere” after a small group of Rangers drove into a village as the rest of the 30-strong Irish patrol observed from a distance.

The Union of Forces for Change and Democracy (UFCD) grouping, who were armed with assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, was not hostile towards the Irish and agreed to speak with them through the Rangers’ interpreters.

It was the first time in the four month-old French-led EUFor mission that any of its 3,700 international troops has established contact with one of the rebel groupings.

The UFCD is a splinter rebel group made up of men who took part in a major assault by 2,500 rebels on the Chadian capital, N’Djamena, in February and almost succeeded in taking the city from the government.

The Rangers have also received intelligence in recent days that a number of rebel groups are rallying in Darfur about 45 miles from Goz Beida, in eastern Chad, where 400 Irish troops are currently constructing their new base.

According to a military source, a fresh rebel assault on N’Djamena has not been ruled out before the rainy season starts in three weeks when roads will be impassable.

During the February attack, the rebels made their way from Darfur through Goz Beida.

Defence Forces Deputy Chief of Staff Major Gen Dave Ashe, who is currently on a visit to Chad, told The Irish Times the planned withdrawal next month of the Rangers will not compromise the safety of the other 400 Irish troops remaining with the EUfor mission.

Major Gen Ashe said the Irish soldiers now arriving in Chad must be ready to face “warrior” rebel groupings if the need arises when the Rangers withdraw in mid June.

“These [militia] are not your average bandit, they are tough boyos,” he said.

“Some people have described them as warriors. They know how to fight. But they would not have the capability that we have.”

The 400 troops, mainly from the Western Brigade, would now begin to “patrol in force”.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0522/1211370791728.html

Mr Magnolia

Would this have been the expected re-action from the rebels or would a higher level of hostility been expected?

King Ludvig

Fair play to the lads out there, utmost respect for them.

segaBOY

King Ludvig wrote: »

Fair play to the lads out there, utmost respect for them.

Here here

kaimera

I defo aint going back to Tchad now!

Manic Moran

King Ludvig wrote: »

Fair play to the lads out there, utmost respect for them.

They allowed themselves to be outnumbered 200 to 30 by rebels who came "Out of nowhere", and you say 'fair play'?

Sure, they turned out to be friendly enough, but what if the 200 came "out of nowhere" and weren't so amicable?

Seems to me that someone screwed up, and the Irish got lucky. ARW or not, 200 plays less than 30 aren't great odds.

NTM

minidazzler

I am just thinking, I have always been told that the thing the Irish Army likes to do is have 3 guys against 1.

But here it was 6 against 1 on the Rebels side.

Major error. and could have cost some very well trained lives.

jeff lebowski

the thing the Irish Army likes to do is have 3 guys against 1.

That is a rule of tactical doctrine for offensive operations. The Brits teach the same thing, it's because the advantage is usually in the defenders favour. In practice, things are different.

And from the details given in the story nobody can say if there was a "major error" or not. They sent a small recce party into a village covered by their main body of troops with fire support which is the SOP if an obstacle or built up area is encountered. How would you know if a village has personnel in it unless you send in a reconaissance party?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dyflin wrote: »

One Ranger source said the rebels “came out of nowhere” after a small group of Rangers drove into a village as the rest of the 30-strong Irish patrol observed from a distance.

And this is where journalistic licence kicked in.

Its a BS story lads.

segaBOY

Manic Moran wrote: »

They allowed themselves to be outnumbered 200 to 30 by rebels who came "Out of nowhere", and you say 'fair play'?

Sure, they turned out to be friendly enough, but what if the 200 came "out of nowhere" and weren't so amicable?

Seems to me that someone screwed up, and the Irish got lucky. ARW or not, 200 plays less than 30 aren't great odds.

NTM

Never knew you where out in Chad doing a better job

helimachoptor

segaBOY wrote: »

Never knew you where out in Chad doing a better job

Thats cos he's usually sitting nice and safe in his abrams:D:D



=Sarcasm!!

Could have ended badly but didnt, lets hope there's not a repeat of the West Side boys incident...

Manic Moran

helimachoptor wrote: »

Thats cos he's usually sitting nice and safe in his abrams:D:D

They took my tank away from me
Bradley, now.

They sent a small recce party into a village covered by their main body of troops with fire support which is the SOP if an obstacle or built up area is encountered. How would you know if a village has personnel in it unless you send in a reconaissance party?

How much support can a group of troops outside a built-up area provide to people inside a built-up area? Once they get past the first buildings, the recon troops are out of mutual support and reliant on whatever they brought with them, or what they can summon from the air or artillery until the overwatching troops join them inside the town.

You are correct that someone eventually had to go into the town, but I wonder how much time they spent checking it out before sending that one section in. Of course, this is information we don't have.

NTM

helimachoptor

Manic Moran wrote: »

They took my tank away from me
Bradley, now.



How much support can a group of troops outside a built-up area provide to people inside a built-up area? Once they get past the first buildings, the recon troops are out of mutual support and reliant on whatever they brought with them, or what they can summon from the air or artillery until the overwatching troops join them inside the town.

NTM

You could do what that guy did in LA in the 90's... Steal one!

Now i'm not in the army, but what he says makes sense...

Manic Moran

One? Psht. I want nine. (And there are rumours going around that the US will put the tanks back into cavalry, so I might be a happy camper yet!)

San Diego, not LA, by the way.

NTM

segaBOY

Manic Moran wrote: »

One? Psht. I want nine. (And there are rumours going around that the US will put the tanks back into cavalry, so I might be a happy camper yet!)

San Diego, not LA, by the way.

NTM

Sure if everyone on Boards.ie got together and bought you one would you be willing to go out to Chad next week and show the rangers how it's done??

It's very easy to criticise from behind a keyboard mo chara

dahamster

segaBOY wrote: »

It's very easy to criticise from behind a keyboard mo chara

he has walked the walk in iraq my friend so he knows what he is talking about

Manic Moran

Can't say I see a need to, unless the basic principles of 'going into a village in Chad' are somehow drastically different from the basic principles of 'going into a village in Iraq' or 'going into a village at NTC'

Now, it may have been a situation out of their control, such as such a compressed time scale that they didn't have the opportunity to do a proper threat analysis, in which case one wonders about the higher level instructions given to them. Either way, if they're in a 'red zone', as they call it, I'm sure that a 7:1 ratio against was not entirely what they had in mind as a 'good thing.' It could well have been that their actions were of such a high calibre that they prevented what may have become a nasty incident from turning sour, in which case good for them, but I think it's a bit of a mistake to rely on 'Irish good will' to provide immunity. Walk softly, but carry a big stick, as the famous dead guy said.

NTM

twinytwo

Manic Moran wrote: »

They allowed themselves to be outnumbered 200 to 30 by rebels who came "Out of nowhere", and you say 'fair play'?

Sure, they turned out to be friendly enough, but what if the 200 came "out of nowhere" and weren't so amicable?

Seems to me that someone screwed up, and the Irish got lucky. ARW or not, 200 plays less than 30 aren't great odds.

NTM

firstly 200 men just dont come "out of nowhere"...i dont think they "allowed" themselves to become outnumbered either. Would u rather they brought a thousand troops with them everytime they went into a village? maybe some armor and air support as well?

Irish_Army01

Manic Moran wrote: »

They allowed themselves to be outnumbered 200 to 30 by rebels who came "Out of nowhere", and you say 'fair play'?

Sure, they turned out to be friendly enough, but what if the 200 came "out of nowhere" and weren't so amicable?

Seems to me that someone screwed up, and the Irish got lucky. ARW or not, 200 plays less than 30 aren't great odds.

NTM

You could say that about any ODA's in Iraq/A-stan too.. SF units operate in small numbers..Fact. as Mairt said paper don't refuse ink.

There are so many variables that we can't comment on because non of us were there... We also don't know if they had French fast movers on speed dial

Manic Moran

firstly 200 men just dont come "out of nowhere"...

You're right. They don't.

So when a Ranger source is directly quoted as describing them as saying they "came out of nowhere," one of three things happened.

1- He exaggerates, they knew the amount of armed locals and they willingly allowed themselves to be drastically outnumbered by potential hostiles, with little protection. Those F-150s don't have armour. Doing so with no support is, I would suggest, not the most prudent course of action. No, a thousand troops isn't required. A couple of APCs might be nice, maybe calling for air support may also have been prudent if there were no APCs within driving range. Had the locals proven to be less friendly, I'm sure the term 'Niemba' would have been used by now.

We also don't know if they had French fast movers on speed dial

True. No mention of such, mind. One would have hoped that had they known what they were going into, they'd have made the 'phone call first, though.

2- He exaggerates, and the amount of armed locals in the area was sufficiently small to be handled by the group of Rangers should things have turned sour, in which case this whole article isn't really remarkable in the first place.

3- He does not exaggerate, and they truly were surprised by the 200 armed men, in which case they drove blind into a village without support indicating either a failure in recon, or a failure of those higher to allow them the lattitude to do their job correctly (i.e. time constraints)

I don't see any of these three as being 'only good things'

NTM

Irish_Army01

Manic Moran wrote: »

You're right. They don't.

So when a Ranger source is directly quoted as describing them as saying they "came out of nowhere," one of three things happened.

1- He exaggerates, they knew the amount of armed locals and they willingly allowed themselves to be drastically outnumbered by potential hostiles, with little protection. Those F-150s don't have armour. Doing so with no support is, I would suggest, not the most prudent course of action. No, a thousand troops isn't required. A couple of APCs might be nice, maybe calling for air support may also have been prudent if there were no APCs within driving range. Had the locals proven to be less friendly, I'm sure the term 'Niemba' would have been used by now.


True. No mention of such, mind. One would have hoped that had they known what they were going into, they'd have made the 'phone call first, though.

2- He exaggerates, and the amount of armed locals in the area was sufficiently small to be handled by the group of Rangers should things have turned sour, in which case this whole article isn't really remarkable in the first place.

3- He does not exaggerate, and they truly were surprised by the 200 armed men, in which case they drove blind into a village without support indicating either a failure in recon, or a failure of those higher to allow them the lattitude to do their job correctly (i.e. time constraints)

I don't see any of these three as being 'only good things'

NTM

One might bring to your attention a certain battle in Mogadishu in 1993.. Where was there Int/assessment ?

Chad is a vast country and yesterday's intel is todays old news. In my experience they would not have gone blind into the Area without a threat assessment..They have daily briefs and it was probably just unlucky that a band of rebels came by that way when they did.

Manic Moran

Irish_Army01 wrote: »

One might bring to your attention a certain battle in Mogadishu in 1993.. Where was there Int/assessment ?

One might indeed, and that was hardly a shining example of military preparedness either. But at least they had the thought to bring helicopter gunships along, and went in in sufficient numbers that they could hold their own positions.

In my experience they would not have gone blind into the Area without a threat assessment

I meant locally created. I would be highly surprised if they didn't stop outside the village and have a look at it before deciding what to do next.

NTM

Irish_Army01

Manic Moran wrote: »

One might indeed, and that was hardly a shining example of military preparedness either. But at least they had the thought to bring helicopter gunships along, and went in in sufficient numbers that they could hold their own positions.



I meant locally created. I would be highly surprised if they didn't stop outside the village and have a look at it before deciding what to do next.

NTM

The Village was in their AO, which they have been patrolling for 3 and a half months. I'm not indicating they got complacent, but is it not possible that these 200 rebels decided to travel out of there's?.. They would have had some intelligence to indicate such a threat from their interpreter's with them..

As I've said, so many variables..

eroo

No one here was present at the incident.So no one can comment on ARW capacity/tactics etc.Simply because we don't know the circumstances.Maybe the rebels had taken over the village in the hope of ambushing some French/Chadian troops??Maybe ARW knew there was a force in the area and they wished to establish contact with them..Who knows?No one here does anyway..

Fratton Fred

This sounds a bit like the Royal Irish regiment getting caught out in Sierra Leone.

Thankfully it ended more peacefully.

Chuck U Farley

I think it is pretty fair to say that Intel plays a large part of the rangers daily patrols, the chances are they were fully aware of group movements in their area of operations. But I think it’s unfair to assume that someone screwed up when the only info we have to go on is based on journalistic license.


This is a link to Sudanese newspaper on a similar story, the troops attacked were AU troops. http://sudantribune.com/spip.php?article27266 Most of attacks seem to be on the poorly equipped AU not the EUFOR troops except for the French sgt killed on the Sudanese border in early March.

Manic Moran

But I think it’s unfair to assume that someone screwed up when the only info we have to go on is based on journalistic license.

OK, I can conceed to that. Can we also conceed then that automatically congratulating them is equally unfounded?

NTM

Chuck U Farley

Manic Moran wrote: »

OK, I can conceed to that. Can we also conceed then that automatically congratulating them is equally unfounded?

NTM

Ok
But who is “automatically congratulating them”?

I think you may be confusing good will and support by friends, family and colleagues of the rangers on the ground. It’s like any unit in a hostile situation overseas, public support is key.

Chuck U Farley

Yet another article.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/peacekeepers-face-probe-into-leaked-photo-1393090.html?r=RSS

Fratton Fred

Who did the irish miltary send over, soldiers or Amateur Photographers?

biscuit_sligo

Some of the irish boys also have mobile phones over there now, with african numbers.

Size=everything

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who did the irish miltary send over, soldiers or Amateur Photographers?

Quite embarassing

NoQuarter

Not really lads, the boys are entitled to use cameras for their personal use, whats the problem with it?? wouldnt you??

Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill to me.


And so what about having mobile phones?? they have families too, they have to contact them some way...

biscuit_sligo

didnt say there was something wrong with it, you just stated the reason i know thet have phones. Although i prob posted it in the wrong thread, i think its great we can stay in such close contact with them, and its a great comfort to the lads too.

Size=everything

king-stew wrote: »

Not really lads, the boys are entitled to use cameras for their personal use, whats the problem with it?? wouldnt you??

Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill to me.


And so what about having mobile phones?? they have families too, they have to contact them some way...

just the thought of the elite of our defence forces being stopped by local Chad police and having to hand over a camera and have it looked at and the possibility of some local police officers actually disarming and arresting our special forces. they should know by now that it is not allowed and it just looks so unprofessional. I am disappointed.

Chuck U Farley

RickyHatton wrote: »

just the thought of the elite of our defence forces being stopped by local Chad police and having to hand over a camera and have it looked at and the possibility of some local police officers actually disarming and arresting our special forces. they should know by now that it is not allowed and it just looks so unprofessional. I am disappointed.

Maybe you should read the article again,



"Details of a second incident involving the peacekeepers and a camera also came to light.
Two Irish military police were on patrol on Wednesday morning when they decided to take a photograph of the main street of the town of Goz Beida, where the troops are based.
Shortly after 8.30am, a three-man patrol from the Chadian military police drove into the shopping area and were inadvertently photographed by the Irish troops.
The Chadians immediately jumped out of their patrol vehicle and demanded that the digital camera be handed over"




More to the point it can’t have been that tense stand off as one of the rangers managed to get a few photo shots in. Be they for personnel or intel purposes is the question, if they were a part of an intel report and got leaked then that puts an entirely different slant on it which is possibly why there is an internal investigation.

eroo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who did the irish miltary send over, soldiers or Amateur Photographers?

I like the way you don't use capitals for Irish but are more than happy to use them for amateur photographer..

concussion

RickyHatton wrote: »

just the thought of the elite of our defence forces being stopped by local Chad police and having to hand over a camera and have it looked at and the possibility of some local police officers actually disarming and arresting our special forces. they should know by now that it is not allowed and it just looks so unprofessional. I am disappointed.

Read the article again - this was completely separate from the ARW contact. Two Irish Military Police were confronted by 3 Chadian Military Police - the Chadian MP's were upset that either (A) the Irish MP's were taking photos of the town or (B) as the article suggests, they Irish MP's indadvertantly photographed them. The situation was resolved, no need to hype it and exaggerate the story by complaining how our elite troops could be disarmed by local plods!

Dinter

Any idea why they were out on such a long range patrol?

I'd say they'd be a fair distance from their base on an eight day patrol.

Are the Irish troops not supposed to guarding a refugee camp?

If they actually need to send soldiers to look for rebel troop buildups or to trace rebel movements then it seems quite possible that they could have blundered into an overwhelming force and possibly another Niemba.

Fratton Fred

eroo wrote: »

I like the way you don't use capitals for Irish but are more than happy to use them for amateur photographer..

sorry, crap keyboard.

you're not actually insulted by that are you?:rolleyes:

eroo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sorry, crap keyboard.

you're not actually insulted by that are you?:rolleyes:

Nope!

concussion

Dinter wrote: »

Any idea why they were out on such a long range patrol?

Dinter wrote: »

to send soldiers to look for rebel troop buildups or to trace rebel movements

Thats one of the reasons right there...


The ARW were there to protect the engineers who built the camp prior to the arrival of the main force. With that almost complete the regular troops are now taking over these patrols.

http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/news/2008/may/news27may.htm