Honda to build cheaper hybrid

VH

Honda says it expects to sell 200,000 of the 'entry level' hybrid cars every year.

In addition to the new accessible hybrid, Honda will also build a Jazz Hybrid model, and sporty CR-Z and Civic hybrids. It says it anticipates selling 500,000 hybrid units in total annually.

CR-Z:


RTE story here:
http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0521/honda.html

Full speech here:
http://world.honda.com/news/2008/c080521Mid-Year-CEO-Speech/

Honda certainly is planning some ambitious Hybrid stuff.

(How many posts before BMW gets mentioned)

towel401

its a bit ugly though. why can't they put this new tech in a regular non-ugly shaped car with the same general appearance as a late 90's saloon that won't get you laughed at while cruising down the street?

E92

Are you JHMEG posting by another name, VH? Your posts are rather similar in style, manner, tone and opinion to his to put it mildly. You also joined here in April, co-incidentally JHMEG also decided to leave this forum then.

VH

????

thats copied and pasted from RTE's website. Maybe thats where JHMEG works????

Green Hornet

VH wrote: »

(How many posts before BMW gets mentioned)

:D

E92

VH wrote: »

Honda certainly is planning some ambitious Hybrid stuff.

(How many posts before BMW gets mentioned)

VH wrote: »

thats copied and pasted from RTE's website.

I don't think so. But what you said in the first quote is an example of what I was referring to earlier.

Anyway, I wouldn't be getting too excited, after all Auto Express have recently found that a Civic IMA will only do 38 mpg in the real world, while diesel rivals comfortably beat it(and officially they are supposed to offer similar fuel consumption/emissions.


Can anyone tell me why, given that President and CEO of Honda Motor Co, Mr Fukui, said today in his announcement that "it is now time to shift from creating awareness of hybrid cars towards making them more popular around the world", are Honda so relentless in their pursuit in developing diesels(which includes being one of the first car makers to sell diesels in the US, a new 2.5 V6 diesel in addition to the current 2.2 4 pot diesel and offering the new i-DTEC 180 PS engine in the Civic Type-R) that are getting heaps of praise and also will be the only maker of a diesel that really will be cleaner than petrol(because no diesel is as clean as petrol is as of yet), when they start selling that i-DTEC engine in the US with the Ammonia Catalyst which is cleaner than the systems used by Merc, BMW etc who will be using AdBlue (basically piss amongst other things) which partly comes from Natural Gas if they're as serious about hybrids as they claim to be?

Green Hornet

E92 wrote: »

Anyway, I wouldn't be getting too excited, after all Auto Express have recently found that a Civic IMA will only do 38 mpg in the real world, while diesel rivals comfortably beat it(and officially they are supposed to offer similar fuel consumption/emissions.

True. Even the new petrol Civic 1.8 iVTEC gives 40+ in everyday real world use.

colm_mcm

I like it, it looks like the CRX

(but also the Mazda 323 Neo and Citroen C4)

E92

The only thing I would say about the Auto Express test is that they shouldn't have included a GS450h. I mean that had no hope, and indeed it would be completely unfair to complain about it versus other cars. I also think that AE is the motoring equivalent of the Oirish Sun, so I wouldn't be going parading what they say too much. They do tend to make plenty of c0ck ups, especially when it comes to their "exclusives"!

But officially that does 35.8 mpg to the Honda's 61.4 mpg, while in their test the Lexus did I think it was 27 mpg to the Honda's 38 mpg.

Now that just can't be right.

One of the more interesting things about Honda is that they seem to be building all small light(relatively speaking) cars when it comes to hybrids, and then for larger cars it's all diesel with Honda.

Thus far all the other makers of hybrids(excluding the Prius) tend to be taking the polar opposite view.

VH

That article doesnt make any sense. Focus 20 MPG off target, and its green. Prius 24 MPG off and its green. Civic 23 MPG off and its a gimmick?

One word for that: arsejob.

the_syco

Entry level = €16,000?

judas101

the_syco wrote: »

Entry level = €16,000?

thats really cheap considering the technology involved.

not to mention the money you'd save.

colm_mcm

the_syco wrote: »

Entry level = €16,000?

where does this figure come from, didn't read the whole speech, as I don't have 3 hours to spare!

E92

VH wrote: »

That article doesnt make any sense. Focus 20 MPG off target, and its green. Prius 24 MPG off and its green. Civic 23 MPG off and its a gimmick?

One word for that: arsejob.

I think you're deliberately missing the point because I singled out the Civic on this occasion. The point is that while the Civic is a gimmick, so is the Prius(arguably more of a one since nobody ever talks about the Civic IMA, it's always the Prius that the tree huger type talk about), and so are hybrids in general.

I don't have a problem with car makers introducing models that give a car company credit to be seen to be doing something about climate change, if anything the more car makers make the right noises perhaps the anti car brigade might funk off and leave us in peace, but the reason I don't like hybrids is very simple: I firmly believe that there are alternatives out there that can do most of what hybrids can do, but only at a fraction of the cost, and not just BMW's ED system, which is only one method, simple, cheap things like aerodynamic tweaks, low rolling resistance tyres etc as pioneered by Ford ECOnetic models, or by VAG with Bluemotion Polos, Golfs etc can all make great inroads on cutting emissions, and can get very close to hybrids, but they don't cost anything like what hybrids do for the car makers, or more importantly, for us as consumers.

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Are you JHMEG posting by another name, VH? Your posts are rather similar in style, manner, tone and opinion to his to put it mildly. You also joined here in April, co-incidentally JHMEG also decided to leave this forum then.

LOL! A post about Honda and hybrids and it must be JHMEG! Or could it just be that it was on the RTE news today and someone posted about it?

What has me most interested after reading this is that Honda said last year that there wouldn't be a Jazz hybrids. My mother and sister own 1.2's and both average about 50mpg, and as high as 64 or so mpg at a steady ~60mph. Could the Jazz finally be a 5-seater spiritual successor to the Insight?

VH wrote:

arsejob

+1. My wife's has a Civic IMA, which is not as sophisticated as the new Civic Hybrids will do 74mpg. The lowest I've ever seen it (after a few miles) is 48mpg. It's beyond me how they got so little. The engine in the new one is sweeter too, i-DSI *and* 3-stage VTEC, the new stage being power. First engine to have 3-stage since the D15B in the Jap VTI's.

E92 wrote:

are Honda so relentless in their pursuit in developing diesels

Are they? They've got one (which they're about to replace with a newer version) and they're bringing out a second one. OTOH today they announced 4 hybrid cars. I do agree that they do not seem to be going for hybrid powertrains in larger cars tho.

EDIT: Just spotted:

VH wrote:

(How many posts before BMW gets mentioned)

E92 wrote:

and not just BMW's ED system

I can see what VH means.

MCMLXXXIII

towel401 wrote: »

its a bit ugly though. why can't they put this new tech in a regular non-ugly shaped car with the same general appearance as a late 90's saloon that won't get you laughed at while cruising down the street?

Of course it's ugly. That's the whole appeal.
I wouldn't drive one, but it makes you aware. Aware of hybrid technology, aware of the brand, and aware of the new vehicles.
I live in the US where Toyota produces the Scion brand. There are adverts on the side of motorways that say:
"Downside: It's hietous.
Upside: It's hiteous."
And it has a picture of the xB next to it.

It's worked so far...
...mind you it's smaller than a Mini, and they rounded the edges for the new model. It was even more hiteous before

E92 wrote: »

...Anyway, I wouldn't be getting too excited, after all Auto Express have recently found that a Civic IMA will only do 38 mpg in the real world, while diesel rivals comfortably beat it(and officially they are supposed to offer similar fuel consumption/emissions.
...
Honda [is] so relentless in their pursuit in developing diesels(which includes being one of the first car makers to sell diesels in the US, a new 2.5 V6 diesel in addition to the current 2.2 4 pot diesel and offering the new i-DTEC 180 PS engine in the Civic Type-R) that are getting heaps of praise and also will be the only maker of a diesel that really will be cleaner than petrol(because no diesel is as clean as petrol is as of yet), when they start selling that i-DTEC engine in the US with the Ammonia Catalyst which is cleaner than the systems used by Merc, BMW etc who will be using AdBlue (basically piss amongst other things) which partly comes from Natural Gas if they're as serious about hybrids as they claim to be?

Because in the US diesel is about 60 cents to $1 more per gallon, and it still might not be clean enough to run in California (almost 15% of US market, and mostly where the Japanese sell their cars). And that's before their more stringent rules come into effect next year - along with 12 other states, possibly more.

judas101 wrote: »

thats really cheap considering the technology involved.

not to mention the money you'd save.

...another reason hybrids only make up about 2% of the entire US marketshare - people are already needing new batteries for about $3K each...which is much more expensive than paying for the petrol.

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

LOL! A post about Honda and hybrids and it must be JHMEG!

Oh so you have come back after a few weeks:D! I was going to ask the question earlier when VH was as relentless in defending Honda as you are in a different thread(and also fairly consistent at criticising BMW too), but when I saw the comment "(How many posts before BMW gets mentioned)" I decided then that now was as good a time as any to ask:D!

As for Honda and diesels, we'll we've the new i-DTEC(actually it's a revised version of the i-CDTi) 2.2 in 150 bhp guise, we'll also have the option of the same engine in 180 bhp format in the not too distant future, which will appear in the Civic Type-R at a later date, they've gone off developing a 2.5 V6(or is it a 3.0?) i-DTEC for Acuras and the US market(as a kind of better replacement for the V6 hybrid Accord in the US), and of course that fancy Ammonia catalyst thing as well to get it by the US regs, that's pretty relentless for a crowd that tell us they love hybrids!

JHMEG

E92

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

And that's before their more stringent rules come into effect next year - along with 12 other states, possibly more.

Does that mean that the current crop of diesels that are coming to the US later on this year and only compliant with current Californian law, and not next years laws?

Yet there are still people that try and tell me that diesel is greener(than petrol), when it never was, and still isn't. You gotta love the irony and inaccuracy people:D!

S.I.R

why cant anyone sell an affordable car ?? i know the guy who owns tom harris honda over on east wall and he pays 10 for the civic, 1500 vrt and well , thats it ! also 200 quid transport but f*** me theres a profit.... decent mark-up

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

Oh so you have come back after a few weeks

Unfortunately adverts.ie and boards are inextricably linked, so to use adverts I have to use boards. Don't worry tho, I'm not planning on staying any longer than I have to.

EDIT: 2 engines and a fancy cat doesn't make anyone relentless!

E92

Does anyone know if the new diesels making their way to the US this year pass next year's Californian emissions standards, or only this year's ones?

colm_mcm

S.I.R wrote: »

why cant anyone sell an affordable car ?? i know the guy who owns tom harris honda over on east wall and he pays 10 for the civic, 1500 vrt and well , thats it ! also 200 quid transport but f*** me theres a profit.... decent mark-up

Is he importing used Civics from the UK or something?


How much margin do you reckon the dealer has in a new 1.4 Civic hatch?

jayok

JHMEG wrote: »

What has me most interested after reading this is that Honda said last year that there wouldn't be a Jazz hybrids. My mother and sister own 1.2's and both average about 50mpg, and as high as 64 or so mpg at a steady ~60mph. Could the Jazz finally be a 5-seater spiritual successor to the Insight?

I think the Jazz will stand alone as a Hybrid

http://www.honda.ie/contentv3/index.cfm?fuseaction=page&pageID=14821&parentID=4115

Quote:

"The company will further accelerate hybrid sales by introducing a sporty hybrid based on its CR-Z, Civic Hybrid and the addition of a Jazz Hybrid model."

MCMLXXXIII

E92 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the new diesels making their way to the US this year pass next year's Californian emissions standards, or only this year's ones?

E92 wrote: »

Does that mean that the current crop of diesels that are coming to the US later on this year and only compliant with current Californian law, and not next years laws?

That's correct. The engines will be obsolete as of next year.

E92 wrote: »

Yet there are still people that try and tell me that diesel is greener(than petrol), when it never was, and still isn't. You gotta love the irony and inaccuracy people:D!

They say that they are cleaner, and the public, in it's infinate wisdom, assumes it's cleaner than petrol instead of asking "Cleaner than what?".
Well, the answer is: Cleaner than diesel was 20 years ago.

MCMLXXXIII

S.I.R wrote: »

why cant anyone sell an affordable car ?? ...

I love watching old game shows. The original Let's Make A Deal from the US is great. It aired in the 1960s and 70s. The reason I love it so much: the prices of the prizes are ridiculous. They would give away a new Corvette for $5K, or a Triumph that cost $4K. Then they would give away a 17 inch colour television that was $2K!

Technology gets cheaper as it gets older and more mass produced. The problem is - cars keep adding technology. That corvette was just a hunk of fast steel that looked great.
Now, cars have leather seats, airbags all over, heated and cooled cup holders, satellite radios (some have satellite television), traction control, electronic roll mitigation, automatic headlights, electric engines, GPS systems, anti-theft systems, etc...the list goes on.
THAT is what you are paying for.
Hopefully you won't use your airbags, you kids will survive without Disney in the back seat, there were no emissions standards in the 70s so the engine technology didn't need to be as advanced, and I rarely use the refrigerated cooler that's built into my dash. But it's there, and most of it is government mandated.
Even if you don't get the options, the car is designed to fit it, so you are paying a slightly higher price anyway.
Normal price for developing a car in the US: $750M-$1B. Germany is more, and Japan is only slightly less. Then add tax.

E92

MCMLXXXIII wrote: »

That's correct. The engines will be obsolete as of next year.

Brilliant!
What a waste of money it was developing those 50 state diesels:D:D!

Will they still be sold in states that don't use the Californian standards?

Have to say I had noticed that car makers had gone all quiet recently about "clean" diesels for the US.

Yet here diesel is marketed as something "green". we have ECOnetic diesel Fords, Bluemotion diesel VWs, Greenline diesel Skodas, Ecomotive diesel Seats, Ecoflex diesel Opels, e model diesel Audis(to be fair they have green petrol models as well) etc etc on the way here soon.

How ironic.

Makes the EU even more hypocritical than it already is about pollution.

Gegerty

JHMEG wrote: »

Scion pic..

I've driven one in the states. They've got some poke believe it or not!

About Hybrids, I'm considering one next year, will be a 2nd hand though so guess I'm looking at civic or prius. People forget they're a transition stage before fully electric....or did I just make that up? Diesel is NOT the way to go. We will all be dying from lung cancer and other related diseases. Less CO2 does not mean good to the environment when it is bad to the environment in every other possible way.

zilog_jones

Gegerty wrote: »

I've driven one in the states. They've got some poke believe it or not!

That's not surprising at all since they have 2.4 litre engines in the current US models! Compare this to the Japanese equivalent (Corolla Rumion) which is available with a 1.5 or 1.8. The Yaris is only available with in the US with a 1.5 - imagine if they tried that over here!

MCMLXXXIII

zilog_jones wrote: »

That's not surprising at all since they have 2.4 litre engines in the current US models! Compare this to the Japanese equivalent (Corolla Rumion) which is available with a 1.5 or 1.8. The Yaris is only available with in the US with a 1.5 - imagine if they tried that over here!

Eeh, it's got some poke...compared to most cars in the EU. I have been in the US since I was 12, and I have never owned a car with less than a 3.5L in it. Right now, I drive a 5.7L - and it gets better milage than my last 3.5! 2.4 is fine, but most people here drive bigger cars, with much bigger engines.

E92 wrote: »

Brilliant!
What a waste of money it was developing those 50 state diesels:D:D!

Will they still be sold in states that don't use the Californian standards?

Have to say I had noticed that car makers had gone all quiet recently about "clean" diesels for the US.

Yet here diesel is marketed as something "green". we have ECOnetic diesel Fords, Bluemotion diesel VWs, Greenline diesel Skodas, Ecomotive diesel Seats, Ecoflex diesel Opels, e model diesel Audis(to be fair they have green petrol models as well) etc etc on the way here soon.

How ironic.

Makes the EU even more hypocritical than it already is about pollution.

They will still be sold in the other 37 states, but work is already being done to make them cleaner so they can be sold in all 50 (California is over 10% of the US market).
The reason they are considered "greener" is because they get 30% better milage. People don't get that it pollutes more. Why do you think the companies have been quiet about diesels lately? The US is very far behind Europe when it comes to being green. This new emissions standards (if the Environmental Protection Agancy approves it) will be one of the world's strictest.
This action also shows how backwards the government works in the US. The Environmental Protection Agency told California the first time that they weren't allowed to set lower emissions standards. Now that other states want to join, we will see if the EPA is as successful in court as they were the last time. Also, most of the diesels are currently used on larger models. The Grand Cherokee is one of the smallest vehicles that offers a diesel for a reasonable price ($1500 extra) (most others are at least $3000 more - if widely available at all), and it uses a 3.0L diesel. Otherwise, it uses a 4.7L or a 5.7L (or for loads extra, a 6.1L) pertol engine. The 3.0L diesel doesn't save that much, and in the US, diesel is about a dollar more per gallon compared to "gasoline." The EU is just fine compared to a lot of other places.