Maruzen shotties and green gas

kinkstr

Ive read on a few sites that Maruzen shotguns, namely the m1100 arent fond of green gas/propane. Im not fond of believing what yanks say on airsoft forums as i reguard quite a few of them to be full of sh1t. Have any of you irish lads bought the full stock or the shorty version and used green or propane in them?

Shiva

kinkstr wrote: »

Ive read on a few sites that Maruzen shotguns, namely the m1100 arent fond of green gas/propane. Im not fond of believing what yanks say on airsoft forums as i reguard quite a few of them to be full of sh1t. Have any of you irish lads bought the full stock or the shorty version and used green or propane in them?

I've sold a few of both, and recommended green gas, and never heard of a problem. I've had one myself and never had a problem using green either.

Spetzcong

In my experience while the advice that yanks give regarding gas may be true in their sunnier climes Ireland is a different kettle o' fish, I'd be more inclined to listen to what the brits have to say given the similarity in our climates.

kinkstr

Nice one, thanks lads, am i right in thinking the shorty version only holds 3 shells?

NakedDex

Green Gas comes in two forms, summer and winter. The summer gas is the one most commonly carried by Irish retailers, chemically set for usage at ambient temperatures above 11C. The warmer a gas is, the more expansive it is, hence the greater pressure it produces. The corollory to this is it produces a higher power, hence the limit issue.
It's generally accepted that US summer temperatures are higher than our own, some of my friends over there wouldn't leave the fireside unless it was above 20C. As such you can take that, on an average warm day there, (25-30) gas pressure, and therefore energy exterted not only on the bb but also on the firing mechanism (where I assume the problem in question lies) will be considerably higher. For these reasons, 134a is often used in such climates as the increased temperature increases the power to acceptable levels.
However, in an extravagant natural weather variation of Newtons third law, where there is sun, sea and surf, there must also be wind, cold and ice. Therefore Winter type Green Gas is abundantly available in the US. If Winter gas (set for below approx 11C usage) is used in a warm climate, the power it exerts is significantly increased. Winter gas used in a very warm area can rival Top Gas for expansion rate and pressure-on-point values.

Given that the bottles usually look exactly alike for many brands and are denoted only by a colour coding in small print, it is possible to mix them up rather easily and use overly powerful gas in a unit that can't take it.
Fortunately, we do not have this issue here. Our climate is stable enough to use Summer type gas at any stage during the year (yes, even in winter, by comparison to many countries our winters are mild, not cold) without worrying about how it affects your GBB unit.
The fact/myth of GBB's being destroyed by using Green Gas is more attributable to the ambient operating temperature than the incorrect choice of gas.

[Personal thought]
This little factoid of the shotgun not liking green is probably a result of someone picking up a can of winter green and putting a half dozen quick fired rounds down the pipe when the outside temperature was about 30C. That would be akin to putting CO2 into a plastic pistol. It may have happened that way, or it may not, sounds plausible to me though and I can't think of another scenario that may have given rise to this information.

Edit: Oh, and given that I was messing with one today for the first time with Summer Green and gleefully rapid firing it for no other reason than to show off the ejection ability, I doubt you'll have problems here.
[/Personal thought]

The shorty does indeed take 3 shells. 4 if you rack one and load again.

kinkstr

Wow, nice post there Dex, thinks that all the info ill ever need on gas:)

NakedDex

Not a problem, hope it helped.

kinkstr

Yup it did help boss, i didnt take weather conditions into consideration when i was reading through the info from the yanks. I just didnt want to have to buy a different type of gas for a shotgun seen as all my gbb's run fine on green/propane. A friend had to replace all the o-rings in one of those mossberg m500's and i didnt want to have to go through the same if the gas was too much for the gun, i havent had the best luck with my airsofts lately so im looking for a trouble free one this time around.

Frank the Manc

kinkstr wrote: »

Yup it did help boss, i didnt take weather conditions into consideration when i was reading through the info from the yanks. I just didnt want to have to buy a different type of gas for a shotgun seen as all my gbb's run fine on green/propane. A friend had to replace all the o-rings in one of those mossberg m500's and i didnt want to have to go through the same if the gas was too much for the gun, i havent had the best luck with my airsofts lately so im looking for a trouble free one this time around.

dont buy another WE then and you shouldnt.
would it be safe to run the afforementioned guns on red gas during the winter then?

NakedDex

Red Gas and Top Gas are the same thing. The power levels it would produce would not only be unsuitable for most gas powered guns without upgrades, it would, potentially, put them over the 1J limit. Most gas powered guns here will produce close to the 1J mark on a warm day, Top/Red gas would produce sigificantly more.
To the best of my knowledge it's only used in gas sniper rifles and a handful of specialised gas rifles using a cartridge system. A number of revolver type pistols can also use Top/Red. Again, these are all above power limits when used with Top/Red but will function within the 1J limit when using Green.

Frank the Manc

im well aware of that, thats why i asked regarding winter time when very few gas guns will perform satisfactorily, and thats including NBB.

NakedDex

Oh I see, picked you up wrong. Red/Top would still be too powerful, even in winter here. There is Winter Green available (I don't know if the Irish retailers hold it in stock but I'm sure they'd get it in if you asked) which will boost your performance in the cold months to that which you'd expect in the warm months. Rule of thumb is 11C, below it use Winter gas, above it use Summer gas. If you stick to that rule, you'll get reasonably consistent (as consistent as is allowable by temp/humidity changes) power levels year round.

Beast ASI

Red gas is not top gas.

Red gas is more powerful.

NakedDex

Really? I read that they were different chemically but produced relatively similar power levels. Do you know roughly how much more powerful?

Stercus Accidit

Red gas is apparently freon gas, as used in air-con units in the US.

Frank the Manc

NakedDex wrote: »

Oh I see, picked you up wrong. Red/Top would still be too powerful, even in winter here. There is Winter Green available (I don't know if the Irish retailers hold it in stock but I'm sure they'd get it in if you asked) which will boost your performance in the cold months to that which you'd expect in the warm months. Rule of thumb is 11C, below it use Winter gas, above it use Summer gas. If you stick to that rule, you'll get reasonably consistent (as consistent as is allowable by temp/humidity changes) power levels year round.

ah now i see, wa under the impression that "winter gas" was just a marketing name for red gas, that clarifys the matter somewhat

Motosam wrote: »

Red gas is apparently freon gas, as used in air-con units in the US.

i though freon i.e. refrigerant was as "powerful" as 134a

Stercus Accidit

Frank the Manc wrote: »

i though freon i.e. refrigerant was as "powerful" as 134a

AFAIK

134a is duster gas
Green is Propane
Red is Freon

And they go up in power in that order, red is also known as winter gas.

NakedDex

Duster isn't 134a. Duster is merely air under a small amount of compression. It's got less power than 134a. Butane is more powerful than it, but less powerful than 134a.

Stercus Accidit

NakedDex wrote: »

Duster isn't 134a. Duster is merely air under a small amount of compression. It's got less power than 134a. Butane is more powerful than it, but less powerful than 134a.

I have definitely heard 134a is duster gas, ask KD, he mentioned it in his topic on gases on airsoft hacks.

Id imagine air would be uneconomical alone to store compressed in an aerosol canister for such a use, it doesn't liquify easily enough and would need a very tough container.

Edit: Tetrafluoroethane, duster gas is commonly accepted to be hfc134a.
Duster gas is also known as canned air but is not actually air so I imagine this is where you got that from.

NakedDex

It's a compressed air mix, not a straight compressed air. Hence the presence of a hydrocarbon. I'm not sure where 134a and duster being the same thing came from, duster has, as you mentioned, an ethane compound. 134a has a butane (or methane, I can't remember which of the two) compound which is also higher in value. Which is why duster gas isn't flammable, ethane levels in it are low enough to be oversaturated and smoothered by the nitrogen content. 134a, however is (as I proved a few days back) flammable due to a different hydrocarbon mix.
Also, I've tested all of these gases in a set of experiments I did over a year ago when a debate about gas started on ASI, duster produced lower energy levels than butane, which in turn produced lower levels than 134a. Summer Green was next, followed by propane and Winter Green. I didn't chance Red or Top in the pistol I was using despite it being an NBB.

Stercus Accidit

There are three different chemicals used in duster gas, perhaps hfc is one of these three, the duster gas you tested may have been a less powerful one.

difluoroethane trifluoroethane tetrafluoroethane

I imagine difluro would be more powerful, lighter molecule would allow quicker expansion(iirc), what was used in the duster gas you tested?

NakedDex

Well it was over a year ago when I did these so I don't exactly have them to hand. I go through several cans of duster gas a week from various brands so I'm sure I had all the basis covered.

I highly doubt the fluroene content of the gas differing by one or two atoms in either case would make a noticeable power level. I did the tests over the course of two weeks so I'm certain I used several brands and types, I know I definitely did tests with various brands of green, propane and 134a. The power levels always varied slightly but nothing signifcant enough to be noteworthy (with the exception of ICS Green versus HFC Green).

Stercus Accidit

tetrafluroethane is also known as hfc134a, just from wiki.
Edit: also according to "The Physical and Theoretical Chemistry Laboratory
Oxford University" its known as hfc134a, I never trust wiki.

Its interesting, fluorine has an atomic weight of 19, carbon 12 and as ethane has only one carbon and the hydrogens are so light having 1, 2 or 3 fluorine atoms has an appreciable effect on the molecular mass, and likely power.

Perhaps there are different standards in Japan, the US and Europe for duster gas, there may well be a lower pressure limit here, that could explain your series of results being lower.

By all accounts it would appear the hfc134a tetrafluroethane, duster gas is the hfc 134a we use in gbb's.
There being three types of gas used in duster gas though could explain your results.

gerrowadat

Dude, we can use Google ourselves.

Motosam wrote: »

tetrafluroethane is also known as hfc134a, just from wiki.
Edit: also according to "The Physical and Theoretical Chemistry Laboratory
Oxford University" its known as hfc134a, I never trust wiki.

Its interesting, fluorine has an atomic weight of 19, carbon 12 and as ethane has only one carbon and the hydrogens are so light having 1, 2 or 3 fluorine atoms has an appreciable effect on the molecular mass, and likely power.

Perhaps there are different standards in Japan, the US and Europe for duster gas, there may well be a lower pressure limit here, that could explain your series of results being lower.

By all accounts it would appear the hfc134a tetrafluroethane, duster gas is the hfc 134a we use in gbb's.
There being three types of gas used in duster gas though could explain your results.

Stercus Accidit

gerrowadat wrote: »

Dude, we can use Google ourselves.

Well done, shall I reply to someone next time saying, "google it".

Or read the information and post whats relevant?

Exactly.

NakedDex

Motosam wrote: »

By all accounts it would appear the hfc134a tetrafluroethane, duster gas is the hfc 134a we use in gbb's.
There being three types of gas used in duster gas though could explain your results.

So how come my P99 NBB does 170-185 fps with duster gas and 230-240 with 134a at the same temperature and pressure if they're the same?

Stercus Accidit

NakedDex wrote: »

So how come my P99 NBB does 170-185 fps with duster gas and 230-240 with 134a at the same temperature and pressure if they're the same?

Because I said there are three types used, its in the quote you used just there, I also said it is possible we in Europe use a lower pressure type than in the US or Japan.

This is a sensible possible explanation, if not you have proved alot of people out there wrong, and bring into question why airsoft hfc134a differs from tetrafluroethane hfc 134a.

Does it not make sense that we use one of the other two varients of duster gas here?

I believe it would explain your results if it is the case, and still mean tetrafluoroethane duster gas hfc134a would be the same as airsoft hfc134a, or at least as close as green gas and propane.


Edit: I'd like to know if KD came across this during his own research?

kdouglas

Intersting that, I have to admit, the research I did on gases at the time was purely based on an afternoon of googling and reading various airsoft forums. I haven't actually tried using either duster or hfc134a myself, the main purpose of the article was just to clarify the differences.

It is commonly said that hfc134a and duster are the same/similar though. Perhaps I need to do some more testing and post an update to my gas info.

Stercus Accidit

kdouglas wrote: »

Intersting that, I have to admit, the research I did on gases at the time was purely based on an afternoon of googling and reading various airsoft forums. I haven't actually tried using either duster or hfc134a myself, the main purpose of the article was just to clarify the differences.

It is commonly said that hfc134a and duster are the same/similar though. Perhaps I need to do some more testing and post an update to my gas info.

Its worth noting first there are three chemicals used for duster gas, one of these chemicals is known as hfc134a, I believe it is this one, that is the same to airsoft gas, with perhaps the other types being used here in duster gas meaning dex got different results.

Sure you can make it your latest blog post