Dublin wants autonomy and to keep its money

lostexpectation

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0516/1210889063345.html

this is like those south american provinces where the rich white elite live who are holding referendums to gain more autonomy and to not have to subsidize the poorer areas.

that new smiley is ugly

Victor

I was about to post this myself.

I think you are right when you say "this is like those south american provinces where the rich white elite live who are holding referendums to gain more autonomy and to not have to subsidize the poorer areas." - although I think you were suggesting that Dublin City was the rich area and I disagree.

While yes, collectively Dublin city is the greatest concentration of wealth in the country, the city council is stymied by a number of factors. Car ownership is lower in the city than surrounding council areas, yet it is the city's streets that are destroyed, physically, economically and socially by those commuting cars. Rates exemptions, waivers and inability to charge for certain services results in central government and social & private organisations profiting at the expense of the council. Despite having 20 times the population, Dublin City only has twice the number of senate votes as Leitrim.

As it stands, Dublin gets one of the lowest per capita contributions from the Local Government Fund and that should change.

mike65

As Dublin is split between 4 admins won't the other 3 scream blue murder?

Reasons why it won't happen

residents could face new environmental charges, increased planning costs and higher motor tax, while tourists could have to pay a hotel bed charge.

Mike

DadaKopf

You've got to see this statement by DCC as an opening salvo in the context of the local government reform process, which kicked the issues of funding reform to the Commission on Taxation, which is all taking place in Cowen's eyes within the overall context of the OECD Public Service Review. The whole system's a mess, as we all well know.

The fastest growing areas of Ireland also get less money than the slower growing ones. So, say Meath and Kildare get less money from the local government fund than Leitrim or Kerry. That's mad.

I think Dublin City Council are on to something. I'd really like to see the actual submission, their analysis etc.

It's also a little know fact that Ireland is obliged under the European Charter of Local Self-Government to allow local authorities the autonomy to raise their own taxes/revenues and to balance out inequalities between local authorities through equalisation grants.

But the government isn't allowing any of this.

increased planning costs

This is actually happening anyway. It's one of the few areas local authorities can raise money. So costs will be going up on certain types of application by between 300-700%.

Victor

DadaKopf wrote: »

It's also a little know fact that Ireland is obliged under the European Charter of Local Self-Government to allow local authorities the autonomy to raise their own taxes/revenues and to balance out inequalities between local authorities through equalisation grants.

There are equalisation grants - the local government fund. However, I think this is more a plaything of central government than a genuine means of balancing things. I understand that very large contributions from rates, e.g. from power stations, are averaged nationally. Otherwise only certain councils would gain from such rates, e.g. Clare has Moneypoint (the largest single power station in the country), but Galway currently has no power station (Tynagh will commence operation soon).

But the government isn't allowing any of this.

The EU and formerly the EC/EEC have actually been good for local government in Ireland which, prior to entry, had the most centralised government in the communities, both by virtue of the preponderence of central government interfence and the overbearing size of certain councils, in particular the then Dublin County Council. I understand the increased powers of local area committees came with EU encouragement. Hence, the North and West committees in Cork County Council have a certain autonomy in decision making across a wide range of topics, although service is deliveries by a single homogenous apparatus.

One set back is the HSE which, while it has a regional structure, at 100,000 employees is too centralised.

Potentially we need a substantial restructuring of local government areas, with regional councils with perhaps 400,000-1,000,000 residents deciding overall policy and local councils of 50,000-100,000 fine-tuning and implementing policy.

This is actually happening anyway. It's one of the few areas local authorities can raise money. So costs will be going up on certain types of application by between 300-700%.

I think they are referring to planning application fees, not development contributions.

lostexpectation

i think the dublin councils should be able to raise more local taxes but it shouldn't mean exorbatent increasing rates. there still needs to redistrubtion of wealth in local areas and across the country.

are the increase in serices taxes being met with lowering income tax, or are we just getting both.

also wicklow council and bray town council should be able to raise funs for the fire brigade or get it from gov revenue.

Victor

lostexpectation wrote: »

i think the dublin councils should be able to raise more local taxes but it shouldn't mean exorbatent increasing rates.

I think they actually don't want to raise rates - they want to diversify their income base. That said, Dublin City Council wants to expand services in certain areas, e.g. the city's roads have taken a pounding during the Celtic Tiger era and catch-up on repairs is needed.

are the increase in serices taxes being met with lowering income tax, or are we just getting both.

To a degree its an accounting procedure. At the moment, Motor Tax and the contribution from the central fund are the biggest parts of the Local Government Fund. This is largely controlled by central government and the council have to go begging every year. However, if say the LGF had a fixed formula (or even semi-fixed) then that money would go to the councils (all councils) as of right and they wouldn't need to go begging. A hotel bed tax is common in many destinations to provide tourist / event orientated services on a shared basis.

also wicklow council and bray town council should be able to raise funs for the fire brigade or get it from gov revenue.

They can do this already through rates. They simply choose not to have a full time service or to agree a contract with Dublin City Council to provide a service (Dublin City provides the fire service for the other 3 Dublin councils, aswell as much of their water and sewage service, among other things).

lostexpectation

well theres what the council has decided to do and then there's what's right

gurramok

Which means that its way overdue that Dublin should have an elected mayor London style to stick up for its citizens.
Its ain't con-incidence that most people cannot name the present directly unelected by people mayor at present.

lostexpectation

or anybody else on the council for that matter

Riddle101

Sounds like they want too much power to me. I mean they say they want a cut from the Corparate Tax, Stamp Duties and VAT and also to decide the costs for Government buildings like Schools. What would they do with this power raise School fees, stop people getting into the libary for free and so on, i say screw the Council, of course that might be because i'm all for rebellion against the system

gaf1983

These proposals to diversify the council's income seem quite sensible in my opinion. Does anybody know if other councils nationwide would like to bring in the same proposals? Or if the submissions are accepted by the Commission on Taxation will they be imposed nationally?

DadaKopf

Victor wrote: »

There are equalisation grants - the local government fund.

I said that. The equalisation grants, funded by motor tax, and distributed on the basis of the 'needs and resources' formula (which hasn't been updated since it was implemented) is not equalising. It's actually doing the opposite. And in any case, the motor tax fund does not make us comply with Article 9 of the European Charter.

The EU and formerly the EC/EEC have actually been good for local government in Ireland which, prior to entry, had the most centralised government in the communities

I know this. For example the European Charter on Local Self-Government has set European laws about devolution. And regional assemblies were established to draw down structural funds. Ireland was at the time the most centralised, and it still is. And it became moreso - the Local Government Act 2001 only got us back to where we were when we joined the EEC.

I think they are referring to planning application fees, not development contributions.

Yes, that's what I said, and what I believe the poster said: 'planning fees'. Development contributions are another matter. These are also set to decline rapidly in the new economic environment, and not in proportion to need. That's going to increase, so it's likely that the Indecon 2005 report's prediction of a day-to-day capital running cost deficit of €1.5 billion will be exceeded.

plodder

Surely, Dublin city rakes in a fortune from business rates, say compared to Leitrim. I would imagine when domestic rates were abolished, that completely pulled the rug from under rural counties like Leitrim. So, I think DCC are (probably) being a bit disingenuous, when they say they get less per capita from central govt.

Personally, I think the first step might be to make the present system a bit more transparent, so people can see how it works. Then we can talk about reforming it. Though I'm still sceptical about the whole notion of local taxes. It can only lead IMO, to better services in rich areas, and worse ones in poorer areas.

markpb

plodder wrote: »

Surely, Dublin city rakes in a fortune from business rates, say compared to Leitrim.

DCC also loses a huge amount of rates because so much of the central government is located in their district and, despite an agreement to cover part of it, they don't pay any rates. I think DCC estimated the shortfall last year at over €200m.

plodder

markpb wrote: »

DCC also loses a huge amount of rates because so much of the central government is located in their district and, despite an agreement to cover part of it, they don't pay any rates. I think DCC estimated the shortfall last year at over €200m.

Fair enough. So de-centralisation is good for Dublin then

Is it possible though to get complete summary accounts for all local authorities showing what they raise themselves, and what they get from central govt. in whatever different categories there are? It's diffcult to debate the issue meaningfully, without having all the information.

Victor

Local Authority Outturns 2005
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,14980,en.xls

DadaKopf

Though I'm still sceptical about the whole notion of local taxes. It can only lead IMO, to better services in rich areas, and worse ones in poorer areas.

I think local taxes that are fair and transparent are critical to local democracy. It's a historical fact that taxation increased demands by people for fairer and better treatment, which in turn led to the democracy we have now. A simple solution could be to reduce national income tax and create local income tax. Service charges, which I think are often regressive, would be charged only if subject to rigorous cost/benefit analysis and 'revenue neutrality', but basic public goods like water, sanitation etc. should be abolished. Commercial rates would also apply to businesses.

I agree that it cannot occur that less economically buoyant areas should get the crappy services. The differences in revenue-raising capacities between local authorities would continue to be equalised through non-earmarked government grants and special capital grants (as is the case now, but more autonomy to how its spent should be granted to local authorities). With local taxation, stronger local democracy would probably make this situation a lot better.

I can't see people going for local taxation, but equally people know it's the fairest solution.

However, all this, I think, requires a total re-think on local government structures. Abolish county councils and create Area Councils (smaller units) and strengthen Regional Assemblies to provide integrated cross-boundary services (also better and more equal revenue-raising capacity if based on the National Spatial Strategy).

plodder

Victor wrote: »

Local Authority Outturns 2005
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,14980,en.xls

Thanks. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there. DCC's annual rate is below the average for all LAs. And the average rate income per capita across all LAs is approx €260, whereas in Dublin city it's a whopping €520, which I think proves the point that Dublin city is raking it in.