Can revenue seize your car...

zzzzzzzz

This question arises out of a previous thread that was just closed.

Can revenue seize your car because VRT hasn't been paid on it if it is on private property (in your driveway)?

Surely not! Anyone know any better?

guil

not sure bout that but i know they can if ya owe them enough on tax from ur earnings

alias no.9

Yes they can. They don't need to knock on the door either.

biggus

Good question .. could somebody come up with the correct legal answer rather than opinions. offbeat maybe try citizen information.

zzzzzzzz

I mean if the car isn't being driven?

Also - what if you take the number plates off - they'd be none the wiser!

bandit197

As far as I know they cant sieze it unless you have been given 7 days to get it cleared and fail to do so.

zzzzzzzz

biggus wrote: »

Good question .. could somebody come up with the correct legal answer rather than opinions. offbeat maybe try citizen information.

Good man. thanks

Tails142

Customs can seize your car, not revenue - it would have to be on a public road too.

Cars with no reg plates on public roads are towed away.

craichoe

Customs have far more power than the gardai and can enter any premises to seize whatever goods that they have reasonable suspision is liable for tax.

Just because its on private property doesn't change this, its once the car is in the state, regardless of whether its on the road or not.

zzzzzzzz

Tails142 wrote: »

Cars with no reg plates on public roads are towed away.

Fair enough, so private property is ok?

Atomic Pineapple

craichoe wrote: »

Customs have far more power than the gardai and can enter any premises to seize whatever goods that they have reasonable suspision is liable for tax.

Just because its on private property doesn't change this, its once the car is in the state, regardless of whether its on the road or not.

yep, you'd want to have it garaged or out of sight

Atomic Pineapple

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

Fair enough, so private property is ok?

no, read craichoe's post

zzzzzzzz

draffodx wrote: »

no, read craichoe's post

I mean for having no number plates

Tails142

If you're keeping a car for driving on the track you wouldn't need to VRT it as far as I'm aware, so its only if you're using it for the public roads.

Now if they see a car with a yellow reg parked in your garden, customs are likely to question you about it, but as long as they dont have any reason to believe that it has been driven on public roads they have no grounds to seize it.

Obviously if you using the car on public roads get it VRTd but if its a banger that you're fixing up or a car you put on the back of a truck to bring to race tracks or for rallys, dont bother

craichoe

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

I mean for having no number plates

Think about that for a minute .. If it was that simple wouldn't car thieves just rip the number plates off and park it on private property.

craichoe

Tails142 wrote: »

If you're keeping a car for driving on the track you wouldn't need to VRT it as far as I'm aware, so its only if you're using it for the public roads.

Now if they see a car with a yellow reg parked in your garden, customs are likely to question you about it, but as long as they dont have any reason to believe that it has been driven on public roads they have no grounds to seize it.

Obviously if you using the car on public roads get it VRTd but if its a banger that you're fixing up or a car you put on the back of a truck to bring to race tracks or for rallys, dont bother

Nein, its once its in the state. Even if you buy a banger or scrapped car from the north your still liable for the VRT on the Open Market value.

zzzzzzzz

craichoe wrote: »

Think about that for a minute .. If it was that simple wouldn't car thieves just rip the number plates off and park it on private property.

Well if you go down that line of thinking then is putting a car cover over your car illegal?

cpoh1

craichoe wrote: »

Nein, its once its in the state. Even if you buy a banger or scrapped car from the north your still liable for the VRT on the Open Market value.

Thats simply not the case, I contacted the VRT office specifically in the past with the intention of bringing a car in from japan for track use only and was told that the car does not have to be registered in Ireland unless it is intended for use on public roads.

The 24 hour registration rule only applies to cars that are intended for road use.

FGR

Both Customs and Gardai utilise Section 140 of the Finance Act to detain unregistered vehicles and as such Customs Officials are just as restricted as Gardai when it comes to private property. You're fully entitled to have a foreign reg car parked up on your property and let it sit there and rot if needs be.

In order to detain your vehicle the one condition of that is that it must be in a public place. Why - Because VRT is the fee for the licence and authorisation to drive your vehicle on a public road in Ireland - it's not a tax on simply owning the vehicle for use on private lands. If it was the case then you'd be required to pay VRT on your Ride On Lawn Mower which is, after all, a Mechanically Propelled Vehicle.

If it was as simple as seeing it parked in a driveway then goodness knows that Customs
would have a field day at night time when all foreign registered cars are parked up and ready for the taking.

To answer the OP's question he shouldn't worry - the Gardai and Customs are not going to come knocking on the door with a tow truck in hand to take the vehicle away.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0007/sec0140.html refers.

It must be noted however that you are subject to VAT on any vehicle bought from outside of the EU - and although you would not be liable to VRT if the car is on private property; you are still subject to VAT regardless and can be prosecuted for not paying same.

Guy:Incognito

ForegoneReality wrote: »

In order to detain your vehicle the one condition of that is that it must be in a public place. Why - Because VRT is the fee for the licence and authorisation to drive your vehicle on a public road in Ireland - it's not a tax on simply owning the vehicle for use on private lands. If it was the case then you'd be required to pay VRT on your Ride On Lawn Mower which is, after all, a Mechanically Propelled Vehicle.
.

A Ride on lawnmower is not the same as they are not registered/taxed/insured.

cpoh1

Stekelly wrote: »

A Ride on lawnmower is not the same as they are not registered/taxed/insured.

A car that is not intended for road use doesnt have to be taxed, registered or insured either and thats the mans point! If they were they would be liable for VRT.

ninty9er

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Why - Because VRT is the fee for the licence and authorisation to drive your vehicle on a public road in Ireland - it's not a tax on simply owning the vehicle for use on private lands.

If you're an Irish resident then it is. You may not drive a vehicle that is not registered on public roads. However, a foreign registered vehicle in your driveway suggest that you intend to do so, the same way as you would not get away with claiming 50kg of cocaine wasn't held " with intent of sale or supply"

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

If you're an Irish resident then it is. You may not drive a vehicle that is not registered on public roads. However, a foreign registered vehicle in your driveway suggest that you intend to do so, the same way as you would not get away with claiming 50kg of cocaine wasn't held " with intent of sale or supply"

A vehicle on your driveway may "suggest" many things, but I'd like to believe that there are at least some honest people left who may have put it there exactly because they don't want to drive it and have no intention of doing so until it's legal.

Comparing a vehicle parked off the public road to illegal drugs is a bit rich.

(Not every Irish resident is a Fianna Failer ...so you don't have to automatically assume the worst of everyone )

gary the great

I thought you had to get a warning first?

Tipsy Mac

If they can seize a car from private property than VRT is an import tariff is it not? I was under the assumption it was a registration plate tax, if the person doesn't intend driving it on the public road than surely the don't need a plate . As the car is not driven on the road it should be classed the same as someone importing a case of wine.

astraboy

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

If they can seize a car from private property than VRT is an import tariff is it not? I was under the assumption it was a registration plate tax, if the person doesn't intend driving it on the public road than surely the don't need a plate . As the car is not driven on the road it should be classed the same as someone importing a case of wine.

Excellent excellent point! If you wish to have a car on your driveway, for parts, to trailer to the track for drifting, as a potential project car or just as a bloody garden ornament, thats your business. VRT is "not" an import tarrif so it can't be applied unless you are required to register the car.

@Peasent, Heh heh heh. Shar most FF supporters don't care about VRT, they are all builders driving commercial land cruisers(no VRT) and making a killing on section 50 apartments.

-Chris-

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

If they can seize a car from private property than VRT is an import tariff is it not? I was under the assumption it was a registration plate tax, if the person doesn't intend driving it on the public road than surely the don't need a plate . As the car is not driven on the road it should be classed the same as someone importing a case of wine.

It is a registration plate tax. To drive a car on public roads you need a valid registration plate.

If ALL cars needed VRT paid within 24 of importation then customs would be out seizing cars from motor dealers!!
To drive unreg'd cars we get trade plates. To export a car from us you can get ZZ plates to drive it to the boat. You can transport your unreg'd car to Mondello on the back of a transporter and you'll never be pulled over.

You pay Vehicle Registration Tax to put a reg on your car to drive it on public roads legally and so you can pay road tax annually. There are plenty of exemptions to one or both (diplomatic sales, zz plates, state vehicles, emergency vehicles).

FGR

ninty9er wrote: »

If you're an Irish resident then it is. You may not drive a vehicle that is not registered on public roads. However, a foreign registered vehicle in your driveway suggest that you intend to do so, the same way as you would not get away with claiming 50kg of cocaine wasn't held " with intent of sale or supply"

If the authorities are aware of there being 50Kg of Cocaine in your house then they'll apply for a Section 26 Warrant under the MDA 1977. Posession of controlled substances for sale and/or supply is ilegal without exception and draws very little comparison to Revenue related issues.

As mentioned above an MPV can legally remain unregistered once it's on private property. The VRT is for the plate to allow the car to be driven on a public road and nothing more. It's not a 'global permit' for private as well as public roadways. The only time an offence is committed is when the vehicle is brought onto a public road and hence Section 140 of the Finance Act is enacted. Much like Section 41 of the Road Traffic Act for Insurance related matters.

The only way I can describe it any differently is with Tax/Insurance and NCT related matters. You don't need to have any of those articles associated with your vehicle once it's on private property. Should people be prosecuted and have their cars seized from their homes simply because they do not have any of the above?

Esel

Tails142 wrote: »

Customs can seize your car, not revenue...

Eh, Customs are Revenue.

astraboy wrote: »

Excellent excellent point! If you wish to have a car on your driveway.... as a bloody garden argument, thats your business.

I take it you have a big garden, because you certainly like arguments!

astraboy

esel wrote: »

I take it you have a big garden, because you certainly like arguments!

Edited:o

Blitzkrieger

Broadly speaking the revenue can do whatever they like. I've heard of 'cloned' and other cars driving around on false plates (an Integra with the number plate of a scooter), and the revenue are within their rights to seize your car if they want. The burden of proof is on you to prove it is registered.

It's fairly unlikey if your car is on Irish plates though.......

As to seizing it from your driveway, legally it's supposed to be registered as soon as it enters the country, so yes. Again, it's fairly unlikely. If it's in use you'll come to the attention of the Gardai a lot sooner.

Steve

To clear this one up.....

The offence is 'possesing' or 'being in charge' of an unregistered vehicle. You could put it in a crate, deliver it to your garage and then encase it in concrete, you'd still be guilty.

Section 131 of the 1992 finance act says:

(4) A person shall not have in his possession or charge after the 1st day of January, 1993, an unregistered vehicle or a converted vehicle as respects which the prescribed particulars in relation to the conversion have not been declared to the Commissioners unless the person is an authorised person or the vehicle is the subject of an exemption under section 135 in force for the time being.

(section 135 is a temporary import exemption).

To answer the original question, section 139 lists the offences and includes:

(3) It shall be an offence under this subsection for a person, in respect of a vehicle in the State—

( a ) to be in possession of the vehicle if it is unregistered unless he is an authorised person or the vehicle is the subject of an exemption under section 135 for the time being in force and the vehicle is being used in accordance with any conditions, restrictions or limitations referred to in section 135,

and here's the clincher:

(4) Without prejudice to any other penalty to which he may be liable, any person guilty of an offence under subsection (3) shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty under the law relating to excise of £1,000.

(5) A vehicle in respect of which an offence under subsection (3) was committed shall be liable to forfeiture.

read it all here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0131.html#zza9y1992s131
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0139.html#zza9y1992s139

Run_to_da_hills

The Revenue commissioners have more powers and are far worse than the cops. They don't need warrents and can take a car off you at the side of the road.

Not too long ago a French student had his vintage VW Beetle removed by customs and excise because it had Fink plates on it for several years. The car was collected without his consent by a grab from a scrap truck; fortunately he got it back with extensive roof damage and sued the customs for a full restoration of the car. Apparently there is still a loophole that allows a foreign student to drive around on foreign plates indefinitally provided they are still registered as a student.

peasant

stevec wrote: »

To clear this one up.....

The offence is 'possesing' or 'being in charge' of an unregistered vehicle. You could put it in a crate, deliver it to your garage and then encase it in concrete, you'd still be guilty.

Section 131 of the 1992 finance act says:

(section 135 is a temporary import exemption).

To answer the original question, section 139 lists the offences and includes:


and here's the clincher:



read it all here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0131.html#zza9y1992s131
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0009/sec0139.html#zza9y1992s139

Thanks for that hard work, that makes it frighteningly clear that you have no chance really


One question though:

What about all those rallye and track cars on foreign plates that people "posess" and are "in control of" for years . Do they get a special exemption?

zzzzzzzz

Thanks for the help SteveC.

Although, section 135:

135.—A vehicle which is temporarily brought into the State may be exempted by the Commissioners from the requirement to be registered, in such manner and subject to such conditions, restrictions and limitations as the Minister may prescribe by regulations made by him under section 141 if the vehicle is—


( a ) brought into the State by a person established outside the State for his private or business use,


( b ) brought into the State solely for the purpose of a competition, exhibition, show, demonstration, or similar purpose and is not intended to be sold or offered for sale in the State and is intended to be taken out of the State on the fulfilment of such purpose, or


( c ) designed or specially adapted as professional equipment brought into the State by a person established outside the State for use exclusively by such person or under his personal supervision.

I imagine if it's in your garage you could say it's for show/exhibition. I know it's kind of clutching at straws but it is a loop hole... That also explains the track cars etc.

Esel

Garages/traders who are registered with Revenue have a TAN number which allows them to import vehicles for sale without paying VRT. This is the 'authorised person' mentioned in stevec's quotes above. The understanding is that the trader is responsible for ensuring that the vehicle is registered and the VRT paid before releasing it to the purchaser.

zzzzzzzz

What about ride-on lawn mowers? Which section differentiates?

EDIT: To answer my own question: 130

Tipsy Mac

So if you were setting up a motoring museum you would have to VRT all cars in your museum even though they would never be driven ever, seems quite pointless and simply cashing in.

Steve

peasant wrote: »

What about all those rallye and track cars on foreign plates that people "posess" and are "in control of" for years . Do they get a special exemption?

Covered in the section 135 exemption as aidan quoted.

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

I imagine if it's in your garage you could say it's for show/exhibition. I know it's kind of clutching at straws but it is a loop hole... That also explains the track cars etc.

Only as long as it won't be kept here - it's only exempt if it will be exported again after the show/event.

I suppose you could argue the point that there's no time limit in the clause but at that stage it's time to talk to a solicitor;)

peasant

Well, if only one thing, this excercise has put and end to the misnomer of vehicle REGISTRATION tax ...the mask has fallen . It was, is and always will be a wrongly named IMPORTATION tax.

Thanks Bertie :rolleyes:

Steve

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

So if you were setting up a motoring museum you would have to VRT all cars in your museum even though they would never be driven ever, seems quite pointless and simply cashing in.

I think the show/event clause covers it and they are exempt - not 100% sure though.

Steve

peasant wrote: »

Well, if only one thing, this excercise has put and end to the misnomer of vehicle REGISTRATION tax ...the mask has fallen . It was, is and always will be a wrongly named IMPORTATION tax.

Thanks Bertie :rolleyes:

What galled me was that when I looked it up, VRT was in the same section - ("excise duty") as beer, cigarettes, petrol and gaming machines.

Carbon tax me arse.:mad: