Attention: Those who live in the West!

Irish and Proud

To the people who live in counties Galway and Clare - before you decide on the Lisbon Referendum, you need to seek clarification on the status of the following road projects:

N6 Galway Outer Ring;
N18 Gort to Crusheen;
N18 Gort to Athenry;
M17 Tuam to Athenry;
N17 Tuam By-pass.

There are rumours (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054991628&page=3) that the above schemes are in doubt as a result of the worsening public financial situation. Understandable maybe, but the government has said nothing either way. To put foward a balanced viewpoint, there are two possibilities that come to mind:

1) The rumours are generated by people promoting a 'No' vote for the upcoming EU referendum in order to undermine the 'Yes' camp.

2) The Government (most parties are pushing for 'Yes' as usual!) are keeping things quiet until after the referendum - after all, Cowen has silenced any dissenting voices within the Fianna Fail party.

Whatever way, the people of Clare and Galway have the right to know where they stand in relation to their road projects - after all, they need to know what deal they'll get in light of a 'Yes' vote!

Fair is Fair!!!

ixtlan

Oh come on!!!!!!!!

You would advise people to make a yes/no decision based on whether road projects under the control of the Irish government are delayed or not?!

I could come up with zillion things in the world that might inconvenience me, but which are not affected by the Lisbon treaty. Why would I consider those?

Ix.

monkeyfudge

I want a back rub before I'll commit to a yes vote.

egan007

What have those Europeans ever done for us.

Irish and Proud

ixtlan wrote: »

Oh come on!!!!!!!!

You would advise people to make a yes/no decision based on whether road projects under the control of the Irish government are delayed or not?!

Oh! 'Come on' is right mate - regarding the above: Now what do you think???

ixtlan wrote: »

I could come up with zillion things in the world that might inconvenience me, but which are not affected by the Lisbon treaty. Why would I consider those?

Ix.

That is not the point! The point is that people may be asked to vote under false pretences which may leave them with a raw deal - especially with EU competition laws changing the economic environment such as the cessation of the Shannon stop-over - mind you, I think the Shannon stop-over had to go as it was hindering Ireland's aviation industry. That said, the West could be left to rot if they don't get the road infrastructure they need, while we on the East coast gain a huge advantage in infrastructural terms. I now heard that the Dublin Outer Orbital Motorway and Eastern By-pass are back on the agenda. Of course, the Metro North and Interconnector are also big priorities.

The government may have to be economical with the truth in order to avoid protest votes (there are such things you know - Ballymun voted against Maastrict in light of the problems there at the time) etc.

I have to go now, I'll be back though...

djpbarry

Irish and Proud wrote: »

To the people who live in counties Galway and Clare - before you decide on the Lisbon Referendum, you need to seek clarification on the status of the following road projects:
...
There are rumours (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054991628&page=3) that the above schemes are in doubt as a result of the worsening public financial situation. Understandable maybe, but the government has said nothing either way. To put foward a balanced viewpoint, there are two possibilities that come to mind:

Honestly, I have no clue how you've made the connection.

dresden8

ixtlan wrote: »

Oh come on!!!!!!!!

You would advise people to make a yes/no decision based on whether road projects under the control of the Irish government are delayed or not?!

I could come up with zillion things in the world that might inconvenience me, but which are not affected by the Lisbon treaty. Why would I consider those?

Ix.

Of course, all politics is connected. You give me what I want and I will give you my vote. That is exactly how the party whip works. I will compromise for the benefits of being in a party.

Do you know how a parliamentary democracy works.

SeanW

So ... you should vote No because you're not sure about the status of some road projects? It's a bit like the farmers threatening to campaign for a No vote if Peter Mandelson makes too many trade concessions at the WTO talks, which is something I've heard about.

If we vote No to a treaty the EU considers an important housekeeping job, thus vetoing it, for reasons that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the treaty, it would look justifiably bad for Ireland and IMO they would be well within their rights to go for a Treaty-lite sans-referendum.

For the record I'm not decided yet, but leaning towards Yes as I don't see anything objectionable in what I've read so far. If I vote No, it will be because of something objectionable in the treaty and nothing else.

Newaglish

If you plan to vote on an EU treaty based on the future of a road project in Tuam then I'm glad the government hasn't told you whether or not it's going ahead.

sink

If you have no objection to the treaty and the treaty has a positive effect on the EU. If you vote no for a completely unrelated reason won't that be like 'shooting yourself in the foot' so to speak?

WooPeeA

egan007 wrote: »

What have those Europeans ever done for us.

Have you seen that one?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lFyywfHbj3M

Irish and Proud

SeanW wrote: »

So ... you should vote No because you're not sure about the status of some road projects? It's a bit like the farmers threatening to campaign for a No vote if Peter Mandelson makes too many trade concessions at the WTO talks, which is something I've heard about.

I never said that people should vote no because of the status of road projects - what I'm saying is that people may vote no because of same, and whether they do or not, it is absolutely none of your business - in a democracy, people are quite entitled to vote whatever way for whatever reason mate! :mad: Also, if local projects happen to be a factor in deciding what way people vote, then they certainly have a right to know the status of such. If the government is keeping things secret before the referendum, then it is extremely dishonest and undemocratic of them. How dare they!!! :mad:

SeanW wrote: »

If we vote No to a treaty the EU considers an important housekeeping job, thus vetoing it, for reasons that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the treaty, it would look justifiably bad for Ireland and IMO they would be well within their rights to go for a Treaty-lite sans-referendum.

Who cares what the EU politicians think - who the hell cares??? :mad:
Anyway, they're a shower of power corrupts IMO!

SeanW wrote: »

For the record I'm not decided yet, but leaning towards Yes as I don't see anything objectionable in what I've read so far. If I vote No, it will be because of something objectionable in the treaty and nothing else.

I can give you something objectionable: The people of the EU are having what is effectively a constitution forced on them by their governments! Who do these politicians think they are by doing something of a constitutional nature above the heads of ordinary people. To add insult to injury, our government has decided to effectively gag any FF TD who says anything of dissent regarding Lisbon - very democratic isn't it! :rolleyes:

Just think about it - if the Lisbon treaty is so good for us ordinary people, then why are politicians trying to suppress people with views to the contrary. Also, on my way to work, I see many posters from IBEC promoting a 'Yes' vote - why are our employers so enthusiastic about Lisbon if it's so good for the ordinary people?

Regards!

kleefarr

[Rant]
Don't worry about those that live in the West!

The roads in this country, considering their position in EU, are a complete joke! The only place that they are anywhere half decent is in the big smoke.

Mickey Mouse Country.

What a farce.[/Rant]

Irish and Proud

Newaglish wrote: »

If you plan to vote on an EU treaty based on the future of a road project in Tuam then I'm glad the government hasn't told you whether or not it's going ahead.

I'm from the East as I said before :mad: - so road projects won't come into my decision on Lisbon - democracy for all EU citizens will though!

Even if I'm from the West and voted no in disgust at the way we've been treated in relation to road projects, then I'm perfectly entitled to do so and it would be absolutely none of your business. Who the hell do you think you are - especially in suggesting that the government would be right in withholding information from me, because of the way I might vote??? :mad:

IMO, it would seem that a little education on the principles of democracy might help to balance up your viewpoints - again, how dare you dismiss my right to know what the government is doing in this country! :mad:

Irish and Proud

djpbarry wrote: »

Honestly, I have no clue how you've made the connection.

If (and I say 'if') the government is withholding information on the status of Western projects, and there happens to be an upcoming EU referendum, then I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to join up the dots!

If the status of the 'said' projects is unchanged and therefore no cause for alarm, then I think the government will be quite happy to clarify the situation in light of serious rumours regarding such!

Regards!

Newaglish

I sincerely doubt the government are withholding information on some rural road project based on the fear that it will cause a massive uprising in the No to Lisbon campaign.

Maybe a cancelled road project would make people vote yes! To streamline the EU and save money to be spend on those bloody roads

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to join up the dots!

I'm not sure what it takes to join up the dots! I find this thread incredible!

djpbarry

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Even if I'm from the West and voted no in disgust at the way we've been treated in relation to road projects, then I'm perfectly entitled to do so...

Indeed you would be, but it would be very foolish to throw away a vote in such a manner. Voting 'no' just to get at the current government is pretty daft considering this particular government will be gone in a few years after the next general election. We are voting on what we consider to be best for Ireland and the EU, not what is best for the current government.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

If (and I say 'if') the government is withholding information on the status of Western projects, and there happens to be an upcoming EU referendum, then I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to join up the dots!

What dots?

SeanW

Of course, if anyone wants to vote against the Lisbon treaty on the basis of something completely unrelated, they have the right to do so. Anyone entitled may vote for anything they choose for any reason, this is of course is a fundamental right in a democracy. My view is that someone who does intends to do this, by voting for or against the treaty based on something completely unrelated to its texts, should not vote, because they're too immature.

@IrishAndProud:
I understand your concerns about other countries, i.e. France and Holland not having a vote this time around. However, since we will never know why they rejected it, it doesn't really add to the debate, nor does it answer my question. What I want to know from you (and the No camp in general) is what parts of the treaty itself do you find objectionable and why. Show me a clause in the treaty that would have negative reprocussions for Ireland or indeed all the people of Europe, and I'll vote against it. Fail to do convincingly, and I will not, or more likely vote for the Treaty.

Irish and Proud

SeanW wrote: »

Of course, if anyone wants to vote against the Lisbon treaty on the basis of something completely unrelated, they have the right to do so. Anyone entitled may vote for anything they choose for any reason, this is of course is a fundamental right in a democracy. My view is that someone who does intends to do this, by voting for or against the treaty based on something completely unrelated to its texts, should not vote, because they're too immature.

Firstly, I must put my hand up in that my last reply to you was a bit on the strong side, because the sharp tongued sections should not have been specifically directed at you. I read your post a second time and found that it wasn't quite so arrogant as I thought the first time. That said, I do disagree with what you're saying:

If we vote yes, open market policy is likely to become more widespread. Also, many economic aspects such as competition rules would be one of the items subject to EU exclusive competence (decisions made entirely at EU level). With this in mind, one has to consider that the West of Ireland has traditionally been the poor relation and had to rely on protectionism such as the old Shannon stopover rule. Now, I think such regional protectionism is an old thinking and had to be overhauled. However, peripheral areas such as the West still have specific needs and that includes major infrastructural investment such as the AWC route. This is to enhance regional economic competitiveness in the form of reduced industrial time loss and therefore costs, and this is extremely important in the context of more rigorous EU competition laws.

If projects such as the AWC do not go ahead, then in light of the above, increased EU involvement might not be in the best interest of the Western population. Therefore they need to know, and have a right to know, the status the funding allocated to such projects before they decide on the Lisbon Treaty.

That said, I have to be honest and not withhold information which I've just been reading. According to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055296891, PPP funding has been secured for the AWC and it looks as if the M17 might go ahead within the next 18 months. That would certainly put a few rays of sunlight on the M18 Gort to Crusheen, and M18 Gort to Athenry sections! We might also see an M20 from Cork to Limerick, although I would personally opt for an M20 Mitchelstown to Limerick project - not only would it be far shorter, but it would also replace sub-standard N24 Cahir to Limerick route. Now, I must get back on topic...

SeanW wrote: »

@IrishAndProud:
I understand your concerns about other countries, i.e. France and Holland not having a vote this time around. However, since we will never know why they rejected it, it doesn't really add to the debate, nor does it answer my question.

Why the French and Dutch rejected the EU Constitution bears no relevance at all, because it is none of our business. To me, the only thing that comes into the equation here is that the Dutch and French do not want an EU Constitution, and the Lisbon Treaty (effectively the same document rehashed according to many) would probably get the boot too. We just have to respect their decision wheter we like it or not - it is their democratic choice which we have no right to undermine!

SeanW wrote: »

What I want to know from you (and the No camp in general) is what parts of the treaty itself do you find objectionable and why. Show me a clause in the treaty that would have negative reprocussions for Ireland or indeed all the people of Europe, and I'll vote against it. Fail to do convincingly, and I will not, or more likely vote for the Treaty.

Now, that is fair enough!

TBH, I have to do more reading - but in general, there seems to be too many open ended clauses such as those on Ireland's neutrality. We as a nation have stated time after time that we do not want any involvement with military alliances, so what is the 'opt out' clause for. Now, surely the wording on Ireland's neutrality should be along the lines of:

Ireland will remain neutral indefinitely, unless her people decide otherwise under the provisions of the Irish Constitution.

The above would seem absolutely clear in stating that Ireland's neutrality would be entirely at the behest of the Irish people. On the same subject, what is also very concerning is that opponents to the treaty say that if the government decided to opt out of neutrality, they wouldn't have to refer to the people - now, I don't know myself, but seemingly, this would certainly require clarification!

Now, I've run out of time, so I'll have to get back to you on the Treay in general -

Regards!

SeanW

If we vote yes, open market policy is likely to become more widespread.

But where in the past, we have not had an "open market policy" it has proven to be to the detriment of most of Ireland. People rightly bashed the "Shannon stopover" but it was actually an improvement on a situation where airlines were not allowed to fly between Dublin and the U.S. at all. A situation so ludicrous that US Civil Aeronautics Board threatened to expel Aer Lingus from JFK Airport unless some American airlines were allowed to fly into Dublin, so, forced to comply with this demand while having to pander to the Shannon trade union mafia and an assortment of Western whingers, the "Stopover" arrangement was reached. There were other policies too, such as intentionally under-specifying Dublin Airport, with a runway limited to 2.637km, the shortest main airport main runway of any capital city in Europe, to force heavily laden cargo planes and the like to partially unload at Shannon which - not by accident - has a much longer runway.

But many such aircraft choose to do this instead at Manchester, who I hope appreciates all the business we've been sending them.

So clearly, any further avoidance of "open market policy" will clearly be to the detriment of all of Ireland.

If projects such as the AWC do not go ahead, then in light of the above, increased EU involvement might not be in the best interest of the Western population. Therefore they need to know, and have a right to know, the status the funding allocated to such projects before they decide on the Lisbon Treaty.

Fair enough, but I think the link between the two is - to say the least - a little bit tenuous.

Why the French and Dutch rejected the EU Constitution bears no relevance at all, because it is none of our business. To me, the only thing that comes into the equation here is that the Dutch and French do not want an EU Constitution, and the Lisbon Treaty (effectively the same document rehashed according to many) would probably get the boot too. We just have to respect their decision wheter we like it or not - it is their democratic choice which we have no right to undermine!

Yes, but the French in particular have since voted in a new government that had a completely different agenda. They clearly did not feel very strongly about the EU constitution or they would not have elected the Sarkozy-led government, or they would now be protesting like crazy - as alluded to somewhere else on these forums, the French will bring the country to its knees with strikes at the drop of a hat, so why are they not doing that if they oppose the Treaty? One possible explanation was that their No vote was a protest vote against the gov't of the day. But we will never know.

I don't know if the Dutch have had an election since then, but if so, again, the lack of a referendum there is really an internal matter as the people there voted for a government with that particular agenda.