Excommunication

bogwalrus

I was reading this new enough cork mag and there was this funny yet quite intellectual talk on why atheists should try to get excommunicated. I wish i brough the mag home,its called The Whipping Post and is kind of a pull the piss magazine/paper but this article was really informative and made me think that i probably should try and get excommunicated.

It was saying that the catholic church has records off all baptised children and people who do the communion and confirmation and that these records are used to show how many christians are in Ireland and other stuff i believe.

Who ever wrote it was saying that if people write to the church priest they were baptised in saying how they do not believe in catholocism and alot of anti church stuff (in a polite way) and demand that they be removed off any such registers, they will be excommuniucated. I believe once you are excommunicated you can no longer go near a church or get married in the eyes of god and a load of other things.

They even wrote the letter for you and put it at the end of the page to be cut out. ALl you had to do was put your name in and post it off. Brilliant i think=)

The writer was also saying that by doing this you are no longer tied to this horrible religion which has done so much bad in the fast and continues to dilude people etc.....you get the idea.

Just wondering if any of you have treid to get excommunicated? I imagine alot of you dont care but i feel its worth a talk in a forum. Personally i would like to be cause then i could be off their registers and not have anything to do with that religion ever again. Let them know that i disagree with their ideologies and philosophies (if you can call them that).

humanji

I wouldn't bother with it myself. The only real reason is in case I meet a girl who wants a church wedding, which would obviously harder if I officially left the church. And see no real benefits to me doing it. I've better things to be doing with my time, like bumming about Boards

Malari

Excommunication is something more like being told you were bold and sit on the naughty step until you're ready to say sorry to god.

I formally defected from the church, which is different in that is was my decision to leave.

Bduffman

I always had a different picture of excommunication in my mind. Like, you had to do something really extreme for it to happen. Like, crap on a religious relic or expose yourself to the pope. Wouldn't that be more fun?

aidan24326

Bduffman wrote: »

I always had a different picture of excommunication in my mind. Like, you had to do something really extreme for it to happen. Like, crap on a religious relic or expose yourself to the pope. Wouldn't that be more fun?

Excommunication afaik is more like being banished from the church in shame, not simply defecting.

bogwalrus

Malari wrote: »

Excommunication is something more like being told you were bold and sit on the naughty step until you're ready to say sorry to god.

I formally defected from the church, which is different in that is was my decision to leave.

But still in their eyes you are just a lost sheep where they are ready to embrace you when you make the decision to come back to them. Even up until your death bed.

When you are excommunicated they dont want you and you sure as hell dont want them. I feel it would upset them more though knowing that people would never want to come back to the church and putting a period at the end of your decision.

My mother always says it. "when you are older you will understand the importance of god and the reason for worshiping him". Its like, between the ages of 20 and 40 you dont have to believe in god as these are rebelious years in some way, but after those years you come to realise that you do need god etc and start worshiping again.

Hivemind187

I'm barred from the local holy-rosary church for threatening to spike the holy water with LSD. Does that count?

Zillah

No. It also makes you a little immature.

lostexpectation

yeah i think we'll have to find a bishop to kick up the arse

Pompey Magnus

lostexpectation wrote: »

yeah i think we'll have to find a bishop to kick up the arse

Does Des Bishop count, I'm up for it if he does.

bogwalrus

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I'm barred from the local holy-rosary church for threatening to spike the holy water with LSD. Does that count?

If you had been succesful you would have been helping the church out.

Why?

Because you would have 100 odd people coming out saying that jesus said mass to them and the holy spirit was giving communion.

Thus promoting the church.:)

Xhristy

This post has been deleted.

Malari

bogwalrus wrote: »

When you are excommunicated they dont want you and you sure as hell dont want them. I feel it would upset them more though knowing that people would never want to come back to the church and putting a period at the end of your decision.

I think it's the other way around. If you are excommunicated you can be pardoned. If you decide to remove yourself from the church records, they would not allow you to marry, be buried, etc in a church ceremony. It's more permanent in a way, because only you can make the decision to come back.

But it probably does have something to do with rebellion. I know when I was a teenager I felt more like offending the church than making any formal effort to remove myself from it.

bogwalrus

I think it is more than rebellious. SInce i believe the catholic religeon is a load of cuckoo nonsense it is very right for me to cut any tie whatsosever with them. I dont like being associated withe them via some book that says I am a catholic. A very powerful message to send would be for me to want to be excommunicated from their organisation. And if many people started to do it there would be a great realisation in the church and irish society. The church might grow up a bit and adapt more to current social ideologies.

Only recently i was at a christening and the priest was going on about the devil looking out for new born children and christening is the only way to protect them. Can you believe it!!! Some idiocracy the church is trying to nurture. I did get the laff of the year out of it though=)

fartislartbast

Here's a little info on Automatic Excommunication. This is related to having an abortion and I do warn you that the language used is likely to anger any free thinker (and for that matter scare the crap out of most catholics, but I guess that's the idea). I couldn't find another reason to be automatically excommunicated though.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0143.html

I'm doing a bit of research to have myself excommunicated purely for the fact that I stand outside the roman catholic church and don't wish them to indulge in the thought that I am just a lapsed catholic who can later be 'saved'. In a way it's more meaningful than the Blasphemy Challenge but it still doesn't mean much. Religious statistics come from the Census, not the Church so that arguement is bunk (unless you're a church reporting to the Vatican where you would probably use your own records!). I'm not ever going to have a church wedding and anyone willing to marry me would feel the same, else they wouldn't have gotten past the first few dates. I can't think of any other rational reasons for or against excommunication in my case.

I will follow up this post with the results of my research and hopefully with a nice little PDF letter so others can spread the good word!

More links:

Excommunication - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Who can/be excommunicate(d) - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5022.htm

Communication with excommunicated persons - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5023.htm (this one is more fun to read than the others)

God bless!

Dades

fartislartbast wrote: »

I will follow up this post with the results of my research and hopefully with a nice little PDF letter so others can spread the good word!

Do that, thanks.
Some people here would be interested to hear how you get on.

ShooterSF

I know its old but the church dont exactly change quickly Excommunication explained

Also if your excommunicated I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be allowed enter a church which could be awkward for family funerals weddings etc who do believe..

Gambler

ShooterSF wrote: »

I know its old but the church dont exactly change quickly Excommunication explained

Also if your excommunicated I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be allowed enter a church which could be awkward for family funerals weddings etc who do believe..

Hehe I'm fairly sure they don't ask for your christ fan club membership card on the door :P

I am fairly sure that excommunication is different to asking to have yourself removed for the baptismal register for religious reasons and I don't think it has the same consequences with regards to not being allowed go into churches etc.

Zillah

How awesome would it be to be walking along with someone and to have to stop and explain that you can go no further as you are unable to enter holy ground.

ShooterSF

Zillah wrote: »

How awesome would it be to be walking along with someone and to have to stop and explain that you can go no further as you are unable to enter holy ground.

Actually that would be pretty cool

Edit: Oh and the church still sees you as a catholic just one doomed to hell. You never can get out!!!

Mena

ShooterSF wrote: »

I know its old but the church dont exactly change quickly Excommunication explained

Also if your excommunicated I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be allowed enter a church which could be awkward for family funerals weddings etc who do believe..

Now I can count the number of times I've been in a Church on one hand, but tell me, do they actually have bouncers there checking "communication" status on people entering? :P

oeb

Excommunicated catholics pretty much are only barred from getting their holy jesus waffles wafers, and telling old lies giving holy readings at a service.

An excommunicated person can still go to mass, can still attend funerals etc.

There used to be two types of excommunication, one type was as above, and the other type pretty much ment all catholics were supposed to avoid you and pretend you did not exist. This was changed in 1983 by cannon law.

Excommunication can be forgiven and repealed at any stage by your local bishop (or if the crime was serious enough, by the pope).

Unfortuantly, sending a letter to the local parish priest telling him you don't like his fairy tales anymore is unlikely to get you excommunicated (He does not have the power anyway). I think you may actually have to resort to kicking a bishop (or the pope) up the arse. Or hold a holy biscut hostage like PZ Myers.

According to wikipedia, the following offences give automatic excommunication (Under Cannon Law)

1. The formal abondonment of your religion (So aparently telling a priest you don't want to be in his club will get you sent packing after all!), telling people lies about the club or starting your own skyfairy club.
2. Throwing away or otherwise keeping holy biscuts for 'sacrilegious purpose'
3. Beating up the Pope
4. Being a priest who tells another priest that he is forgiven for getting laid
5. Being a bishop who makes someone else a bishop without asking first.
6. Taking a confession and then selling the sordid secrets to the Star newspaper (or telling anyone)
7. Getting an abortion (or assisting anyone)
8. Helping anyone do the above things.

Papal Decree added the following.

1. Being an undercover reporter for the Star and telling everyone what is happening at a Papal election (or bribing the judges)
2. Being a woman who gets ordained (or the priest who ordains her)
3. Kicking a bishop up the arse
4. Absolving people of their sins (or giving out holy biscuts without permission)
5. Blaming easy women for being marriage wreckers when they come to confession to tell your poor abstaining self about all the married men they are seducing
6. Trying to get married (if you are a priest)

I hope no one minds, but I took the liberty of changing the wording to make them a bit more intresting and relevent to todays society. (But they are apparently all real)

fartislartbast

ShooterSF wrote: »

Also if your excommunicated I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be allowed enter a church which could be awkward for family funerals weddings etc who do believe..

I have never seen a single bouncer at a church, nor have I seen a board of photos titled "Do Not Admit These Heathens" I do thank you for your link (from 1998), it does counter my stance somewhat but in the spirit of science I will carry on in the hope of learning something!

My main questions are the how?, why? and what then? The only way to learn the answers is to go and do it. Not the most intelligent science but look up the history of Lidocaine on wikipedia and you'll get my drift. I'm also very interested in the Irish perspective on this topic.

My hypothesis is that it will make absolutely no difference to anything in my life or death. I am already outside the church and don't intend to ever step inside again. The only case where I can imagine it could pose a problem is in where I am buried or where to put my urn. In a sense it shouldn't matter to me, but I'm eager to find out the implications.

To oeb: I applaud your humour, however I still maintain that there is value in finding out from an Irish perspective in the current climate, Wikipedia or not!

I do want to make a few things clear from the outset. This is an honest endeavour. I do not intend to offend anyone or disturb their worship. I will conduct myself with the dignity and respect that I expect in return. I am not a smart-arse and will do everything in my power to avoid being taken for one.

Finally, I am doing this because I would rather not live my life as a secular/atheist/apatheist free-thinker only to have the theistic doctrine that I so oppose being read out at my funeral by dint of some very loosely held tradition of my family. To me that would be (post-hostumously) hypocritical.

fartislartbast

A quick addendum to the previous post:

I will be starting my journey in the church where I was christened, had my first communion and my confirmation. In fact, the only church I have ever attended and on who's walls I sat, pondered and concluded that I was at the very least an agnostic. I think that's the best place to begin.

oeb

fartislartbast wrote: »

I have never seen a single bouncer at a church, nor have I seen a board of photos titled "Do Not Admit These Heathens" I do thank you for your link (from 1998), it does counter my stance somewhat but in the spirit of science I will carry on in the hope of learning something!

My main questions are the how?, why? and what then? The only way to learn the answers is to go and do it. Not the most intelligent science but look up the history of Lidocaine on wikipedia and you'll get my drift. I'm also very interested in the Irish perspective on this topic.

My hypothesis is that it will make absolutely no difference to anything in my life or death. I am already outside the church and don't intend to ever step inside again. The only case where I can imagine it could pose a problem is in where I am buried or where to put my urn. In a sense it shouldn't matter to me, but I'm eager to find out the implications.

To oeb: I applaud your humour, however I still maintain that there is value in finding out from an Irish perspective in the current climate, Wikipedia or not!

I do want to make a few things clear from the outset. This is an honest endeavour. I do not intend to offend anyone or disturb their worship. I will conduct myself with the dignity and respect that I expect in return. I am not a smart-arse and will do everything in my power to avoid being taken for one.

Finally, I am doing this because I would rather not live my life as a secular/atheist/apatheist free-thinker only to have the theistic doctrine that I so oppose being read out at my funeral by dint of some very loosely held tradition of my family. To me that would be (post-hostumously) hypocritical.

I don't think you will mind. You will be dead. If your relations feel that a religious ceremony will help them get over their grief then leave them at it. You really won't be in any position to care.

If you really wanted to avoid that, the easiest solution is probably to will your body to a university or something for medical science.

According to what is listed above (They are all reasons to be excommunicated, I just re-worded them to amuse myself) the simplest way is to formally renounce your faith.

Keep in mind that being excommunicated from a church in no way prevents you from having a religious funeral etc, as I said, it just stops you from reviewing communion and preforming readings. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that one of the key parts to modern day RC faith is that their god forgives everyone.

oeb

fartislartbast wrote: »

A quick addendum to the previous post:

I will be starting my journey in the church where I was christened, had my first communion and my confirmation. In fact, the only church I have ever attended and on who's walls I sat, pondered and concluded that I was at the very least an agnostic. I think that's the best place to begin.

I wonder what would happen if you contacted the RC church in Ireland and demanded a copy of all the information they have on file for you (Which you are entitled to do)

fartislartbast

oeb, In respose to the most recent, I don't actually think they have much on file beyond ceremony records. I may stand corrected though.

As for the previous post, I guess we're into the wider issue of grief. I won't harp on about it but as brief as I can make it... I care about the people left behind after I die, as I care about them right now, but I don't think the religiousity of the ceremony has any bearing on the grieving process. It's akin to saying there are no morals without God. In fact, a secular ceremony may help as I (before the fact) and my loved ones (after the fact) can decide on a ceremony that will fit their needs without the rules placed on the ceremony by any church (for example, the churches attitude towards proscribing choice of music). They can say goodbye without hearing about dubious entities or otherworldly places and focus on what matters. For those that know me, and who else would be at my funeral, it would make more sense.

Another brief bit of background: I was angered at my sisters wedding when the priest spoke about original sin. To me this tarnished the ceremony a little. How dare he call my sister a sinner on her wedding day! I don't believe I'm alone, though I kept it to myself, and I'd hate to inflict that on anyone else.

heh... was that even brief at all?!

MrDaithi

I thought about what it would take to be excommunicated myself.
Then I thought some more (ouch)... and if I demand to be excommunicated, am I not acknowledging that that 'catholic voodoo stuff' is real? If prefer to totally ignore that fact and not give them any 'credentials' at all because.

But if it's just about them having a list with my name on it, especially a computer list, then yes please remove me from it because I didn't agree to be on it in the first place, and there are laws that give me the right to know about what information they have on me, and get it removed.

So I guess I will demand to know if I'm listed and to be removed, but I'm not asking for an excommunication because it means nothing as the religion thing is not real.

oeb

While we are at it, I think it may be worth mentioning that it is highly unlikely that the RC church in Ireland get's it's figures from baptisms, communions etc. Especially because the national census does such a better job, and one that could be used to contradict anything that the church says anyway.

oeb

While I am at it, I'm going to double post.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1129/breaking44.htm

lostexpectation

excummincation is overated try this guide to defction
http://www.freewebs.com/dublinstreams/images/defectleaflet.gif

apoch632

[QUOTE=oeb;58048677
[*]Throwing away or otherwise keeping holy biscuts for 'sacrilegious purpose'
[/QUOTE]

Sweet. I done that as a joke at my sisters wedding. Saves me the hassle of going through any formal motions

ChocolateSauce

Had I been baptised, I wouldn't bother unless it was some kind of drive by atheists everywhere to show that not every Catholic is in fact Catholic.

fitz0

Im seriously considering defecting. I really don't like the idea that the RC church thinks of me as one of their "flock."

I'm a bit worried about the effects though. The burial thing might really upset my parents. As much as I want to emigrate I always thought Id be buried at home, not for any religious reasons, merely sentimental ones. Is a non-religious burial allowed in a church graveyard?

On a positive note, this would convince my family that I am genuinely serious about this whole atheism thing, Im sure they don't really believe me at the minute.

Spyral

for all the evil it has done in the 'fast' the RCC has done a lot of medicine and science, although its own variation fo medicine and science.

lostexpectation

fitz0 wrote: »

Im seriously considering defecting. I really don't like the idea that the RC church thinks of me as one of their "flock."

I'm a bit worried about the effects though. The burial thing might really upset my parents. As much as I want to emigrate I always thought Id be buried at home, not for any religious reasons, merely sentimental ones. Is a non-religious burial allowed in a church graveyard?

are you planning to die before your parents?

fitz0

lostexpectation wrote: »

are you planning to die before your parents?

Not really but theres only church graveyards in Monaghan as far as I know.

Zamboni

oeb wrote: »

While I am at it, I'm going to double post.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1129/breaking44.htm

Patrick Logue from the Times should check his figures

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm