Happy Birthday Israel!

wolfsbane

Remembering the afflictions that brought the modern state of Israel into existence.

Praying for her people, that they will be able to find a time of peace & justise with their neighbours.

Most importantly, praying that they will come to see their lostness and need of a Saviour - the Messiah sent of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

estebancambias

Personally I despise the state of Israel.

wolfsbane

estebancambias wrote: »

Personally I despise the state of Israel.

OK - but what about the Israelis? What would you suggest should have been done with them after WW2? What should be done with them now?

branie

Shalom, Israel:)

robindch

wolfsbane wrote: »

What should be done with them now?

Ask them to stop murdering people and start listening to the UN?

the_new_mr

Second that.

marco_polo

wolfsbane wrote: »

OK - but what about the Israelis? What would you suggest should have been done with them after WW2? What should be done with them now?

Staying within the boundaries set for the state of Israel after WW2 would have been a good start. There was absolutely nothing wrong in the creation of the state of Israel, but their actions in over the past few decades make it a little hard to justify celebrating their birthday.

BJC

wolfsbane wrote: »

Most importantly, praying that they will come to see their lostness and need of a Saviour - the Messiah sent of God, Jesus of Nazareth.

You'd think more economic stability or an improvment in their current state of public welfare would be more important than finding Jesus under the bed...

iUseVi

robindch wrote: »

Ask them to stop murdering people and start listening to the UN?

+1

PDN

As Christians we are encouraged to pray for the peace of Israel. Such prayer should not amount to an endorsement of everything the state of Israel does.

I believe prayer for the peace of Israel should include us praying for Israel to deal with their neighbours justly and humanely, as well as protection against terrorist attacks.

I also pray for the Israelis to discover Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

wolfsbane

robindch wrote: »

Ask them to stop murdering people and start listening to the UN?

OK, that's fair enough - just asking them to restrict their military actions to combatants, and to examine ways of resolving their dispute with the Arabs.

Glad to see you don't want them thrown out of Israel/murdered.

wolfsbane

marco_polo wrote: »

Staying within the boundaries set for the state of Israel after WW2 would have been a good start. There was absolutely nothing wrong in the creation of the state of Israel, but their actions in over the past few decades make it a little hard to justify celebrating their birthday.

Do you not think the recurrent attacks on them led to them expanding out from their small enclave in an effort at self-defense? Seems to me both sides contributed to what's happened over the past decades. No use blaming one, for each has their valid complaints.

To those who want Israel to solve the conflict I ask, What solution do you propose?

So I feel free to wish Israel a happy birthday, as I do many an individual whose life is not perfect but who has come through severe traumas.

wolfsbane

BJC wrote: »

You'd think more economic stability or an improvment in their current state of public welfare would be more important than finding Jesus under the bed...

The wealthy and healthy will soon die on that bed, so finding Jesus is the issue of life.
Matthew 6:31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

redstar

PDN wrote: »

As Christians we are encouraged to pray for the peace of Israel. Such prayer should not amount to an endorsement of everything the state of Israel does.

I believe prayer for the peace of Israel should include us praying for Israel to deal with their neighbours justly and humanely, as well as protection against terrorist attacks.

I also pray for the Israelis to discover Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Presumeably you also pray for the displaced Palestinians as well, who live in camps while Israelis live in nice houses on stolen land ? And surely the Palestinians need a Saviour more than the Israelis ?

pebblesjm

+1 previous poster!!

Shame on the 'west' for contributoing and encouraging this behaviour.

Isreal is just a puppet for the US in the Middle East, it's their ears, eyes and nose there!!:rolleyes:

wolfsbane

redstar wrote: »

Presumeably you also pray for the displaced Palestinians as well, who live in camps while Israelis live in nice houses on stolen land ? And surely the Palestinians need a Saviour more than the Israelis ?

I certainly do.

And, no, the Israelis and Palestinians have exactly the same need of a Saviour.

wolfsbane

pebblesjm wrote: »

+1 previous poster!!

Shame on the 'west' for contributoing and encouraging this behaviour.

Isreal is just a puppet for the US in the Middle East, it's their ears, eyes and nose there!!:rolleyes:

I'm no defender of the West and its material god. But let me again ask you, What would you have the Israelis do, or what would you do to them? What is your solution to the Israel/Palestine problem?

redstar

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm no defender of the West and its material god. But let me again ask you, What would you have the Israelis do, or what would you do to them? What is your solution to the Israel/Palestine problem?

Surely this is at best a rhetorical question ?
If the UN, Israel, Palestinians, Arab states, the US, Europe cannot yet come up with a solution that would work then I hardly think anyone here could. (Although they could probably get a few pointers from Paisley and Adams )

Calling for the destruction of either side is certainly not a solution. The fact is that they are there, and have to live side-by-side.
For a start, though, Israel needs to create conditions for the Palestinians in which the extremists (Hamas etc) are isolated. Economic despair, isolation, poverty and hunger are breeding grounds for violence. Israeli policies to date have done nothing to alleviate those conditions.

PDN

redstar wrote: »

Presumeably you also pray for the displaced Palestinians as well, who live in camps while Israelis live in nice houses on stolen land ? And surely the Palestinians need a Saviour more than the Israelis ?

You presume correctly. I do indeed pray for the Palestinians. Also, many of the Palestinians have discovered Jesus as their Saviour, but life is tough for them. They are hated by both the Israelis and the Palestinian Muslims.

I don't think Palestinians need a Saviour more than the Israelis, both are equally in need of salvation.

BrianCalgary

redstar wrote: »

Calling for the destruction of either side is certainly not a solution. The fact is that they are there, and have to live side-by-side.
For a start, though, Israel needs to create conditions for the Palestinians in which the extremists (Hamas etc) are isolated. Economic despair, isolation, poverty and hunger are breeding grounds for violence. Israeli policies to date have done nothing to alleviate those conditions.

The Arab states whose stated purpose is to wipe Israel off the face of the map are present and Israel doesn't wish to wipe the Arab states out, just to be protected against terrorist groups.

So Israel exists with neighbours that want them destroyed. Israel attempts to protect themselves from those that want them destroyed, and are vilified for doing so?

Húrin

BrianCalgary wrote: »

So Israel exists with neighbours that want them destroyed. Israel attempts to protect themselves from those that want them destroyed, and are vilified for doing so?

The problem is not that they defend themselves, it is how they do it, and you know that.

Tim_Murphy

So Israel exists with neighbours that want them destroyed. Israel attempts to protect themselves from those that want them destroyed, and are vilified for doing so?

That's an every-so-slightly simplistic way of looking at it I'm afraid.

BrianCalgary

Húrin wrote: »

The problem is not that they defend themselves, it is how they do it, and you know that.

I do. I just dont think anyone else around here understood the position that Israel is in.

A small nation that has every right to exist, according to the UN, and a group of neighbours who are not interested in peace but in wiping Israel off the face of the earth.

What would you do?

robindch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I just dont think anyone else around here understood the position that Israel is in.

Are you aware of the history of Israel and the region generally?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote: »

Are you aware of the history of Israel and the region generally?

Some. But not all. Unforunately all the info one gets nowadays is always tainted either pro- or anti-Israeli.

As any long drawn out conflict it is pretty easy to lay blame on the other side by pointing out an atrocity. Atrocities are easy to dig up when you have auch a conflict.

I was born into an Irish protestant household. My Dad from NI my Mom from Dublin. The news reports we got throughout the 70's was pro-British and painted all NI Rc's as bloodthirsty terrorists.

Imagine my surprise when I met my wife who was born and raised RC in Derry, and heard the other side of the story.

The point Im making here robin is that the conflict in the Middle East involves many nations and many conflicts that have taken place since 1948. To paint Israel as a heartless agressor and Palestinians as poor defenceless lambs is wrong. (I'm not accusing you of this, one of the reasons why I enjoy face-to-face discussions more) As is to paint Israel as a poor little country getting blown up by terrorists is also wrong.

Both sides have some explaining to do.

As a side note what I have discovered on these boards over the years is that those educated in Ireland have certainly been taught a heck of a lot more about world affairs as we do in our education system here in Canada. Our social and history classes were rather limited to Canada, US and Britain. Even then it is regional, growing up in Ontario we were limited to that particular region of Canada and learned nothing of the growth of Western Canada. Since moving to the west it has been great learning about the peoples here and there heritage.

Anyway I rant and digress.:cool:

Tim_Murphy

As a side note what I have discovered on these boards over the years is that those educated in Ireland have certainly been taught a heck of a lot more about world affairs as we do in our education system here in Canada.

I met and travelled with some Israeli girls a few years ago in South America. They made us draw a map to show us where Ireland was. They had no idea where it, or a lot of other European countries were. :eek: In fairness they did know more about automatic weapons than I did so I guess it all balances out.

wolfsbane

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Some. But not all. Unforunately all the info one gets nowadays is always tainted either pro- or anti-Israeli.

As any long drawn out conflict it is pretty easy to lay blame on the other side by pointing out an atrocity. Atrocities are easy to dig up when you have auch a conflict.

I was born into an Irish protestant household. My Dad from NI my Mom from Dublin. The news reports we got throughout the 70's was pro-British and painted all NI Rc's as bloodthirsty terrorists.

Imagine my surprise when I met my wife who was born and raised RC in Derry, and heard the other side of the story.

The point Im making here robin is that the conflict in the Middle East involves many nations and many conflicts that have taken place since 1948. To paint Israel as a heartless agressor and Palestinians as poor defenceless lambs is wrong. (I'm not accusing you of this, one of the reasons why I enjoy face-to-face discussions more) As is to paint Israel as a poor little country getting blown up by terrorists is also wrong.

Both sides have some explaining to do.

As a side note what I have discovered on these boards over the years is that those educated in Ireland have certainly been taught a heck of a lot more about world affairs as we do in our education system here in Canada. Our social and history classes were rather limited to Canada, US and Britain. Even then it is regional, growing up in Ontario we were limited to that particular region of Canada and learned nothing of the growth of Western Canada. Since moving to the west it has been great learning about the peoples here and there heritage.

Anyway I rant and digress.:cool:

Not ranting and digressing - an excellent post. There are (at least!) two sides to most conflicts. And widespread ignorance of the rest of humanity only contributes to whitewashing one side and demonising the other.

wolfsbane

redstar said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I'm no defender of the West and its material god. But let me again ask you, What would you have the Israelis do, or what would you do to them? What is your solution to the Israel/Palestine problem?

Surely this is at best a rhetorical question ?
If the UN, Israel, Palestinians, Arab states, the US, Europe cannot yet come up with a solution that would work then I hardly think anyone here could. (Although they could probably get a few pointers from Paisley and Adams )

No, it was not meant rhetorically, but to point out the folly of just condemning without offering an alternative.

I agree that is is a very complex problem - which is why one shouldn't just condemn one side.

As you rightly point out, we in Ulster have made a lot of headway on our complex problem. But it took a long time - and I believe, God's direct intervention - to make us look a the problems faced by our enemies and not just our own.

Calling for the destruction of either side is certainly not a solution. The fact is that they are there, and have to live side-by-side.

That is exactly how I see it. Sadly, not how some/Israelis and Palistinians do.

For a start, though, Israel needs to create conditions for the Palestinians in which the extremists (Hamas etc) are isolated.

Agreed.

Economic despair, isolation, poverty and hunger are breeding grounds for violence.

Indeed.

Israeli policies to date have done nothing to alleviate those conditions.

It's a complex picture. Israel has provided more money/supplies than all of the Arab nations over the years - but so much has been pocketed by the corrupt Palistinian leadership. Also, there was a deliberate policy by the Arabs of not making things comfortable for the refugees, so that they would be in constant conflict with Israel.

Laterly, economic forces have been used by Israel to force political developments in Gaza, leading to a lot of suffering. However, many Israelis are also on the bread-line.

Splendour

redstar wrote: »

Presumeably you also pray for the displaced Palestinians as well, who live in camps while Israelis live in nice houses on stolen land ? And surely the Palestinians need a Saviour more than the Israelis ?

I for one feel so sorry for the displaced Palestinians. I do believe God wants his chosen people back in their homeland though I'm not sure that the way it was given to them was Gods way...