My rifle, suggestions for work I should consider getting done on it

johngalway

Hi folks,

So, I'm hoping to get the chance to bring my Remington VL SS Thumbhole .223 to a gunsmith this summer to get some improvements done. One in particular, to install a Jewell trigger, or take advice from gunsmith on a better/alternative route. Since I'll be getting that done for sure, I'm just wondering what else I should get done to improve my set up. Besides getting someone with a better shot to shoot it Sunday was the last day I had it out, best two groups were a 0.5" three shot group and a 0.6" three shot group, both at 100 yards. I had given it a damn good scrubbing earlier that day and it needed a few rounds through it to calm down. Trigger will definately improve it :yes: and me. I'm feeding it 40 grain Hornady Vmax (moly coated).

I hope to apply for a moderator later on in the year. I've to sound out that application process yet so getting it screw cut is an option that's up in the air with me at the moment. Possible recrown job at the same time.

So what else should I be considering for my foxing rig?

Thanks in advance

John

Sparks

0.5" groups at 100 yards?
I'd spend the money on better ammunition and more time on the range
No point "fixing" stuff if the shots are all going through the middle...

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

0.5" groups at 100 yards?
I'd spend the money on better ammunition and more time on the range
No point "fixing" stuff if the shots are all going through the middle...

+1

johngalway

They're the best groups I can get, if I do my part right, which I did on Sunday after the rifle settled from cleaning.

But, it's not that I want to do better, I'd just like to improve the set up to help with consistancy. For instance the better trigger pull will help with that. I've the newer what's it called Xmark Pro? Remmy trigger. Good enough job for a factory rifle, could be improved on though.

Just wondering what else I could be thinking about since I'll get that done anyway, if ye get me.

foxshooter243

" if it aint broke ,dont fix it" john, looks like you have a good shooting hunting rifle there, apart from lightening the trigger to about 2.5 lbs,
there doesnt seem to be much else needed-the F.B.I have an urban sniping rifle in 22-250 and their prerequisite was that it should hold .5moa at 100 yds so thats the same as your getting. If handloading were legal
you might tighten the load a little more...stress the words might and little,
but in the meantime i think an increase in trigger time is the best way to
get ready for foxing...;)

johngalway

Well hell then, if some East Germans try to blow up the National school or South Africans decide to rob the post office I won't be calling Bruce Willis

Suggestions from other sites so far are..

Five shot groups not three. Makes sense.
More trigger time.
Trigger.
Get the rifle bedded.
Action bluprinted.

Handloading would be good...

meathshooter

I have a vls in 243 recently pillar bedded it made a great impovement brought
it from 1 inch @ 100 to 0.5 @ 100yrds,got a timney trigger bit difference from the stock trig,0.5 / 0.6 is very good shooting,the only reason I bedded the action was my zero kept changing pillar bed sorted that out

foxshooter243

johngalway wrote: »

Well hell then, if some East Germans try to blow up the National school or South Africans decide to rob the post office I won't be calling Bruce Willis

Suggestions from other sites so far are..

Five shot groups not three. Makes sense.
More trigger time.
Trigger.
Get the rifle bedded.
Action bluprinted.

Handloading would be good...

Yeah you really need to shoot a seven shot group to tell your group size,
seven shots is the least number you can shoot to have a good chance the results can be repeated, seen a guy testing loads last weekend ,first three were practically in the same hole-4th and 5th were 2 inches away,
never seen a jaw drop as fast:D.
as for bedding there is one trick you can try that will usually give you a clue as to whether different bedding will tighten your groups.
The most common bedding technique in factory rifles is free floating-
which is really the absence of bedding. many barrels shoot well when free floated but many also shoot well with a few pounds of upward pressure near the fore-end tip,this is called pressure bedding and it seems to make
the harmonics of many barrels more consistant.
loosen the action screws just enough to get some play between barrel and fore end-take a business card and slip it into the channel just behind the fore end tip-retighten the screws and and see if your shim is creating just a bit of upward pressure on the barrel ,if not add another layer.
sometimes this gives great improvement, sometimes it makes no difference at other times it wrecks accuracy -if it work then make the shim permanent if not ,it costs nothing, be sure to make the permanent shim out of something that is inert to moisture etc.

bunny shooter

Timney trigger approx €125 wouldn't bother with anything else.

Sparks

My coach was getting his ISSF licence a few years ago. Part of the course was that the class was shown a Finnish Junior shooter shooting air rifle, and was asked what they'd change to make her shoot better. All manner of suggestions came forth, moving her head more upright, moving her head more over, bringing the rifle in more, shortening the stock, lengthening the stock, you name it. My coach's take on it was that he wouldn't change anything, because she was shooting tens.

Sometimes JG, you just have it sorted and you shouldn't mess about with it - even though the temptation to get out the toolkit is immense

Jonty

bunny shooter wrote: »

Timney trigger approx €125 wouldn't bother with anything else.

+1

Then maybe looking at pillar bedding the barrel

johngalway

Timney, to the best of my knowledge have been having quality control issues. On an important bit of kit like a trigger that's enough to steer me clear of them. I do appreciate, and have used them, but knowing my luck

Hopefully it'll be calm Sunday again and I'll get out and do some five shot groups, seven shot groups are out, do you know how much that ammo costs?!?! lol

quackquackBOOM

would go with the bedding myselt timber gets soft with all the oil used in cleaning over time and this causes the screw to go further into the timber when tightening

what about getting rid of the floorplate and getting a mag for it?

kerryman12

Lads

Could someone explain "bedding" to me?

I think I have a idea based on foxshooters post but more info would be good.

REgards

kerryman12

by the way John what moderator are you thinking about?

Mac Tire

John,

I have a VLS, and i fitted a Timney Trigger. IMO its alot better than the factory trigger, its nice and crisp and breaks well...Just my two cent..

Rovi

kerryman12 wrote: »

Lads

Could someone explain "bedding" to me?

I think I have a idea based on foxshooters post but more info would be good.

REgards

Basically, it's custom fitting your rifle action to your rifle stock.

Here's an article on the process (including pillar bedding) by Richard Franklin-
http://www.6mmbr.com/pillarbedding.html
What this guy doesn't know about stocks isn't worth knowing.

I have the DVD mentioned in the article, and it's a pleasure to watch an artist at work.

foxshooter243

kerryman12 wrote: »

Lads

Could someone explain "bedding" to me?

I think I have a idea based on foxshooters post but more info would be good.

REgards

On a heavy barreled rifle , which are normally free floated meaning you can slide a piece of paper between barrel and the stock and there is no contact-this allows the barrel to heat up but not come in contact with the stock.therefore there are no accuracy destroying pressures involved.
this works rather well on heavy stiff barrels...but on sporter weight barrels they sometimes benefit from being bedded in epoxy bedding which allows the action/barrel etc to lie in a stress free bed.
think of it like this-when a rifle fires, its barrel /action whips and vibrates
all over the place and in every direction-this causes the reciever to settle down into a different spot every time its fired , its barrel then starts to fire from a different starting point every time you shoot and the cycle keeps repeating-as the muzzle points in different places every time you shoot then your group size becomes erratic.
so in order to return the barreled action to the same spot every time you
lay it in an epoxy bed,which has a near zero tolerance fit to the reciever
you eliminate an accuracy destroying problem.
there are several different bedding techniques that can be used but thats a matter for the gunsmith and the problem involved .
however , having a good shooting rifle like johngalways 223 and having it glass bedded mightnt improve accuracy , but could lessen it.

SpringerF

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055278830&page=2

johngalway

I actually like the floorplate, had a magazine on the Tikka and they're very handy but they can get lost, popped out on me one time, was lucky to find it again. Need a special talent to lose a floorplate.

I've not thought about the model moderator yet, except I know it won't be a T8, seen too many of those with pinhole problems on other forums. Can't be losing sleep over that type of nonsense. Out of the mods I've seen in the shop, I liked th eJet-z compact I think it was, I'll need to have a good nosey around first though.

Bedding, can't explain it to you sorry. I know from talking to a gunsmith across the water my stock will need pillar bedding. will also get devcon I think it's called.

Off to see an Audiologist soon, was to my doctor today and he reccomended it.

dos29

Best of luck with the audiologist. i think your other thread has got a lot of people thinking, me included. but to stay on topic, im pre-warning that i quite probably will copy what you do with your vlss on mine! was thinking the trigger might need some work too, and the jewel sounds quite nice. the new remmy trigger is nice, no creep, but a touch heavy to pull. whatever ya get done, please post, it'll hopefully get my creative juices goin!;)

johngalway

Yeah I sure will Dos

kerryman12

Thanks for the info lads.

One thing though, it seems to me that rifle manufacture's have been selling guns for years with "floating" barrel's that will improve accuracy. Bedding seems to be a reversal of this process. It is particular interest to me as it maybe be needed with my prohunter - I posted on this point before.

John
In relation to the mod I did a good bit of research on this before I got mine I will PM it to you. I hope that other thing works out for you. I must admit that I am far more comfortable with my rifle sine I mounted the moderator. I have access to a moise meter at work -I may borrow for a weekend and carry out my own experiment.

Regards

Jonty

kerryman12 wrote: »

Thanks for the info lads.

I have access to a moise meter at work -I may borrow for a weekend and carry out my own experiment.

Regards

It'd be interesting to see the reseults. Will you post them up Kerryman?

Vegeta

Jonty wrote: »

It'd be interesting to see the reseults. Will you post them up Kerryman?

would like to see that too

kerryman12

will do -it will be a few weeks though

johngalway

Well, step one is in the works. I got my Jewell trigger today! I may be lamping tonight so it may not be installed (nervous, who said I was nervous) until tomorrow. Fine bit of kit though!

Vegeta

Some good results with this I hear John.

I would really love to try out a rifle with one of these triggers. Maybe its because I am as rough as a bear's hole but generally once a trigger is light enough (2lbs) and doesn't creep then I am happy with it.

The best triggers I have used have been on my pcp air rifles. 2 stage triggers. Pull up the slack and when you feel resistence you know another little bit and pop.

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

Some good results with this I hear John.

I would really love to try out a rifle with one of these triggers. Maybe its because I am as rough as a bear's hole but generally once a trigger is light enough (2lbs) and doesn't creep then I am happy with it.

The best triggers I have used have been on my pcp air rifles. 2 stage triggers. Pull up the slack and when you feel resistence you know another little bit and pop.

Yeah, the two stage triggers are brilliant. I've a two stage match trigger on my target rifle, it's around 45 grams, and it's lovely and crisp.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yeah, the two stage triggers are brilliant. I've a two stage match trigger on my target rifle, it's around 45 grams, and it's lovely and crisp.

Any idea why they are not more popular on other rifle types, fullbore etc

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

Any idea why they are not more popular on other rifle types, fullbore etc

Wouldn't have a clue in the competition sense, but presumably a very light trigger, and the two-stage trigger requires a deal of sensitivity in the hands, wouldn't be good for hunting, especially on a cold day, too many shots released when they shouldn't be. The two-stage triggers are definitely nice though.

Sparks

I know some competitive ISSF shooters were trained/training on single-stage triggers because under the stress of a match, it was thought that the fine control needed to take up the first stage without actually tripping the second stage was a source of problems. Personally, I've never found that to be the case - taking up the first stage for me was always the psychological "set" button.

Vegeta

Also it sounds like the second stage of the triggers you use are way lighter than i have ever used so I am sure the second stage could be set to something reasonable for hunting.

You're right though its probably for nothing other than simplicity. Single stage trigger put x lbs on it and bang goes the gun.

Pity as I definitely find them more intuitive

johngalway

Vegeta wrote: »

Some good results with this I hear John.

I would really love to try out a rifle with one of these triggers.

Oh yes best grouping before the Jewell was 0.5 inch, best group since Jewell is 0.3

Early days yet. I need a calm day, one I'm not working, to give her a proper run out. Needed to do some stock adjusting to fit it in but all is well now.

All the great things you've heard about Jewell triggers are complete lies...

They're much better than that :D:D