Irish small press comics?

Fysh

I went to the Bristol Comic Expo last weekend, and something that I'd wondered idly a couple of months back at The Web & Mini Comic Thing became a more pressing question:

Where is the Irish small press comics scene?

It's weird. Until I got to see what the UK small press scene is like first-hand, I wouldn't have thought there was anything odd about Ireland's comic scene, but there really is.

Attending the Thing and the exhibitor hall in Bristol, as well as trawling the likes of the small press shelves in local comic shops in London, I realised that there's a really good small press scene here, and it's backed up to an extent with conventions.

Ireland doesn't seem to have that. (For clarity's sake, I'm talking only about the Republic here, since I think the Northern Irish stuff tends to get lumped in with the British stuff). Sure, there's Subcon and the Dublin City Comic Coon and these are supportive towards Irish small press such as it is, but have a closer look at the names that tend to come up here.

Off the top of my head: Bob Byrne, Alan Nolan, Ian Whelan, Declan Shalvey, Will Sliney, Stephen Mooney, Rob Curley, Chris Judge, BrenB. That's the kind of level we're talking about. But these people aren't really small press - they're pretty much independents, since if you look at what comics they've done and sell, you will find products with good professional production values and high standards. Hell, in Bob Byrne's case he's gotten his comics distributed by Diamond - that's about as far from Small Press as you can realistically get.

The simplest reason that occurs to me with this is geographical - outside of Dublin it's quite difficult to find comic shops, so it stands to reason that people making zine-style small press comics might be equally hard to find and thus don't bother, due to the inherent difficulty in distributing their comics in a way that will let them find an audience. I've seen one small press comic in Cork which was quite popular and well-received as far as I know (Three Cheers For Mute Ingloriousness), and a couple of other comics were stocked by Other Realms waaaaaaaaay back when. Beyond that, the only things that I can think of would be the likes of Darrk/Light or maybe Robojo. I may be missing out a couple of titles here, but the point that there are very few paper-based Irish small press comics stands.

So surely the way out of this geographical awkwardness would be the internet? Webcomics are fairly easy to get going, after all.

Nope. At my last count, there are somewhere between 6 and 9 active Irish webcomics, and about 20 or so which have been active in the past but are now either permanently over or on an extended hiatus.

In short, we have an Irish comics scene where:
a) there is little or no grass-roots comic-making activity, either on paper or in digital form,
b) there are no "professional" long-term comics to which newcomers can look for advice or a way into the industry,
c) those with sufficient determination, talent, and luck can put out an independently published comic (but having to re-invent the wheel along the way in terms of figuring out how to do everything),

How come our scene is so small? How come there aren't more comics the size and format of the shiznit, only done in black and white via a photocopier? How come there aren't more Irish webcomics? (It's not like it's hard to do a webcomic, although getting one that looks good is a different matter) Is there a market in Ireland for small press? Is there much of a market in Ireland for independent comics for that matter? If there is, how do we encourage and nurture it?

bombidol

There are a few. Theres Nikki: Tales from Bray and Fugger and theres one or two more I've seen pop up. Dunno if theres much of a market for it really though.

Emmett

Small press comics lose money. They can get you some recognition but in the long run you're flushing money down the toilet making small press comics. At one time before I had a family I put out 5 issues of my Dope Fiends comic. Had a blast doing it and met some great people along the way but couldn't stand to lose money anymore. The market was much healthier back then too. I put out 1000 copies of #1 in several printings. I love to see people doing the small press comics ,so much work goes into them for little or no return. That's when you know these people LOVE what they're doing.

Fysh

I dunno, you say you flush money away but if you do a 24-page b&w comic with pages drawn at A4 but resized down to A5 you're talking about 6 A4 sheets per comic. You can print up a couple of hundred issues of that pretty easily via anywhere that offers a photocopying service for the kind of money that a lot of people will blitz through on a friday night. If you've got access to a reasonable computer you can get all the tools you need to put it together for free or cheap, then just whack it out as a PDF and print it up somewhere and bang, pages ready to go (minus stapling, of course).

I agree that you won't make much money out of it, but as you say, that's not really the point of small press. I just think it's a shame there's not more of a scene for it anywhere in Ireland.

I still think it's weird that there's not much of a webcomic scene either. I mean, with free hosting all over the shop you'd think the whole cost argument would just fall over, but apparently not...

ztoical

Emmett wrote: »

Small press comics lose money.

Well it depends on your view of a return on your product. Not all return is monetary. Most people who print small press comics make them because [a] they have a story they want to tell [the likes of say Katherine Arnoldi's "The Amazing "True" Story of a Teenage Single Mom"] or they want to use it for promotion. I've plenty of friends who self publish and via their self published work have got paying gigs - Raina Telgemeier has just finished her forth graphic novel for the babysitters club series for scolastic, she got that job directly via her self published comic "Smile". people like Brian Wood, Becky Cloonan, James Jean, Dash Shaw etc etc all self published work and through that got noticed by editors/art directors. And most of them still self publish their own stuff - Cloonan tries to make at least one self published comic a year on top of all her paid work.

Most comic/magazine editors will tell you the prefer to see self published comics over a portfilio filled with comic pages any day. It shows you can follow through on something and are more committed as your willing to put the time and effort in.

if your trying to make a living on just small press and just on the irish market then yeah your not in good shape but the joy of the internet and cheap flights is that there is no reason to be limited. the internet has also made the production of comics a hell of alot cheaper with print on demand places the focus just on comics popping up all over [comixpress, lulu, kablam] My biggest issue with small press in ireland is the lack of tech know how - the majority of the books I've picked up have been pixelated or bound very poorly and I know a few people who've tired to self publish here and spent a stupid amount of money on their printing when they could have done the same job for a fraction of the cost if they'd just been willing to put the work in. The table beside me this weekend at Bristol had an 80 page prefect bind book, colour cover, black and white inside and their production cost per book was 0.25p.

If you start any business [shop, cafe, etc] your told to expect to make a loss for the first 3 years, so why would it be any different for self publishing?

Emmett

It's not just the printing costs though. If you really want to make something of your small press comic and get it noticed, you'll have to send copies all over the world to reviewers, fanzines, shops etc. I once got an order for 260 copies from an american magazine distributor but the postage was way more than the profit I was making from the comics. Also you have to think about the costs of renting tables at cons and travel.
Sorry to sound so negative, I just found it all a struggle. I wanted the comic to succeed and be seen by as many people as possible but the time and money I was putting in was keeping me from putting food on the table. I've a ton of respect for anyone who does it because most times they could be making good money from their art/writing skill in other areas.
If I were to do it again though, I'd go the web comic route where theirs no limit to how many people see your stuff.

ztoical

Emmett wrote: »

It's not just the printing costs though. If you really want to make something of your small press comic and get it noticed, you'll have to send copies all over the world to reviewers, fanzines, shops etc. I once got an order for 260 copies from an american magazine distributor but the postage was way more than the profit I was making from the comics.

American small press does have an advantage in that you can use media mail to send printed material at a massive discount to standard post. There isn't an irish option like it and it causes great confusion when I tell american friends that. But its not just indie publishers that suffer from that - Working as an illustrator your expected to send out postcards of your current work every 3 months or so - thats 300+ postcards, depending on your mailing list, every 3 months and the first lot might not bring you any work, the 2nd lot might bring one or two etc etc You've got the cost of the postcards and the postage every three months.

The cost of hitting cons isn't nearly as expensive as people think unless you jump right into doing cons like SDCC straight off the bat. Start as local as you can and move out - plan ahead so your not paying for table, flights and hotel at the same time. Planning ahead also means you can keep an eye on flights and get a good deal. My flights to portland for the recent stumptown festival where 400 euro. Kill as many birds with one stone - cons like MoCCA and SPX will have all the editors from DC and Marvel wandering around. They don't look at portfilios at small press shows but they will take copies of comics off you and a good chunk of them [most notably the top shelf editors] are great for emailing comments to people. Comics blogs and Podcasts are at most cons now and trading with other exhibitors is a great way to get a comic around - you get mentioned on their blog and you make a friend whom you can share costs with at future shows. Also hit up all the local comic shops when your in town for a con and dump off books.

I've done three cons in the last 3 months and have managed to keep my costs right down. Sharing tables, hotels, car rental with other creators is great way to keep the bills from piling to high. At the recent Bristol con I didn't have to fork out for a hotel as a friend whom I made at another english con offered me crash space and I will return the favor by letting her crash with me for the MoCCA arts fest in june and she pays part of the table cost as well. Cons are a massive learning curve and it takes doing a few to know how much stock you need and what price you should be selling at. You don't even have to attend a con - I couldn't make SPX two years ago but my friends took my stuff for me. I'm taking copies of Mr. Amperduke and Sancho to MoCCA in june and those guys are taking stuff for me to the 2D show in Derry the same weekend.

It takes time, effort and yes money to start off but every field of the arts is like that - if your working as an animator or a film maker you've got to hit up film festivals to raise money [the feature film I just finished on spent over 4 years hitting festivals and events all over europe raising the money for production]. With music you've got to make that demo then get the right people to listen to it. At least at comic con you've got a product you can sell and make some money back, attending animation festivals your just spending money on the off chance you might make some contacts. Fine arts festivals either rape you of money to exhibit in a gallery space or you can sell on the street which can be very hit and miss and you have to sit outside on the street - at last years kilkenny arts festival it lashed rain for 6 out of the 7 days.

JangoFett

I've written a story, well, the skeleton of a story, but I dunno where its going, when I sit down with my friend who'd love to put pencils down for it I guess we'll develop the story

alnolan

I've never met anyone who works in comics who was rich. Although Mark Millar was wearing quite a nice jacket.

We've lost more money than we've made off Sancho in the last 3 years, but having said that, I've picked up paid colouring, illustration and writing jobs off the back of it, so it all sort of evens out.

Basically I do it because I love it. I never expected it to make me rich, and as long as I can keep costs to a minimum and don't make a huge wife-annoying dent in the credit card I'm as happy as a sandboy. Cliodhna's right -- comics are fun, through them you meet good people, make great friends, see some fantastic work, and get the odd slap on the back yourself -- that's gotta be worth the time and effort and the small bit of cash.

Earthhorse

ztoical wrote: »

It takes time, effort and yes money to start off but every field of the arts is like that... With music you've got to make that demo then get the right people to listen to it. At least at comic con you've got a product you can sell and make some money back, attending animation festivals your just spending money on the off chance you might make some contacts.

That's interesting. I don't know enough about the Irish comic scene to add anything of value but it's interesting that we have a pretty vibrant local music scene (certainly in Dublin) but not so much a vibrant comic scene. Maybe it's just that comics is in its infancy, maybe musicians can survive off playing live better than someone can off producing a comic (I mean in terms of keeping their spirits alive and giving them something to aim for, not financially).

Considering the amount of talent Ireland has it's always struck me as odd that there isn't more stuff procuded here. I think a lot of our film talent gets sucked abroad because film is just so expensive to finance (I know recording albums and producing comics is too but I think on average film dwarfs them both).

FUGGER

Hello everyone, fussiness about the paper (hate that glossy stuff) probably cost Fugger, but I was compelled by anthropoloigcal reasons to go ahead and publish the sloppy outburst I saw in my head. I'll be checking my options next time though as I'm not even out for a very polished look (well that depends actually, the next thing might not be a Fugger).

I'm not a comic con attender and don't follow the scene too much (all my favourite comic producers are either dead or in prison) but I think there's a pretty good scene here considering that most people who like comics are only into Superhero stuff, the size of the country, and, as stated above, the lack of comic shops outside of the larger cities. I think artistic things come about naturally and can rarely be fostered, other than by way of forums like this for mutual advice. I'm not sure what I'm doing and will learn. I'm just gald to be liberated from funding applications and the proscriptive arts admin. psychological warfare that comes with them. Seems to me, self-published comics are often outsider art done for reasons of art for art's sake.

P.S., Knocked Up Nikki is a good laugh.

alnolan

Sometimes it's about expressing a deep, longing need in an A5 format, sometimes it's about the nostalgia you feel for the pure joy of a favoured type of childhood entertainment, and sometimes it's about this...

http://www.youtube.com/mangledferret

ztoical

FUGGER wrote: »

I'm just gald to be liberated from funding applications and the proscriptive arts admin. psychological warfare that comes with them. Seems to me, self-published comics are often outsider art done for reasons of art for art's sake.

I'm very divided by this as on one hand I want the arts council or similar body to fund some sort of comic anthology, or have a publishing grant like the xeric grant, or support a comic event just out of principle but then I've seen first hand the amount of politics, back stabbing, and bullsh!t that goes on with the animation grants they do and I'd hate for the comic scene to get caught up in stuff like that.

I do think one area that could be improved [and is slowly improving] is the libraries selection of comics - there is a french language library in dublin that has french comics and even the dublin libraries have started to stock a selection of comics - everything from superhero to indie to manga to BD's [the Ilac center library has copies of I'ncal].

magwea

I'm with ztoical, I'd love to see more comics in the libraries. The Brits and the Americans seem to realize how popular this stuff is. At the moment our libraries are filled with mostly crap and the occasional gem. Last time I looked in the Ilac they had Mark Evanier's gaint sized Kirby Fantastic Four and an early tpb of Groo th Wanderer but thats about it. The Trinity library is very good for comics, much better then any of the public libraries, they even subscribed to Mad magazine for awhile, but good-luck getting getting a civilian card to get in.

I have heard that the Alliance Francaise has a BD section, has anyone checked it out? Is it worth the 30 euro membership fee?

Grants for comics seems kinda strange for me, didn't even know that there was any money going to animation. I'd imagine it would be a hard sell anyway, especially considering the kinda comics most of the small press people are making, and -oh yeah- the horrible cliquishness of the art establishment.

ztoical

magwea wrote: »

I'm with ztoical, I'd love to see more comics in the libraries. The Brits and the Americans seem to realize how popular this stuff is. At the moment our libraries are filled with mostly crap and the occasional gem. Last time I looked in the Ilac they had Mark Evanier's gaint sized Kirby Fantastic Four and an early tpb of Groo th Wanderer but thats about it. The Trinity library is very good for comics, much better then any of the public libraries, they even subscribed to Mad magazine for awhile, but good-luck getting getting a civilian card to get in.

I def think its one area that could be used to promote small press and after reading this thread I think I might write to the libraries and bug them about doing something - got nothing to lose.

magwea wrote: »

I have heard that the Alliance Francaise has a BD section, has anyone checked it out? Is it worth the 30 euro membership fee?

I know one girl who has membership and the list of books shes taken out is pretty impressive and there seems to be good selection and range of BD's. Not sure if its worth it for someone like me who lives down the country.

magwea wrote: »

Grants for comics seems kinda strange for me, didn't even know that there was any money going to animation. I'd imagine it would be a hard sell anyway, especially considering the kinda comics most of the small press people are making, and -oh yeah- the horrible cliquishness of the art establishment.

You'd be surprised what grants and schemes there are out there for different areas of the arts. Frameworks is the main animation grant which if run correctly would support a healthy animation industry but I know alot of animators who don't like the way the money is allocated with people from the big animation studios in Dublin giving the grant to each other each year - its very hard for new people to come along and apply for it. I know one animation studio in Dublin got it two years in a row which firstly your not suppose to be able to do and secondly they didn't even apply the second time, they got a call from one of the guys on the committee who told them as long as they stuck their name down they'd get it regardless of wither they had an idea for a short film or not. There is a grant for publishing which is aimed at writers but I don't see why someone who has written a graphic novel shouldn't apply for this grant [but again getting it is another story, Bob Byrne did a great piece in the Shiznit about how messed up the arts council system is]

There is a grant called the small festivals grant which I applied for for 24 hour comic day and got told a big no yet they funded a 24 hour Art event in Cork last year [an event were the artists didn't even create for 24 hours they just had 24 artists who each did an hour] whom I know asked for a hell of alot more money then I asked for.

My brother works in live action film and get a grant to make a tv show about paint ball - now I'm not saying thats a bad thing and I do know he worked his ass off to get the grant and is now working his ass to make 8 shows after being given enough money to make 2 shows. But really if shows about paint ball can get grants why not comics? Surely the paintball scene in this country is around the same size as the comics scene?

There is one fantastic grant for self publishers called the Xeric grant [there are loads of smaller ones like the Shakespere and co grant but the Xeric grant is by far the best] which has helped a number of really well known creators get their first books published but sadly you have to be living in the US to be able to apply for it.

film_gonzo

Hey,

I've been flitting around these boards for a while now without really posting but I find this subject really interesting as I'm hoping to co-write and draw a small press comic this summer but wouldn't have the first notion when it comes to distribution bar asking the local comic stores to stock the zine.

To be fair I'm completely green to this process and only fairly new to the whole comics scene in general (as my name should give away, films are my main area of interest) but me and a friend have some ideas that we think could make some really nice stories if done correctly.

I'm not doing this for monetary rewards but doing it instead for the desire to tell these stories (along with challenging myself in a new medium and perhaps getting some kudos along the way. Who doesn't like a an ego boost now and again )

I would really like to hear of any chains of distribution you guys might know of (preferably hardcopy but digitally also). Printing isn't an issue as I can do here in work but binding might be. Can you guys reccommend any process in particular? I know I don't wanna go down the ****ty stapling route but is string bound the only other option?

Look forward to your input.

Fysh

Funny you should ask that, film_gonzo, I've been talking to a couple of people about trying to put together some instructive threads on exactly those topics - how to go about making your own comics. Hampered somewhat by my own limited knowledge, of course, but that's where I'll be picking the brains of other folks who know what they're talking about.

Keep your eyes peeled, there should be something up within the next couple of weeks or so and we'll see how it goes from there...

Regarding grants, the Xeric award is great, I found out about it after discovering a friend in college had won it. Shame it's restricted to the US, but it would be great to have an Irish equivalent...

Uncle Spunk

Hey all. I think the lack of suitable outlets has stunted small press plus the average irish comic reader is so into crap comics that even 'proper' indie books don't get attention.

Yeah, what Al said, it's a money loser mostly but The Shiznit etc have opened a lot of doors for me (and a lot of legs!ZING!!). I got my clamtastic day job because of the Shiz. So hard work doesn't go unrewarded. It's better to put out
a half arsed small press comic than none at all

Nathanual

Well,

A like minded group of individuals met earlier this year, they had all worked together on a anthology comic but found that little recognition was given back to them in return. So they founded their own comic book company. www.longstonepress.com will release their first comic at the 2D festival in Derry on June 7th.

I'm the writer of this comic and thank the lord that I found great artists to work with because I can barely draw a straight line with a ruler....

Is it possible for some (or all) the small press peeps to get together and form an uber company which can promote and distribute everyone's work???

I have promoted my novel which was published by a POD, I managed to sell a fair few thousand and loved it. As for small press? Well no... there is little profit in it but there are other reasons to do it... Hope everyone gets a chance to publish at least one comic, the feeling is great....

Talk soon
Stephen

ztoical

Nathanual wrote: »

Is it possible for some (or all) the small press peeps to get together and form an uber company which can promote and distribute everyone's work???

I have promoted my novel which was published by a POD, I managed to sell a fair few thousand and loved it. As for small press? Well no... there is little profit in it but there are other reasons to do it... Hope everyone gets a chance to publish at least one comic, the feeling is great....

the issue with starting a company to promote and distribute work is you need someone to step up and take control - for some small projects its not needed but if you wanted to do something at that large a scale you would really need one or two people who would be the editors. People would need to put money in to make it work but then some quality control would also have to come in to it and you have people who are putting money being told their work isn't of a hight enough standard for print. not saying its not an idea worth exploring but there would need to be alot of set up.

Also moving in that direction is more for people who want to make a living with comics were as the vast majority of people producing small press comics are doing it for reasons other then profit and the people who are trying to make something more out of comic work are usually already putting the work/time/money in.

FUGGER

An umbrella company is a nice idea but might bring friction. The differing voices in these small press comics, and varation of styles and concepts of 'ability' found in them, means that everyone involved in the company might not have the same idea of what the company should or could be doing.

An anthology is an interesting idea too and it's a pity yours didn't work out to your satisfaction. I've always enjoyed anthologies with their mix of styles. From 2000AD to RAW and Weirdo, anthologies are the comics that have had the strongest effect upon me (although, the odd graphic novel and the whole Acme Novelty Libarary thing can't be excluded). Anthologies also decrease the workload, which means a more regular publishing schedule, and share the financial burden. However, there is still that risk of clashing editorial visions that there is with an umbrella company.

I think the nicest thing about small press and things like the net is that people (anyone at all) can express themselves in their own little way and other people can find these comics etc. and go "what the f**k is this?" and hopefully get something out of it that they wouldn't get out of a copy of Heat Magazine or Hot Press or the Indo or the Times or... yawn... whatever other jaded examples of white noise happens to be out there clogging up our cultural landscape.

I hope Ztoical is getting plenty of submissions for her Goal book. Besides it being for a good cause, it should be interesting from a collaborative stand point. Also, I'm glad to hear comics are opening legs for Uncle Spunk. You might also be interested to know that it is thanks to my own Fugger that our local parish priest (Father Maurice O'Gorman) recently asked me to sit on his lap. I polietly declined however, and an awkward silence ensued as he quietly finished his slice of fruit cake and forlornly left the house.

Now, ...I'm off to the Mindpuss website.

Fysh

The umbrella company idea is a nice one but, I think, unsuited to the harsh financial realities of small-press comics. Given that you'll probably be talking about either advertising-funded comics or self-funded comics, there's a lot of scope for friction due to differing ideals on what publication route to go down and what sort of standards to adhere to.

That being said, it'd be a great idea for a web-based initiative; if you get someone competent to handle the technical side of things for you it'd be fairly simple to have a central site with customised sub-sections for each member (which could effectively behave as a standalone website, depending on what people prefer). Of course, the problem with this is that it still requires money to go into it while simultaneously making it harder to get money out (much harder to sell "digital content" than it is a physical product).

thebaddy

This thread is turning in to a really good discussion, I have been thinking about something similar for a while. Here's my two cents: rather than an umbrella company trying to make a profit, how about a co-operative advertisment that's available for anyone to run in their comic / website promoting the collective work of all of us Irish small pressers. We could run it in our own publications and/or band together to advertise in some of the bigger venues (Comics Journal etc.). Unity people! There is precious few of us.

Also, sorry about this major plugola:

Anybody who is in Dublin Wednesday week (4th of June) head on up to the Stags head. I'm having a party there to launch the first issue of my new comic book, "Last Bus". There's gonna be some funky tunes, live music, some free stuff and the comic will be on sale for the first time! Whoo!!

Check it out!: http://www.patrickl.net

Paddy

Nathanual

Well, the company we've started is edging towards a umbrella company. As a writer who couldn't draw to save his life it's a great idea we are trying to expand. I love writing for comics and also love writing novels and short stories. I've been promoting my own work for a long time now, little success but its growing.

The umbrella idea will either work or not, no friction as we are all pretty realistic and want to place ads in all our comics for other small press comic.

We have realistic goals and visions of what we want to do.

I'll try be at the launch of your comic... guys we have to support each other... email me at scgoatboy@hotmail.com would love to hear more about your book....

Stephen

FUGGER

Well my output will be sporadic but I'd happily carry the ad. It's a great idea and the web idea is a good one too.

Earthhorse

What I've always thought would work (and maybe there is something like this already in Ireland) is to create a network where Irish writers and artists can get in touch with each other. Similar to the requests thread on this board except every member has a profile including samples of their work, what they're currently working on, what they're looking for help on and so forth. Basically a way for people to get in touch with others.

alnolan

I think there might be mileage in a one off anthology TPB, featuring a rake of Irish small press creators. Certainly it's a good PR story, within Ireland anyway, and could be a book that would go down well further afield where a "Best of Irish Small Press" could be a revelation to a crowd who didn't know there were any Irish small press creators.

But that's the thing, isn't it? Who decides what's the best? As Ztoical points out, there would need to be one person in strict charge of editing/quality control -- one or two dodgy strips could blow the whole thing. Accent UK's recent Robots book is a case in point, 90% good stuff, but let down in a way, imho, by a couple of amateurish stories.

If it was going to be done, it'd have to be done right. And that would mean pissing off a few people.

I can see it now, a big brawl in Georges Street, disappointed small press creators out for blood armed with extra sharp H pencils and long arm staplers...

Nathanual

So what you would need is someone who's judgement was impeachable and that all submissions were judged and that judgement was final....

Anyway... This question of Irish Small Press is a good one... we are there, and we'll keep putting out our comics for as long as our wallets or wives allow us to.

Hope to meet some of you at the 2D Festival, and hope more that most of you will pick up a copy of our first comic Rosemary: The Return.... check out the poster artwork attached.... feedback is always welcome... scgoatboy@hotmail.com

Talk soon

cronndiesel

fair play to this forum and this thread small press is the only hope for comics in ireland but alas i think its a distribution and lack of veriety as well as perception

iv bought some irish comics (when i could find them!)but to be honest there were all into new age or goth and came away like a bad 2000ad copy from an other dimension the art and dialogue were fine/fantastic but the storys and concepts were pointless horror or OTT on the ''satan rules ''schtick
another problem is distribution main distributers adoped new rules a few years ago that many say have made it harder to stock all but the most common stuff eg marveluk, thomas the tank engine etc if i remember rightly its about so many thousands shifting a month so the newsagents are out unless you go to them individualy and go to the hassle of getting what your owed yourself
the long running perception that still holds true in many placeses is that comics are for ''babys/nerds/weirdos (tick a box people:rolleyes:) etc
proberly the greatest mitigator against small press taking off IMO is the sheer volume of soccer mags/mens mags on the shelves ''people arnt interested in sitin watchin a comic we want to watch football ffs!'' sadly this isnt the first time ive been told this

there just isnt the demand (perhaps its a cultural thing?)
a dedicated shop for comics never lasts, ive never seen one last longer then approx 12 months on its own in over 26 years of collecting comics
there have been some gallant trys in the past 8 yrs but no go
id say video games have also contributied to it
''why read a comic when you can play it on video game and be the hero and make your own ending '' no prizes for guessing what came next:rolleyes::rolleyes:''comics are for girls/babys etc etc:rolleyes: sigh!!

cronndiesel

alnolan wrote: »

I think there might be mileage in a one off anthology TPB, featuring a rake of Irish small press creators. Certainly it's a good PR story, within Ireland anyway, and could be a book that would go down well further afield where a "Best of Irish Small Press" could be a revelation to a crowd who didn't know there were any Irish small press creators.

But that's the thing, isn't it? Who decides what's the best? As Ztoical points out, there would need to be one person in strict charge of editing/quality control -- one or two dodgy strips could blow the whole thing. Accent UK's recent Robots book is a case in point, 90% good stuff, but let down in a way, imho, by a couple of amateurish stories.

If it was going to be done, it'd have to be done right. And that would mean pissing off a few people.

I can see it now, a big brawl in Georges Street, disappointed small press creators out for blood armed with extra sharp H pencils and long arm staplers...

:DLOL
who ever it is dont let it be an editor i think a number of people with a broad collection should decide and not to old (thats me out hahaha!)as you hope to launch a new awareness of an neglected sector of the literary market

Emmett

I think Alan could be onto something with the tpb featuring the best of Irish comics. Contributors could share the cost so it wouldn't all fall on one person. How about themed tpb's such as a Humour collection, Horror collection, Superheroes etc. (If the Horror one hit at Halloween time it could get some good publicity. ) I'd certainly be interested in submitting.

Nathanual

I also would love to submit to this... horror or ghost story... you could pick... Halloween is always a good time for a launch...

I'll bring the candy....

Stephen

ztoical

Emmett wrote: »

I think Alan could be onto something with the tpb featuring the best of Irish comics. Contributors could share the cost so it wouldn't all fall on one person. How about themed tpb's such as a Humour collection, Horror collection, Superheroes etc. (If the Horror one hit at Halloween time it could get some good publicity. ) I'd certainly be interested in submitting.

Its a good idea but I do think it needs some decent editoral control otherwise your going to end up with having some weak work dragging the rest down and you've no choice but to include it cus they've contributed to the cost of printing. I def prefer themed anthologies as otherwise it can be very schizophrenic.

Not sure how doable a halloween '08 deadline is but 24 hour comics day* will be on the weekend before halloween and we're going to try and expand the reading table as that went down well last year even in very small forum. I'm getting a stack of irish zines/mini comics from Pádraig Ó Méalóid that will there for people to read. It might be a good weekend for people to drop in and chat about irish comics even if they aren't taking part in drawing a 24 hour comic.

*there will be a proper annoucement for 24 hour comics day - we were just waiting for dates to be cleared and once MoCCA is out of the way this weekend I'll have time to focus on getting site updated and posting all the details.

Fysh

Realistically the only way to have a decent TPB representing irish small press would be for the comic production and comic editorial/publishing side to be kept separate. So you'd need to have some sort of governing body/trust/foundation set up who were tasked with either performing editorial duties or appointing someone to perform them, and to take responsibility for the raising and allocation of funds with which to put out the first book.

Which sounds great and all, but is still open to exploitation. Look at what happens in the irish arts council or with animation grants. Any time there's signifcant money to be had (be it in the form of sponsorship or advertising money, or in the form of grants or government/public funding) it seems that a very incestuous cliquey situation comes to pass.

Personally I like the idea but don't think it'd work. Unless you had some mad patron willing to hand over loads of cash to fund the printing entirely separately from the editorial process, and have the editor be entirely unconnected to the artists submitting work, you'll run into nepotism and related problems.

(Which is why I think web-based initiatives are a better idea for this sort of thing; if you know you're probably going to lose money up front anyway, at least losing money to run a website is cheaper than losing money to print and sell a book).

thebaddy

Fysh wrote: »

I think web-based initiatives are a better idea for this sort of thing; if you know you're probably going to lose money up front anyway, at least losing money to run a website is cheaper than losing money to print and sell a book.

I honestly only enjoy reading webcomics a teensy tiny fraction of the amount I do traditionally printed ones. I think an awful lot of sh#te ends up on the web precisely because the overheads are lower. If you have the conviction to go through with something in print, seeing as it will cost you an arm and a leg chances are you're going to do your best to make it as good as possible.

That said, there are PLENTY of exceptions (Brian Ralph, anyone?).

cronndiesel

i wonder where would you hold it though? what hotel would have us?

still shir as long as we have the colour of money under their nose and were not going to pull the place down how could they refuse
fuc knows they ve had worse in behind the door:(

maybe an antholgy of lots of different genres i remember *takes out pipe and pulls up to the fire wearing blue tartan slippers with matching flat cap* dna swamp managed 10 issues but it was an antholgy of all the same stuff and didnt last -
i dunno

Fysh

thebaddy wrote: »

I honestly only enjoy reading webcomics a teensy tiny fraction of the amount I do traditionally printed ones. I think an awful lot of sh#te ends up on the web precisely because the overheads are lower. If you have the conviction to go through with something in print, seeing as it will cost you an arm and a leg chances are you're going to do your best to make it as good as possible.

That said, there are PLENTY of exceptions (Brian Ralph, anyone?).

Having the money and conviction to see something to print doesn't actually mean your comics are any good, it just means you've got money, time and determination/stubborn-ness. An awful lot of sh*te ends up in print too; it's just that a lot of people are less likely to turn around and say "you're comic is a load of crap" if they know you've spent several grand printing it up into a TPB than they are if you just put it on the web and you're only paying a few quid for hosting it.

(I'm not saying this with anyone in mind, just pointing out that as PODs have become more easily available over the last few years so has the amount of vanity publishing)
A good anthology will require good editorial control to separate good submissions from crap ones. At which point you immediately have a problem of "what constitutes good?" If small press comics are by definition not mainstream comics nor independent comics, then should the same quality constraints be applied to them? At what point do we say that someone is not so much a small press comic artist as an independent comic artist?

Then you've got the issue of funding. Sucky though it is, far fewer people will contribute a significant chunk of money towards the creation of a hard-copy small press anthology that their work isn't good enough to be included in than would contribute a few quid towards a small press focused website that their work isn't good enough to appear on, just because it's easier to get people to part with €10 than it is €250.

What about having a regular presence. What good is a one-off snapshot of the small press scene? Surely if it's worth a damn you want some regular update to that snapshot, so that you can see how the scene is developing? Trying to pull together a good-quality affordable anthology from small press creators every 3-6 months, where you're also having funding nightmares because you want to be particularly selective about quality, is the sort of thing that will put people in an early grave.

It's all very well saying "Wow, a TPB of good small press comics from Ireland, awesome!" I'd love to see it. But there are several realities that have to be accepted as part of the discussion, which include:

1. It will at best break even, and probably not even that - certainly not if it's a once-off job with a single limited print run
2. getting the money to fund it is likely to be a complete bitch
3. comments in this thread aside, how viable is this concept financially? how many people would really buy this? We don't really know at the moment
4. any kind of editorial control is going to cause fights

I still think that setting up a website to serve as the regularly-updated hub, perhaps promoted by a few print minicomics distributed to comic stores, bookshops and what have you, would cost less and allow you to better gauge audience response before committing to go to print.

ztoical

cronndiesel wrote: »

i wonder where would you hold it though? what hotel would have us?

still shir as long as we have the colour of money under their nose and were not going to pull the place down how could they refuse
fuc knows they ve had worse in behind the door:(

now I'm confused did I miss a post? why do we need a hotel room to put an anthology together?

alnolan

ztoical wrote: »

now I'm confused did I miss a post? why do we need a hotel room to put an anthology together?

Hold on, what kind of comic IS this??!!!

Fysh

alnolan wrote: »

Hold on, what kind of comic IS this??!!!

By the sound of it we're moving towards photocomics of a very specific sort...

Robert Curley

I have been reading this thread with great interest and there have been a lot of positive ideas coming from the posters involved. So I would like to add my own two cents worth. I'm not going to go into the pros and cons of producing an Irish graphic novel as I think that has been covered in depth already. What I would like to offer is an outlet and opportunity for Irish creators.

The first being an "Irish" free comic book day much like the American one except with (you guessed it!) only Irish titles on offer.

Anyone who has produced a comic is more than welcome to join in. You will of course have to donate a certain amount of your comic work to the cause, it's up to each individual what type of quantities they want to put foward but bear in mind the more you donate, the more people it gets out to.

I will do instore advertising for Sub-City Dublin and Galway and will contact the Forbidden Planet, Story, Other Realms, Comix Stop etc and I'm sure they will be happy to take part.

If you're interested in this idea you can contact me at robsubcity@gmail.com


On a similar note, in an effort to highlight upcoming Irish talent I thought it would be a good idea to have one or two page stories in the back of my own titles. The idea being that I will write a small piece to be drawn by a different artist each time, you can use this to further highlight your work, blogs, websites etc.

Again if anyone is interested you can get in touch with me through the afformentioned email.

Cheers.

Rob.

cronndiesel

ztoical wrote: »

now I'm confused did I miss a post? why do we need a hotel room to put an anthology together?

OOoops! i thought i read in one of the posts about some big of launching the anthology

:oi assumed.......

note to self:
ASSUMED- (makes and ASS out of U and an ass out of ME)

sorry about that ztoical

ztoical

Robert Curley wrote: »

The first being an "Irish" free comic book day much like the American one except with (you guessed it!) only Irish titles on offer.

Cheers.

Rob.

Just to update people I've been in thouch with Rob about his idea and combining it with 24 hour comics day in October - no further deatils yet as there is alot to figure out and organize but I wanted to give people a rough date that they could be working towards - the weekend of the 18th of October which gives people roughly four months of getting comics together time. I've got a little bit of free time now so will get the info for 24 hour comics day up ASAP and further information for the free comic day when we've ironed out all the hows, wheres, and whats.

Robert Curley

Just a quick update on Free Irish comic book day.

Creators taking part so far

Bob Byrne "Mister Amperduke"

Gerry Hunt " In Dublin city"

Alan nolan and Ian whelan "Sancho"

Robert Curley [me] "Freak Show"

And the shop's which are taking part so far are as follows

Forbidden Planet Dublin

Forbidden Planet Belfast

Sub-City Dublin

Sub-City Galway

Other Realms Cork

The date has been set for October 18 to conincide with 24 hour comics day run by Cliodhna.

Any other creators who want to get involved please do contact me.

more info to follow!

Fysh

That sounds like an excellent idea Rob, kudos for getting things rolling with this. Hopefully it'll garner enough visibility to get people who wouldn't normally buy comics to notice them.

Would it be worth trying to get bookshops involved, I wonder? (I know that to a certain extent they're "the enemy" in the context of comic shops, but even just getting them to display posters about the event would help since they'll have a lot of customers who might not normally think to buy comics)

Robert Curley

Yeah good idea, I will see who might be interested on the book shop front. The broader the audience the better.

Cheers

ztoical

Robert Curley wrote: »

Yeah good idea, I will see who might be interested on the book shop front. The broader the audience the better.

Theres a few non-comic groups that we can annoy for support - the visual artists ireland has always been great for getting non-comic people into 24 hour comic day and the Illustrators guild of ireland and their blog scamp, creativeireland, Artlinks, the irish craft association who are giving some funding to 24 hour comics day this year. It is well worth approaching Easons, thou i think we need have ironed out all the hows and whats before hand.

I for one would like to see this event kept focused on zines and mini comics as much as possible as that was the main reason Fysh started this thread to encourage new people to the irish comics scene to get their stuff together. For those who have the money and means to put together shinny, printed, full colour work, thats fantastic but I wouldn't want anyone else put off thinking they can't submit some of their black and white mini comics as well. The irish craft association might be up for having a workshop sometime in spetember in book binding and zine construction if enough people show interest.

Nathanual

Hey there...

For the free comic book day thing you can count me in. Rob just let me know what kind of numbers you are talking about.

Talk soon
Stephen

Down but not out....