Age of Consent defence of reasonable belief

Belfast

Should all teenagers be tattooed with the date they reach the age of consent?

This would eliminate any uncertainty.

Short of this how can you tell if some one is of the "Age of Consent"

I doubt it would be politicly viable.

I am open to other ideas as to how to tell what someones age is.

Liam Byrne

It's an interesting question...and the whole thing is a minefield.

You have very young people in a pub or club, and therefore - IMHO - you're entitled to believe that the door staff have done their job and made sure they're old enough; but it's up to you to prove it later ? Nuts, particularly when you consider that everyone tries to look older - e.g. did anyone see the 12-year-old on Britain's Got Talent last night ? She looked AT LEAST 15.

There are MAJOR problems with this, because children DO need to be protected, but they also need to keep THEMSELVES out of trouble, at least to some extent.

1) Don't pretend to be older to get in somewhere
2) Don't drink
3) Keep your friends around
4) Say no

Plus, the parents should at least have a fair idea of what the teenagers are up to (whole other debate as to where that burden of responsibility lies)

But I can't for the life of me figure out how this one is workable; one part of me is wondering how I'd feel if anything - god forbid - happened one of my nieces, so the more protection the better, but the rest of me can see where the "how do you know what age they are" is a complete minefield.....where's the standard "innocent until PROVEN guilty for the alleged "perpetrator" ? What if one of my nephews hooked up with someone who told him they were 17 ?

Thank f**k I'm well beyond the age of hooking up with teens/early 20s.....

As for the "politically viable" - that's the problem with this country.....there's lip service to every issue, but loads of things are dumped because they wouldn't be popular, while the nanny state hammers the rest of us with more red tape so that it looks like something is being done.

wes

This is definetly a confusing issue. As it stands it best for the adult to play it extra safe if there any sure in anyway about a person age.

seamus

I would lament the loss of the "reasonable mistake" as a defence for any crime.

The fact is, this specific issue is a relatively uncommon problem to arise (an adult being jailed for unknowlingly having sex with someone underage) but unfortunately it's been confused by the mass hysteria surrounding peadophilia.

I don't believe we need to come up with any kind of "method" of making sure everyone knows that they're having sex with someone who's over-age (such as tattoos or age cards). The introduction of a nationwide ID system would serve far more useful purposes, such as preventing underagers from buying cigarettes and alcohol, and providing clubs with a reasonable method of verifying age. Any system put in place purely to avoid sexual misunderstandings, would be a gross waste of energy and resources.

Where underage sex occurs and one person is a good deal more mature, they usually know the age of the other person, because they're usually related to them.

Where the sex occurs between two people who are similar in age, I don't believe it should be a criminal offence. I would almost go as far as to apply the "seven-year rule" (i.e. divide your age in two and add seven) for any relationships under 17. Where either party is under 14, I would take a serious look at fining the parents.

It's a thorny issue because there's no one "point" at which someone suddenly becomes sexually mature, and most people are eager to pretend that the issue even exists.

brianthebard

I think that the age of consent should be lowered in line with most European countries, which are around the 14 or 15 mark. One of the problems with the age of consent is that children are not educated about sex and pregnancy etcetra until they are 16 or 17, by which time there will probably have been a few teen pregnancy drop outs in their class (there certainly was in mine). Basically once children are biologically capable of getting one another pregnant they need to be treated as adults.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

I think that the age of consent should be lowered in line with most European countries, which are around the 14 or 15 mark. One of the problems with the age of consent is that children are not educated about sex and pregnancy etcetra until they are 16 or 17, by which time there will probably have been a few teen pregnancy drop outs in their class (there certainly was in mine). Basically once children are biologically capable of getting one another pregnant they need to be treated as adults.

I don't think teenagers having sex with each other is too much of a problem (within reason obviously) it's when you get older people targeting young people that the law needs to step in hard.

I don't see a problem with two 15 year olds having protected sex, but I have a huge issue with a 15 year old and a 35 year old having sex.

brianthebard

Again we should treat those 15 year olds as adults. I don't really know how a 15 year olds mind works any more, but if they are naiive about sex and relationships they may find the interests of a 35 year old exciting or dangerous or whatever, instead of leachy. Would you have the same issue with a 20 year old and a 40 year old being together? At some stage we have to let people be responsible for their own actions, and wrapping them in cotton wool for as long as possible is not the way to do it.

Fratton Fred

brianthebard wrote: »

Again we should treat those 15 year olds as adults. I don't really know how a 15 year olds mind works any more, but if they are naiive about sex and relationships they may find the interests of a 35 year old exciting or dangerous or whatever, instead of leachy. Would you have the same issue with a 20 year old and a 40 year old being together? At some stage we have to let people be responsible for their own actions, and wrapping them in cotton wool for as long as possible is not the way to do it.

I agree, but you also have to draw a line somewhere.

EamonnKeane

In 1860 the average menarche age was 16.6 years, in 1920 at 14.6, in 1950 at 13.1 and 1980, 12.5 years, nowadays under 12. It is unreasonable to claim that more rapid physical maturation is not matched - to some extent - by more rapid psychological maturation.

Belfast

seamus wrote: »

I don't believe we need to come up with any kind of "method" of making sure everyone knows that they're having sex with someone who's over-age (such as tattoos or age cards). The introduction of a nationwide ID system would serve far more useful purposes, such as preventing underagers from buying cigarettes and alcohol, and providing clubs with a reasonable method of verifying age. Any system put in place purely to avoid sexual misunderstandings, would be a gross waste of energy and resources.

May I see your Id ? to make sure you are not lying to me about your age before we have sex.

Not sure that going to happen.

Should they be tested for drugs or drink to make sure they are not so impaired that they cannot give informed consent.

Belfast

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's an interesting question...and the whole thing is a minefield.

There are MAJOR problems with this, because children DO need to be protected,

The issue is not about protecting children it about protecting teenagers.

ChocolateSauce

Assuming it's consentual sex (which I will now assume), two thoughts come to mind.

1: If the young are old enough to decide to have sex, they are old enough to have sex.

2: It is my opinion that most people who might have sex with a 14 year old, but don't, do so not because they are morally opposed to it, but because society is.

seamus

Belfast wrote: »

May I see your Id ? to make sure you are not lying to me about your age before we have sex.

Not sure that going to happen.

That's kind of my point
Why would we implement an ID system just to prevent sexual misunderstandings? Surely there are hundreds of more worthy and simpler reasons to implement it?

lee_arama

Ah this is some minefield big time. The bottom line is that society is evolving at a pace which the law cannot match. Like it or loathe it we cannot deny that children today are exposed to sex and violence far in excess of anything we might have seen at the same age.

Fatal Attraction was one of those movies which my parents went bananas over upon finding out that I'd managed to rent it out but there's far worse on offer for a younger age group today. (I saw AvP:Requiem over the New Year and I was nauseated at what I saw, and this was freely available to 16s?)

A long time ago (10-11 years back) I frequented a certain nightclub in town. Picked up some nice cutie at closing. Went back to where I was staying and we did the bad thing. All reasonably normal so far? Precautions were taken, condoms used, all good. She was 19, only a matter of months younger than I.

3 days later I find out she is in fact 16. Once I'd stopped panicking I called a solicitor buddy of mine who told me to relax, that given the circumstances I was in decent legal shape: 16, while still a minor age in Ireland at the time was considered a gray area.

She knew what she was doing at the time and it was she who initiated everything. Who would have gotten the blame had she gone crying to Daddy I wonder?

They might be physically more mature now than ever before but I can't find much to suggest that their emotional or pyschological state has kept pace...

rowlandbrowner

I guess a law to allow circumstances like “I was in an over 18’s club and it was her idea, she told me she was 19” though It could potentially happen to anybody would allow for too many loopholes that could be potentially abused. Laws aren’t tailored for the individual, drink driving limits for example.

Plenty of girls put themselves in harm’s way by drinking far too much & lying and flirting their way into clubs when they are underage, no law is going to help them when their own disregard for existing laws is the cause of the problem.
but if a 30 year old guy is feeding them full of drink so he can get his jolly’s he should of course be held responsible for his actions.

You just have to hope you’re not the unlucky guy who innocently picks up the wrong girl in town.

the idea of Laws should be to help guide us in the direction of responsible actions.

Belfast

The problem is there is no fool proof practical way of knowing what age the person you want to have sex with.

I am not sure any new law is going to solve this problem.

ChocolateSauce

I must ask, what the hell is wrong with society?

It boggles the rational mind that people think children exposed to the existence of sex will somehow come out "wrong". What harm does it do a child if s/he sees a sex scene in a movie? What harm is done when I child wanders into his mother's room, picks through her things as nosey kids do, and finds a dildo, or finds his fathers porn?

None! There is not one shred of evidence which shows harm is done to children who are passively exposed to sex. It is a natural, fun and harmless past time which everyone does (are at least everyone wants to be doing), so why not tell kids about it? Why not explain it to them and say, "when you're older, you'll do this too". To deny this simple truth is simply to lie.

In fact, not exposing them is harmful. Now, thank god that the overwhelmingly vast majority of children find out anyway, but suppose they didn't? They'd be ill equipped to enter the adult society in which all of us live. Sex and sexuality is a part of adult life, and it begins in the early teenage years. Sex is healthy for the person and society as a whole. Right across the board, the more open people are about sex, the healthier and more mature their society is. People who shriek about kids being exposed to sex are almost universally conservative prudes who use their own misguided attitudes instead of evidence and common sense to judge what is ok for children to be exposed to. It's worst in the US, where kids may see extreme violence as a matter of routine, but if Janet Jacksons nipple pops out their fragile little minds will be warped.

Please.