Are two and four car DART sets a thing of the past?

Run_to_da_hills

Out an a walk last night I saw 6 & 8 car dart sets travelling back and forewards on the Bray route. They seemed almost empty and a bit of a waste having such a long train at that time. Are the 2 & 4 car darts now a thing of the past?

FedFrank2

i have seen 4 car sets running at the weekends, mostly the 8600 japs, and just before they went away for refurb, LHB sets 18 and 28 were in a 4 car formation, at peak times too! the overcrowding was something else. 2 car sets are certainly history at this point id say.

TirEoghain

I think there is just the one 4 car set in service now, not sure which set it is, but I'd say it's one of the non air conditioned sets, as these are usually coupled in fleet number order, and from the last I heard, the 11+12 set is sitting as a spare in fairview.

MysticalSoul

Nope, during peak time the end of last year have been on a DART that was undercarriaged with only 4, and it was a nightmare - back to the days of sardines in a tin

Run_to_da_hills

irishamethyst wrote: »

Nope, during peak time the end of last year have been on a DART that was undercarriaged with only 4, and it was a nightmare - back to the days of sardines in a tin

Hopefully that will stop with the return of the refurbished 8100's and repaired 8200's

afatbollix

would it cost more to run 8 cars compared to 4

L1011

Yes, electricity and cleaning them afterwards would cost me.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

Yes, electricity and cleaning them afterwards would cost me.

Surely more frequent 2 and 4 car sets would be better than less frequent 6 and 8 car sets.

loyatemu

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Surely more frequent 2 and 4 car sets would be better than less frequent 6 and 8 car sets.

would require more drivers - not much spare track capacity at peak times anyway.

TirEoghain

The dwell time at each station would be much longer with a shorter train too, unless everyone waiting happened to be standing beside where the train stopped.

Run_to_da_hills

TirEoghain wrote: »

The dwell time at each station would be much longer with a shorter train too, unless everyone waiting happened to be standing beside where the train stopped.

It wouldn't take much to have a bill board with advanced notice on the capacity of the next train approaching and have the platforms parked out accordingly. This is done in many countries.

loyatemu

TirEoghain wrote: »

The dwell time at each station would be much longer with a shorter train too, unless everyone waiting happened to be standing beside where the train stopped.

well this is specifically because they have lengthened all the platforms to accomodate 8 car trains, and even when they run shorter trains they still pull up to the end of the platform forcing everyone down the other end to run and jump on the last carriage :mad:

previously they had marks on the platform to ensure that 2, 4, and 6 cars trains all stopped more or less in the middle of the platform, but these seem to have been removed.

L1011

NIR passengers appear to be capable of standing the right end of platforms for services operated by 3 car C3Ks...

However, theres still the operational hassle of decoupling the 6/8 car units required for peak time services in to smaller units for later operation.

Beta Ray Bill

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Out an a walk last night I saw 6 & 8 car dart sets travelling back and forewards on the Bray route. They seemed almost empty and a bit of a waste having such a long train at that time. Are the 2 & 4 car darts now a thing of the past?

Ya see making a four car DART in the evening times to save money would make far to much sense for a company like Irish rail.

However in saying that they do have a 4 car dart which often runs in the morning times close to around 7.30am (at Raheny). and might I add... it is packed. REALLY PACKED!

Y see its all about being as stupid as you possibly can with Irish rail. and they excel at it.

I would imagine I have more experience than 90% of the people out there with Irish rail and I can tell you they are one of the most poorly managed companies out there.

If I were put in charge of them the first thing Id do is sack the person that organizes the timetable. the timing of some trains is stupid. 2 trains in the space of 5 min then none for approx 20... at 8am on a Monday morning!!!!

Are they for real?

KC61

I understand that it is planned to introduce a clockface timetable for DART and all other services through Connolly at the next timetable change, which will mean a DART every 10 minutes at peak and 15 minutes off-peak, with all other services built around this in a clockface pattern.

As far as reducing train lengths in the evening, remember that this would require additional crews to move the unused portions either back to Fairview from Howth, Malahide or Bray, or to sidings in Bray, something that may not be available....and we are by now aware that train drivers are not something that IÉ are currently awash with.

ixoy

Even if they change to this clock face pattern, will they implement it in a sensible matter on the Northern line portion of the DART line? At weekends, you'll have a Northern Rail serving Portmarnock/Malahide, then 3 minutes later a DART to Malahide, and then nothing at all to either station for another 40 minutes or more... why not space out these times more sensibly?

Also do they have other criteria for determining what stations the Northern line stops at - in particular there's a 17:44 train from Tara that stops at Howth Junction and Malahide but not Portmarnock, despite the fact that trains either side of that also stop at Howth Junction (but not Portmarnock). So do they make honest attempts to judge usage at stations? I'd be shocked if they do..

KC61

ixoy wrote: »

Even if they change to this clock face pattern, will they implement it in a sensible matter on the Northern line portion of the DART line? At weekends, you'll have a Northern Rail serving Portmarnock/Malahide, then 3 minutes later a DART to Malahide, and then nothing at all to either station for another 40 minutes or more... why not space out these times more sensibly?

Also do they have other criteria for determining what stations the Northern line stops at - in particular there's a 17:44 train from Tara that stops at Howth Junction and Malahide but not Portmarnock, despite the fact that trains either side of that also stop at Howth Junction (but not Portmarnock). So do they make honest attempts to judge usage at stations? I'd be shocked if they do..

As I understand it the plan is for regular interval services on DART, Commuter and InterCity services which should see any of the long gaps currently present in the schedule eliminated. This is (as I think you can appreciate) a rather mammoth task as it basically means starting with a blank sheet and recasting the timetables from scratch.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

I understand that it is planned to introduce a clockface timetable for DART and all other services through Connolly at the next timetable change, which will mean a DART every 10 minutes at peak and 15 minutes off-peak, with all other services built around this in a clockface pattern.

So in 2009 we'll have 4 trains an hour off peak and 6 during peak times? Welcome to the future folks...

FedFrank2

in terms of a more regular frequency, i think the present signalling system allows for 12 trains per direction per hour through the city centre. This is to include maynooth line services, rosslare line services and drogheda line services, so more regular services is out of the question. I believe the next part of the DART upgrade is to facilitate 16 trains per direction per hour in a major resignalling project.

Line speed is also a major factor, affected not only by track condition and curvature etc, but by level crossings too. There are 4 level crossings between Grand Canal Dock and Booterstown, and due to this the linespeed is reduced. This affects all services, especially at peak times, and sometimes a "bottleneck" occurs. So increasing frequency also wouldnt work here, without getting rid of the level crossings, and last time I checked, there wouldnt be much room to build under/overbridges!

I travelled to Bray recently too, and the section between Dun Laoghaire and Sandycove (the concrete section) was incredibly slow, 5/10 mph I'd say, no more. is that normally the case?

And I think quad tracking like the Kildare Route Project is out of the question, no physical room to do it.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

So in 2009 we'll have 4 trains an hour off peak and 6 during peak times? Welcome to the future folks...

That is the current basic DART service pattern, except that the times are not at regular intervals, but are all over the place, with Maynooth, Drogheda, Belfast and Rosslare trains all slotting in and skewing the basic DART pattern.

What is planned for next year is a regular interval clockface DART service pattern, without exception, at a 10 minute peak and 15 minute off-peak frequency, with Maynooth and Drogheda Commuter services and Sligo, Rosslare and Belfast Intercity services all slotting in around that with regular interval service patterns as well.

That HAS to be an improvement on what is currently on offer, which is a hotch-potch of gaps between trains.

When the city centre is resignalled, there will hopefully be further improvements in frequency.

markpb

Don't get me wrong, one of the reasons I never used the Dart when I lived alongside it was the silly gaps in the timetable so I applaud their effort at fixing it. At the end of the day, what we'll get is a service with half the frequence than when the Dart first opened. Four trains an hour is a pitiful excuse for a mass transit system in a city.

I look forward to the resignalling project and the interconnector but I fear that it'll be built with enough capacity for 2008 and by 2020, they'll be kludging in timetable changes again and we'll be back where we started.

Ham'nd'egger

FedFrank2 wrote: »

in terms of a more regular frequency, i think the present signalling system allows for 12 trains per direction per hour through the city centre. This is to include maynooth line services, rosslare line services and drogheda line services, so more regular services is out of the question. I believe the next part of the DART upgrade is to facilitate 16 trains per direction per hour in a major resignalling project.

Line speed is also a major factor, affected not only by track condition and curvature etc, but by level crossings too. There are 4 level crossings between Grand Canal Dock and Booterstown, and due to this the linespeed is reduced. This affects all services, especially at peak times, and sometimes a "bottleneck" occurs. So increasing frequency also wouldnt work here, without getting rid of the level crossings, and last time I checked, there wouldnt be much room to build under/overbridges!

I travelled to Bray recently too, and the section between Dun Laoghaire and Sandycove (the concrete section) was incredibly slow, 5/10 mph I'd say, no more. is that normally the case?
.

You are correct; there is currently ability to move 12 trains per hour around Connolly's hinterland. This is the main bottleneck in the Dublin network until such time as it is resignalled.

The level crossings in and around D. 4 don't affect the speed of services greatly (40MPH in this section as far as Dun Laoghaire); the proximity of stations and the requirement to stop at them is the real hinderance for DART speeds. This in turn holds up the Wexford services which get snarled up behind slower stopping DART services. The section to Glastule is just 20MPH inside the "concrete" section due to it's sharp curve, poorer visibility and narrow cutting. On occasion, slower speeds can apply if there is any engineering staff on the line for safety reasons.

Run_to_da_hills

Hamndegger wrote: »

The section to Glastule is just 20MPH inside the "concrete" section due to it's sharp curve, poorer visibility and narrow cutting.

God help them when they get the Metro up and running :eek::eek:

Ham'nd'egger

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

God help them when they get the Metro up and running :eek::eek:

Metro wont be relying on 19th century cuttings through granite, well I hope it won't be!

Run_to_da_hills

Hamndegger wrote: »

Metro wont be relying on 19th century cuttings through granite, well I hope it won't be!

Whether it going to be cut through granite or through muck it is still going to be have "poor visibility" and even "narrower cuttings" if they go for the deep bore option rather than cut and cover.

L1011

Trains in underground systems have VERY different requirements for visibility and "cutting" (tunnel) size than overground systems!