Can't manage dog- can anything be done?

Semele

My family have an 11 month old Jack Russell. We live in the country but near a busy main road and there are farmers on both sides who really don't like dogs. He's a great dog- turned out bigger than we expected (we thought he was a miniature but he just kept growing!) but is really good-natured and intelligent, and the whole family like him.

The problem is that we can't control him at all. He was mainly bought as company for my grandmother but due to his size and limitless energy he can't be in the house for long or unsupervised and he's actually so strong she can't make him do anything- he pushes his way in when the door is open and she can't stop him or get him out again!

He won't stay around the house at all unless there's constant activity- if you let him wander in and out or if people are coming and going he stays but otherwise he spends all day roaming through fields unless called. The problem with this is that he's started chasing hens belonging to our neighbour. He's not a vicious dog and is just playing but he's caught hens a few times (fortunately we've rescued them) and it's really a matter of time till he kills one. The neighbour had already complained that the hens won't stay around the farmyard anymore as they are afraid of him. I actually think some of the other farmers who live a bit further away would shoot him if they caught him at this though.

We've don't want to have to keep him tied up as its not fair, but this is what we end up doing while everyone is at work as my gran is scared of something happening when she's on her own and can't manage him. We tried putting a canvas muzzle on him, which worked great for a while as he seemed a bit more subdued, but he has started chasing the hens again even though he can't catch them and has got the muzzle off a few times. He's been neutered too which I hoped would calm him down but it hasn't.

He should be all right- we have plenty of space for him but can't get him to stay around when there's nothing going on to keep him interested! This isn't helped by the fact that the farms are constantly busy and attract him, plus some of our neighbours have dogs that he follows around.

We are considering re-homing him for his own safety but would obviously prefer not to. What can we do though? He just seems untrainable. Any advice on how to keep him around and stop him chasing hens would be most welcome!

peasant

The secret is called:

A fence !

Our man in Havana

The only thing is a good strong high fence - green plastic coated wire is good & strong - you need to bury a bit a few inches to a foot - terriers can & will dig! This is the only way to keep the dog safe & the neighbours happy! Him chasing chickens is not on & if he strays near sheep he will be shot!

Semele

Thanks guys, a fence is obviously the next thing as we can't keep him tied up forever. What I was wondering though is how best to train him to be obedient as he's great with sitting on command or anything that involves attention from people, but once he's running off or sees another animal he ignores everything! Would walking him on a lead around the hens to get him used to them help? The neighbour has dogs himself who pay no attention to the hens as they're so used to them.

Also I was wondering (not that its relevant to the issue at this stage) whether his roaming behaviour might have aything to do with the breed he is? He's definitely the most independent dog I've ever had. We've had both bigger and smaller breeds before and most of them have been fiercely territorial and not wandered much outside the grounds.

peasant

We have a little terrier mix, she's the cleverest of clever dogs, you could teach her anything.

Anything but not to disappear and forget everything she ever learned once she sees, hears or smells something interesting.

Some dogs just are like that and no training will change that.

hadook

The one thing that's hitting me while reading this is that you don't mention what sort of exercise you're giving him. Jrt's are known to be incredibly active and apparently need a firm hand and plenty of exercise (I have relatively lazy dogs, I wouldn't get an energetic terrier if you paid me).

Does he go for walks with you? Or do you just let him exercise himself? I can't say I'm surprised that he's not staying around when there's nothing of interest for him there.

Obviously you need to fence in an area for him. But, from the sounds of it, you also need to address the boredom issue.

Morganna

I would say fence an area for him with a kennel in it .Also exercise him a lot and how about getting him to use his brain why not do some obedience with him.Terriers are hunters and he will defo start killing .

Intothesea

I'd agree with Hadook. JRs are notoriously
hyperactive and intelligent dogs. At 11 months the
golden period for training has passed - but given their
innate smarts there is very good chance that
you can (literally) bring him to heel.

First thing I would tackle is basic training with positive
reinforcement. First make him very attentive to
his name. Move around (or better still, get your
Grandmother to) randomly calling out his name
and rewarding with a tidbit when he looks at/
pays attention to you. This will establish a desire
to listen and respond. Next basic commands:
sit, stay, lie down, come here. All practised
within the house, and when this is good,
outside close to the house. The most important
of these ultimately is 'come here'. JRs need
very repetitive convincing of who's really in
charge, be prepared!

Little things: always make him the last party
to enter a doorway (use sit and stay), never
let him on any furniture or be physically higher
than you - these are both important signals to
any dog.

The best way to get results from training is to
physically wear him out a bit with a leashed walk
(learning how to heel and walk on leash is another
day's work) first and then carry out the training
with reward (food and/or verbal praise). After this
it's advisable to reward with a game that he
enjoys (hide and seek with toys for example).

There are plenty of books and online articles on
dog-training about, have a look. The most
difficult thing is to get a handle on dog psychology
if you like, and how to establish a positive bond
and reasonable control.

I wouldn't use a fence to solve these issues but
it can only help in the long run.

Hope that helps

peasant

Intothesea wrote: »

First thing I would tackle is basic training with positive
reinforcement. First make him very attentive to
his name. Move around (or better still, get your
Grandmother to) randomly calling out his name
and rewarding with a tidbit when he looks at/
pays attention to you. This will establish a desire
to listen and respond. Next basic commands:
sit, stay, lie down, come here. All practised
within the house, and when this is good,
outside close to the house. The most important
of these ultimately is 'come here'. JRs need
very repetitive convincing of who's really in
charge, be prepared!

Little things: always make him the last party
to enter a doorway (use sit and stay), never
let him on any furniture or be physically higher
than you - these are both important signals to
any dog.

The best way to get results from training is to
physically wear him out a bit with a leashed walk
(learning how to heel and walk on leash is another
day's work) first and then carry out the training
with reward (food and/or verbal praise). After this
it's advisable to reward with a game that he
enjoys (hide and seek with toys for example).

There are plenty of books and online articles on
dog-training about, have a look. The most
difficult thing is to get a handle on dog psychology
if you like, and how to establish a positive bond
and reasonable control.

I wouldn't use a fence to solve these issues but
it can only help in the long run.

Hope that helps

This is all very well (except for the doorway bit, which is rubbish ) but it still doesn't solve the core of the problem.

You may have the best trained and most obedient Terrier (or any other dog) in the world that performs faultlessly when you're around ...what the dog does when you aren't around though ...that's a different matter.

A gaggle of chicken running around in front of a dog with strong hunting instincts (like your typical Terrier) is just too big a temptation not to be acted upon.

A fence is the only secure way to keep dog and chickens separate.

By all means, train that dog ...but get a fence as well.

BeerWolf

How effective are invisible fences [the one where you set up a perimeter with use of a proximity electric collar] [e.g. - Canifence]?

My area [deep countryside] is just 'fenced' up by horrid thorny hedges between the neighbours and along the road, so I'd like to think of this other alternative which should be a lot cheaper.

Got a dog recently and she occasionally runs around in the field opposite the house across the road if not watched. She's pretty well behaved though otherwise.

carwash_2006

How effective the radio fences are depends on your dog and how well you do the initial training. Certain breeds of dogs have a very high pain tolerance and if they are chasing something won't notice the shock, then when they are finished chasing whatever they can't get home.

If you determine that your dog has a low enough pain threshold for the fence to be effective it is very important that you complete the intitial training/conditioning period before you trust the fence.

I thought at one stage that I would use one of these fences and paid something like 300 euro for it, never to use it. On learning a bit more about it I realised that my dogs would not notice the shock if they were chasing something, they are part border part patterdale terrier, so they are extremely tough with a very high pain tolerance. I ended up paying less than that to fence a 200 square meter area that is plenty for them to tear around in during the day when I'm out, then they go for long walks in the evening.

Do remember that most dogs will not excercise themselves no matter how large an area they have and if they do that excercise will not use as much energy as a a good stimulating walk with their owner where they are forced to use their brain as well. Combine the walk with a couple of short training sessions and you will have a very happy dog.

luckat

Invisible fences work just as well as the desire of the dog. If the dog sees something exciting and fun (wheee! hens!!!) he'll quickly learn that dashing through hurts him, but doesn't last.

A proper fence is the only thing that will keep your dog alive, to be brutally frank.

I had a young pup with hens, and the only thing that trained her to leave fowl strictly alone was time spent in the garden with her and the hens and very strict and angry lectures if she so much as *looked* at one.

Your dog sounds young, but also terribly bored.

I absolutely agree with Haidooks about the exercise - a good long walk or two is essential for a dog's happiness.

Buy a book called Don't Shoot the Dog - the best training manual I know - and you'll learn how to train your dog and have years of fun. (The author's website is www.clickertraining.com)

An investment in a fence and that book are the minimum for your dog's sake. And if you take up running and run with him in the early morning, you'll do yourself and him a lot of good.

Whispered

The shock fences don't work very well at all. Dogs learn to escape and besides the whole thing is based on causing pain to your dog, they're not very humane. (although better I suppose than being hit by a car or shot by a farmer, if they do work) I've also seen cases where the dog continues to escape, despite the shock and starts going bald where the box thing is. Cannot be good for them!

Semele

Thanks again to everyone who has replied. I'm away from home most of the time but will be there this week for a visit and I think a serious discussion is in order!

We have looked into those electric fences and would be prepared to pay, but I would put money on the fact that he's the type of dog who wouldn't pay a blind bit of notice to it! A physical fence seems to be our only realistic option but I'm pretty sure he's resourceful enough to get around that too. Still, it will have to be done.

A few people have commented on boredom and I would agree. He tends to be exercised a lot at weekends but only sporadically during the week. Unfortunately, my mum works long hours, my gran isn't up to walks and although my little sister gets out for huge games of football with him etc, she's too young to be able to walk him on the main road. I'm going to really get it through to her this week though that if she wants to keep him she has to get out of the house and get him running around and using his brain a bit EVERY DAY! Does anyone know of any books on training dogs that are aimed at children of around 10? She loves him and is really enthusiastic about training him but is rubbish at it as she's so inconsistent and tries to teach him 20 things at once. I don't expect her to take full responsibility for it but she might as well be usefully entertaining him!

I'd considered moving him in with me but I live in the city and although I'd be able to devote proper time to exercising and training him, the payoff would be the lack of open space and time left alone in my flat, which seemed even more unfair on him.


Thanks again though- things will definitely be changing. Any further comments would be appreciated!

peasant

Semele wrote: »

Does anyone know of any books on training dogs that are aimed at children of around 10? She loves him and is really enthusiastic about training him but is rubbish at it as she's so inconsistent and tries to teach him 20 things at once. I don't expect her to take full responsibility for it but she might as well be usefully entertaining him!

Entertaining the dog in semi-structured way is the best you can expect from her though.

Any Terrier worth its name will outsmart a 10 year old kid twice or three times over, no bother. The actual training will have to be done by someone who can command a bit more respect.

But be that as it is, the fence is still a must. You might be able to train a Terrier to regard your chicken as his chicken and guard them intstead of hunt them. But the neighbours' chicken? ...not a chance!

Intothesea

peasant wrote: »

This is all very well (except for the doorway bit, which is rubbish )

It's not rubbish, ask any professional dog trainer.

peasant wrote: »

You may have the best trained and most obedient Terrier (or any other dog) in
the world that performs faultlessly
when you're around ...what the dog does when you aren't around though ...
that's a different matter.

A gaggle of chicken running around in front of a dog with strong hunting instincts
(like your typical Terrier) is just too big a temptation not to be acted upon.

Well spotted The biggest problem facing the OP is the
dog's total lack of training. Throwing up a fence will still
leave a bored, frustrated dog who can't be dealt with in
pleasurable ways (a calm well-trained dog can certainly
have a life outside, being taken on car-trips etc). I'm
assuming this JR is absolutely unreliable to do anything
with, hence the need for being left behind with a rope
around his neck.

peasant wrote: »

A fence is the only secure way
to keep dog and chickens separate.

By all means, train that dog ...but get a fence as well.

That's exactly what I meant by: I wouldn't use a fence to
solve these issues but it can only help in the long run.

Intothesea

Semele wrote: »

Does anyone know of any books
on training dogs that are aimed at children of around 10?

I think the best you can do there is carry out
training sessions with your sister and let her
watch. When a command has been learned,
show her how to use it appropriately with the
dog. Two training sessions in one

Peasant is right in that dogs are in league with
young children and won't yield all that readily to
their control. In effect you have to teach the dog
to obey the commands of the child (i.e. he's still
pleasing you). Other simple things you can do to
create the right power balance: have your sister
feed him by hand, only offering the food when a
command has been followed. If the food is wet,
put the bowl down but physically insist that he's
getting nowhere near it until he performs X
command. You can attack all this gently, one
command in a week. The whole idea is to use
one simple command to make important things
like food or going out dependant on pleasing
you. A smart dog will soon get the picture, it
just needs some consistency.

Good luck OP

Boris25

I agree fully with what everyone is saying on here but have to say please please get a fence up.

Training your dog and giving him or her adequate exercise is a necessary thing but will not replace a fence or a secure pen when you are not there. I also hate to see dogs tied up.

I have heard tonight of 2 dogs I know being shot for killing sheep. A sad and unnecessary thing that has happened.

Also a few days ago we hit a dog on the road. It was a horrible thing to happen especially with us being dog owners and lovers. The dog we hit ran infront of our car, there was nothing we could do. Thankfully the dog was ok it was lucky. The dog ran out from a garden on a main road with an electric fence on top of the wall. I can say now first hand that these don't work

Sigma Force

There are a few companies that do dog runs if the area can't be fenced off. There are a list of dog trainers on irishanimals.ie
Also check his diet too much protein (aparently) can make dogs extra hyper. Jrs are active dogs but they shouldn't be bouncing off the walls if you know what I mean. In the mean time extra walkies to burn off the energy, there might even be a dog walker or friendly neighbour in your area that will take him for extra ones until you get to the route of the problem.
Sounds like at the moment he thinks he's ruling the roost.

I agree with the doorway thing as well don't let him go first, perhaps away from the house teach him to sit and stay (using treats as a reward or clicker training) then when you get to the door tell him to sit and stay while you go in once you are in tell him to come to you.

Says I with two dogs who barge past me lol. It does work though.

LegacyUser

Ian Dunbar is very good. If you are interested in reading up, he is excellent.

kerrysgold

I think the first thing you need to get done is put a fence or a run up, as if he gets run over by a car or shot by a farmer you won't have a dog to train anyway.

and then you need to make sure he is exercised every day to burn off his energy.

work on getting him obedient, take him to training classes if need be. the extra socialising would be good for him too. speaking of which, was he socialised much when he was a pup? i.e. with the hens, other dogs, people etc.

BeauZak

Ian Dunbar is coming to Ireland too in September

I would advise you look at the solution on www.cilldara.ie, get to a training class and get some prof help asap, make sure he is neutered, on a good diet and get a lot of KONG's.

LegacyUser

He is indeed. Been toying over going to the conference myself but can't justify the cost of a weekend conference against the benefits of doing a Dog Training Ireland course instead. (Mods, I am not affiliated with this company, just sharing info). They've learnt a lot so far on the other courses. Another reason why I couldn't justify going would be that a full weekend away from the doggies would kill me!!

I have read Ian Dunbar's book and think he has a far better approach than "The Dog Whisperer" (ssssshhhhhhht!!!).

Kongs are great, but a word of awarding make sure its the right size for the dog or they loose interest fast. Get some nice chicken and stuff it with kibble too. A lot of chewing and happiness from the Kongs