public sector questions

jon1981

ok mods, move this to where you see fit!


ok i work in the private sector.

I have to do 39 hour week.
I get 22 hols a year.
I have to do performance management twice yearly
I have to do monthly appraisals

If my performance is not good, i get a reflected not good pay rise and like wise a bad bonus if any.
when times are tough we see a pay freeze.
If my monthly appraisals are poor consistantly i get fired, simple!
My pension is not gauranteed and at the mercy of the stock market.
I don't get promoted to the next grade/level merely becuase im in the job x years.
If i sit back and do nothing, it will be noticed.
If management is suddenly reorganised, the leftover managers are not left on the bench with huge salaries, they are redeployed or made redundant.
I cannot request a pay rise without first putting a case as to why i think i deserve it or how i am going to benefit the company.


Also and most importantly if i dont perform my job well it can impact the business, revenue and obviously my fellow colleagues.


now my point is, does the public sector employ any means to ensure staff are productive?
Do they get bonuses and pay rises just because they are due?
Are there really loads of middle managers managing nobody?... draining up funds that could be used elsewhere such as on health professionals or social workers.


I'm just curious because i heard a figure that the HSE employs more admin staff (in terms of population ratio) than the NHS in the UK yet we have such a small population compared with the UK. how is they manage better than we do? do they run the NHS more like a private sector company and not an exclusive "long lifers club"?

currently the HSE employs 1 person per 50 people in the ROI. given that we have about 1 doctor per 357 people and 1 nurse per 70 people... shocking stuff!!

Rob_l

OP what do you know about the "public sector" people don't get promoted just because they are there a certain amount of years there is either testing done followed by interviews or for internal promotions an interview board is created and there will always be an external member to oversee them to ensure fairness

jon1981

i don't proclaim to know anything, hence the questions, but i know people(friends who laugh in my face about working in the private sector) have moved up grades without interview, and that is fact.

Kimbot

jon1981 wrote: »

now my point is, does the public sector employ any means to ensure staff are productive?
Do they get bonuses and pay rises just because they are due?
Are there really loads of middle managers managing nobody?... draining up funds that could be used elsewhere such as on health professionals or social workers.

PMDS (Performance Management and Development System) is implemented in the Civil Service general grades.
This means you write your role down at the start of the year and set realistic targets for yourself to achieve within the year, if you fail to meet them then your increment can be deferred.

I know a lad in the service that only got one pay rise in over 7 years because of sick leave etc so no they don't get it just because it due.
Middle managers managing nobody: hell yes there is and its a joke TBH. I would like to see them out the door as it would create more efficiency as far as I am concerned.

I have 7/8 years in the service and I have worked my rear off, gotten all my yearly increases because I either achieved my goals or passed them by a good bit. I have been promoted twice and had to do exams and interviews to get both. If you work hard its worth it but if you think your in for an easy time then you may think again as the service is starting to change and its going to clearout the deadwood soon enough from what I hear.

kaizersoze1980

99.9% of civil servants got pay increases recently according to the news 2 days ago.

I seriously doubt if they were all deserving of them!

jon1981

jonny24ie wrote: »

If you work hard its worth it but if you think your in for an easy time then you may think again as the service is starting to change and its going to clearout the deadwood soon enough from what I hear.

too long overdue, but then the revolts start and the country grinds to a halt.

Kimbot

jon1981 wrote: »

i don't proclaim to know anything, hence the questions, but i know people(friends who laugh in my face about working in the private sector) have moved up grades without interview, and that is fact.

Yes on seniority you can get promoted but it will be after 10 + years in the grade.

Only other time I heard about no interview etc was for certain IT grades in Revenue and Social Welfare, you got promoted from CO to CO Programmer and when you done 2 years successfully you got promoted to Staff Officer.

ldw

As stated in a previous post the big "Elephant in the room" situation with regard to the HSE is a derth of middle-management with little or no necessity.

The fact that there were no redundancies when the original health-boards were amalgamated is astounding.....reminds me of a communist "jobs fo all" type of attitude.

I did hear though that the HSE were planning to target certain areas of admin for a round of redundancies....better late than never I suppose.

jon1981

ldw wrote: »

I did hear though that the HSE were planning to target certain areas of admin for a round of redundancies....better late than never I suppose.

that is certainly going to be an undeserved and humongous golden handshake.

SimpleSam06

jonny24ie wrote: »

This means you write your role down at the start of the year and set realistic targets for yourself to achieve within the year

So eh, you set your own goals? Heh. Any private sector company that tried to run itself like that would be ground into chowder within the quarter.

jon1981

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

So eh, you set your own goals? Heh. Any private sector company that tried to run itself like that would be ground into chowder within the quarter.

was just about to respond on that. my goals are derived from the company objectives. so by acheiving your goals you help the company. so i can't just go and set any old goals

lucylu

Also of course the public sector have the Trade unions shouting we want ,we want, we want and strike if their demands are not met.

If there is no money in the budget for Pay increases, company cars, phones, morale budgets in a private company you get on with it and Thank God ye still have a job otherwise you get up of your ass and get a new job somewhere else.

I know a Programmer who is on Sabbatical from a Government Office and who is on contract working in a Multinational earning more money there while their empty dusty desk sits idle for them to return... if that is not a perk I don't know what is...

jon1981

lucylu wrote: »

I know a Programmer who is on Sabbatical from a Government Office and who is on contract working in a Multinational earning more money there while their empty dusty desk sits idle for them to return... if that is not a perk I don't know what is...

ok now im sick!

K_P

There's nothing to stop you applying for a civil service position, OP, if you think they have it so great.

jon1981

K_P wrote: »

There's nothing to stop you applying for a civil service position, OP, if you think they have it so great.

I wouldn't want to as I have there are more oppurtunities for me in the private sector, what im annoyed it as how can you expect the public service ever to be more efficient and productive if the staff have it so handy and safe. The constant "we want more money" yet do fook all to deserve it. ok maybe im tarring the whole lot of them with the one brush, but based on who i know and what i have heard a vast majority of them deserve an eye opener

Tom Dunne

jon1981 wrote: »

now my point is, does the public sector employ any means to ensure staff are productive?
Do they get bonuses and pay rises just because they are due?
Are there really loads of middle managers managing nobody?... draining up funds that could be used elsewhere such as on health professionals or social workers.

Let me share my experiences working in the Public Sector.

In plain and simple terms, they work in a fantasy land where they can do as little as they like and still get yearly payrises, never get fired and call in the unions at the slightest mention of change.

I actually used to go into work each morning looking forward to what hilarities the day would bring me. From blatant incompetence, to sheer arrogance, with plenty of bullying and a smattering of rather odd personal issues, I don't think I have ever come across such a diverse and utterly unprofessional group of people in my life.

In my current job, I actually deal with the Public Sector a bit (different sections to what I used to work in) and as far as I can see, it appears the same.

So, if you want a job working with enthusiastic, professional, motivated, progrssive and customer-orientated people, then stay away from the Public Sector.

If, you want a handy number, where the only guarantees are pay rises and pensions, then maybe it is the job for you.

Now, where did I put that teflon suit?

run_Forrest_run

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Let me share my experiences working in the Public Sector.

In plain and simple terms, they work in a fantasy land where they can do as little as they like and still get yearly payrises, never get fired and call in the unions at the slightest mention of change.

I actually used to go into work each morning looking forward to what hilarities the day would bring me. From blatant incompetence, to sheer arrogance, with plenty of bullying and a smattering of rather odd personal issues, I don't think I have ever come across such a diverse and utterly unprofessional group of people in my life.

In my current job, I actually deal with the Public Sector a bit (different sections to what I used to work in) and as far as I can see, it appears the same.

So, if you want a job working with enthusiastic, professional, motivated, progrssive and customer-orientated people, then stay away from the Public Sector.

If, you want a handy number, where the only guarantees are pay rises and pensions, then maybe it is the job for you.

Now, where did I put that teflon suit?

Great post! Just as well you said you worked in the public sector or else the over-defensive public sector workers on board here would be down your throat:D

If I hear the usual "..there's nothing stopping you going for a job in the public sector.." drivel again I'll scream. That's not the point, the point is we are paying our taxes so these incompetent baboons can sit on their fat asses and count down their days until pension cash-in.

jon1981

classic quotes

the rot is at the top.

time for heads to roll-new begining and a new health service. harney and drumm must go! if it was any other croporation they would be gone by now for total incompetence-and for running a dysfunctional company with zero accountability!!

Supervisor: How was your sick day
Subordinate: Fine thanks, and yours
Supervisor: Tickety boo
Subordinate: Alrighty then... coffee?

re the useless middle managers managing nobody

continue to pay them but make them stay at home - the savings on lighting and heating would outweigh their work benefit.

Ireland has twice as many nurses as France and the UK per 1,000 population

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=34078&p=1127183

Tom Dunne

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

Great post! Just as well you said you worked in the public sector or else the over-defensive public sector workers on board here would be down your throat:D

I should point out worked. I could only stick it for a year and a half before I got out.

In fairness, there are some good people in the Public Sector, it isn't really right to tar them all with the same brush. But sadly, in my experience, they are few and far between, with the bad outnumbering the good.

The one thought I took away with me from the Public Sector was that not one of them would last two weeks in a "real" job, where they would have to make decisions, commit to deadlines, have somebody evaluate their work and actually take responsibility for something. Things all of us in the private sector take for granted.

BC

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

So eh, you set your own goals? Heh. Any private sector company that tried to run itself like that would be ground into chowder within the quarter.

No you don't set your own random goals under the PMDS public sector system. The organisation sets company targets. The management in the various departments within the organisation set their own targets which must be derived from the company targets it works its way down through the hierarchy until you personally agree goals with your manager which are personal to you but are ultimately derived from the company targets. You are allowed to add in other personal goals as well.

It is being implemented slightly differently accross the public sector depending on the organisation but in mine there is no monetary implications - either positive or negative. So you get nothing if you achieve the goals and you loose nothing if you don't.

In my place we get yearly incremements on the salary scale. The increment will depend on your salary scale but could be anything from 500 euro a year to about 3000 a year if you're on a very senior scale. I'm not aware of anyone not getting their annual increment but equally i'm not aware of anyone ever getting an increase in grade because they've been there a certain period of time. Anyone i know who has ever got a promotion has been interviewed for it and i have seen many cases where external people have got positions ahead of internal ones.

I do agree there there is a signicant amount of people in the public sector who don't pull their weight and there is no recourse for them. There is also an unbelievable amount of bureacracy and red tape which can be extremely frustrating.

Petrolium Hat

Tom Dunne wrote: »

The one thought I took away with me from the Public Sector was that not one of them would last two weeks in a "real" job, where they would have to make decisions, commit to deadlines, have somebody evaluate their work and actually take responsibility for something. Things all of us in the private sector take for granted.

Think you just a bad dept mate. It's such a weak generalisation it's unreal. I've worked in three large multinationals and the lip service that was paid to performance was worse than the civil service. I've worked in small businesses where my performance was monitored daily, that doesn't mean they are all one way or another, you're talking about 100,000s of workers. Generally since I've worked in the civil service (and this is at a middle management, lower senior management level), I've had at least 6 staff. I've got a degree, masters, and am certified as a project manager. The project board accountablity I've worked under since I've started has been stricter than anything I encountered in the private sector. Every decision at every meeting has to be accounted for and is FOI-able. Every week of work I do has to be accounted for and goes on perminent record. I've been promoted twice, both times with both an exam, an interview, and a presentation. Ok the public sector in general is poorly run, I'll except that yeah, but taring people with one brush is pure vague, lazyminded, ignornance. I've worked in a "real" job boss and I am in one now.

The question I always ask is,(and not necisarrily applying to yourself, considering you've already worked there) if it's soooo easy to work in the public service then why don't you just breeze past the other(apparentely lazy) potential public servants and get the handy, cushy job?

I dunno. Dam IBEC fascists *tongue in cheek*

Irony is I would have said the same as people were saying here until I actually became borg.

jon1981

BC wrote: »

So you get nothing if you achieve the goals and you loose nothing if you don't.

there it is!

Petrolium Hat

You lose nothing except the ability to tell the difference between the word "loose" and "lose".

(Sorry I had to, it is very common on boards though:- search for "loose", 99% of the time it's used people mean "lose)

nesf

Petrolium Hat wrote: »

You lose nothing except the ability to tell the difference between the word "loose" and "lose".

(Sorry I had to, it is very common on boards though:- search for "loose", 99% of the time it's used people mean "lose)

Don't correct people's grammar on this forum please, or at least if you do have the good grace to have an error in your own post so someone else can return the favour.

easyontheeye

nesf wrote: »

Don't correct people's grammar on this forum please, or at least if you do have the good grace to have an error in your own post so someone else can return the favour.

:eek: easy tiger!

SimpleSam06

BC wrote: »

So you get nothing if you achieve the goals and you loose nothing if you don't.

Oh yes, you're right, thats much better. :rolleyes:

Foj2007

Hands up who sick of these sweeping general statements about the civil service (most not true)!!! I've worked in both sectors, I decided to leave the private sector company i was in because I was of the inequality between employees. I am suppose you could fairly abmitious but i seen the same scenario over and over again- jobs for the boys! So i left, joined the CS, went back to college (in my own time) got a degree and i work in an extremely busy Office, where i have a clear career path, respect, responsibility and equal opportunities. I can at least admit that i'm sure other private companies would have afforded me the same opportunities, i was just stuck in a terrible job. So please just remember not all departments are the same. I am proud of where i work and the job i do. So please stop slagging my job off!!!!!

nesf

Foj2007 wrote: »

Hands up who sick of these sweeping general statements about the civil service (most not true)!!!

Anyone who is happy to call all civil servants slackers is either just having some fun or doesn't know much about the civil service. On the other hand anyone trying to claim that all civil servants are hard workers doesn't know a lot about the civil service either. Ignore them tbh.

Tails142

Civil service has its issues obviously, but there are plenty of people who work hard and plenty of people who don't. Most of the non-workers are really not to blame, it's the fault of their management who have been institutionalised into an 'if nobody else cares I wont care either' mindset, which they've got from banging theirs heads against bureaucratic walls set by their own 'institutionalised' bosses.

Its a cyclical process, eventually after a while, the 'go-getters' who come into the service fall into the trap and end up just like their bosses that they despise.

The solution is to obviously lose the dead wood, but the problem is that its the job of the very people that are the dead wood to do so nothing changes.

lucylu wrote: »

Also of course the public sector have the Trade unions shouting we want ,we want, we want and strike if their demands are not met.

If there is no money in the budget for Pay increases, company cars, phones, morale budgets in a private company you get on with it and Thank God ye still have a job otherwise you get up of your ass and get a new job somewhere else.

I know a Programmer who is on Sabbatical from a Government Office and who is on contract working in a Multinational earning more money there while their empty dusty desk sits idle for them to return... if that is not a perk I don't know what is...

If you're on a career break from the civil service you're not supposed to take other employment. It's meant for self-development or further college work.

indiewindy

On a career break you can work as self employed, that is how they get around the rule.

Foj2007

Well the Civil Service is going through a monderisation programme which will weed out the non hard workers. Remember the Civil Service has a huge workforce, so give it some time. It'll get there soon.

ixoy

From my own experiences, it varies like all places but there's far more room to be lax and get your pay increase and cruise by. It was in last week's Sunday Times I believe that about 99% of staff achieved a grade of being meeting with the expectations or above - a figure I find very hard to believe unless very weak standards are applied.

In my time, I've seen workers come in and put their feet on their desk and start reading magazines. They would be the same ones who spent 45 minutes on their break in the morning, for which they're getting paid - that's the sort of thing you'd never see in the private sector.

For what it's worth, there are some hard workers there and some very decent ones too who are excellent at their job. Many do seem to care about what they're doing and at least for the most part, I think that the APs and POs have been deserving of their positions from what I can determine - I don't really believe that promotion is automatic only that you can coast by, on annual increases, with fair ease and have a range of excellent benefits that many don't realise (e.g. flexi time).

cronos

ixoy wrote: »

From my own experiences, it varies like all places but there's far more room to be lax and get your pay increase and cruise by. It was in last week's Sunday Times I believe that about 99% of staff achieved a grade of being meeting with the expectations or above - a figure I find very hard to believe unless very weak standards are applied.

In my time, I've seen workers come in and put their feet on their desk and start reading magazines. They would be the same ones who spent 45 minutes on their break in the morning, for which they're getting paid - that's the sort of thing you'd never see in the private sector.

For what it's worth, there are some hard workers there and some very decent ones too who are excellent at their job. Many do seem to care about what they're doing and at least for the most part, I think that the APs and POs have been deserving of their positions from what I can determine - I don't really believe that promotion is automatic only that you can coast by, on annual increases, with fair ease and have a range of excellent benefits that many don't realise (e.g. flexi time).

Imagine how bad that 1% who didnt get the bonus must be. :P

Firetrap

Don't tar all public sector workers with the one brush. I work in a public sector job where they take PMDS very seriously and also keep a close eye on the work that people are doing. If myself or my workmates came into work and sat at our desks reading trashy novels all day, it wouldn't be long before it was noticed. And believe it or not, we do sometimes come under extreme pressure to get things done and to meet deadlines!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom Dunne

Firetrap wrote: »

Don't tar all public sector workers with the one brush. I work in a public sector job where they take PMDS very seriously and also keep a close eye on the work that people are doing. If myself or my workmates came into work and sat at our desks reading trashy novels all day, it wouldn't be long before it was noticed. And believe it or not, we do sometimes come under extreme pressure to get things done and to meet deadlines!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were going so good until you used the thousand exclamation marks.

I agree, it is unfair to tar them all with the same brush, but sadly, the perception is there. Truth or not, there is a large percentage who quite simply take the piss.

I have had many's a debate with a fellow Boards.ie person about the state of the Public Sector and she has convinced me that there is hope, not all of them are incompetent buffoons.

Foj2007

It might be the perception, but its not the truth at least not in my department. The department i work in is extremely busy and well respected. I have never seen anyone reading a mag or book at their desk and if you were to carry on like that you would be sure to get pulled up by management and believe it or not i have seen employees get the sack for under performance (not for reading books at their desks). The CS is a huge employer so of course i cant speak for all department. All grades now (bar SO) are advertised to the public so an equal percentage of senior management are recruited from the public sector, and its a little unrealistic to think that once you walk in the door you adopt the traits of all us slacking Civil Servants.

BostonB

Its a bit like saying all Irish workers are lazy and non nationals are much better workers.

BC

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Oh yes, you're right, thats much better. :rolleyes:

I never said it was better. I said thats the way it is where I work.
As it happens I think the whole PMDS thing is complete waste of time and taxpayers money.

BC

indiewindy wrote: »

On a career break you can work as self employed, that is how they get around the rule.

You don't even have to do this. The rule about not working for someone else is rarely enforced. Most people (that I have come accross) are using the career break as a fall back position in case they don't like their new job elsewhere. Unfortunately HR departments don't seem willing to enforce the career break rules.

BostonB

BC wrote: »

I...
As it happens I think the whole PMDS thing is complete waste of time and taxpayers money.

I agree with that. Though I would say it reminds you on a personal level of your own goals and your progrees on them. While its not directly linked to getting promotions. My experience has been self development, learning new skills & qualifications is one of the things that is looked for in any interview in the Public Sector. So theres pressure to constantly develop yourself. Even if thats outside the PMDS. I haven't seen too much (based on my limited experience) evidence of people just getting their promotions by just waiting for it. I have seen people bypassed by lower grades who performed better. So maybe things are changing.