Hitting the wall...or trying to prevent it!

belcarra

Hi folks,

I have now ran three marathons and numerous long runs in training but still have the problem of needing to walk parts of the last 5/6 odd miles.
Is this just a mental challenge that I'm not up to or (As I suspect/hope) is it a lack of correct training to get me in position to complete the marathon running the whole distance?

I did the Belfast Marathon at the weekend and ended up going about 20/30 secs per mile too fast in the first half but my second half was pretty much the same as the two previous marathons, so I don't neccesarily see myself running the whole race by slowing down the first half.

Any quick fix guarantees would be most welcome, but in the meantime anything that might take a couple of mins off my times would also be appreciated!

J.

Odysseus

Hitting the wall as you speak of it is a more physical as oppossed to a psychological thing in my understading. What I think your talking about is you body running out of its glycogen stores, which leaves you with that drained feeling, I can't go any further.

Your body adaptes to this as you train it to carry on, or your can take in some form of energy replacement. Personally I use a product called instant carbo every 20k works well for me with ultra running. Some people perfer the energy gels, easier to carry but they don't suit my stomach.

For a psychologically perspective that's where my motivation mantra's and performance cues which are certain songs on my MP3 come into play as well. Hope that helps, there is a vast amount of info out there on the subject, but the more you experience it the more you adapt to it.

Peckham

belcarra wrote: »

I have now ran three marathons and numerous long runs in training

How many long runs do you do, and how long are they? These are the key elements in preventing hitting the wall.

hunnymonster

+1 to what peckham says but also
proper fueling
proper pacing.

If your muscles are not fueled starting off you don't stand a chance


Pacing is a tricky one, a very simple version is that if you are hurting by 13 miles you started too fast, if you are not hurting by 20 miles, you didn't start fast enough!

belcarra

Thanks for the feedback.

As I think i mentioned I did Connemara on Apr 6th, then did 4 runs of approx 13 miles with a couple of 6 milers thrown in also. I then did Belfast on Monday.
I appreciate the long runs are the important ones and I did 3 x 18+ milers in preperation for Connemara. I tend to be ok as far as this distance (Approx 20miles) but then the rest becomes a real struggle. It's mainly physical but obviously it can be mentally difficult as well.

My next marathon is on May 27th in Newry so my plan would be to try 10-13 miles over the weekend and perhaps a 15-16miler the following weekend with approx 3or4 x 8milers thrown in on top. Will need to bear in mind that I'll be doing Cork the week afterwards so will have to conserve energy leading into Newry and the following week.

Perhaps I could improve on fuelling myself before the long distances but I thought I was ok on this. The usual pasta, rice, etc in the days leading upto a race and plenty of water. One thing I overlooked this time was to have some energy deink before the race and didn't have an opportunity until about 16miles into the race. Perhaps the damage was done by this stage??

Interms of pace, I generally do the long runs at about 9:10/mile to match to 4hr marathon pace (My goal). In Belfast I know I was probably about 30 s/m ahead of this until about mile 16 when I started to slow. In contrast, I did approx 9:40/mile in Connemara until about the same distance and I started to wane there also. Moral: Dropping the pace doesn't seem to allow me to go much further!! I know if I could complete a marathon without having to walk any parts I'd be very close to the 4hr mark and perhaps under it so I just wanna realise this ambition.

Any thoughts on areas I could improve from the ramblings above??

JC.

Peckham

belcarra wrote: »

As I think i mentioned I did Connemara on Apr 6th, then did 4 runs of approx 13 miles with a couple of 6 milers thrown in also. I then did Belfast on Monday.
I appreciate the long runs are the important ones and I did 3 x 18+ milers in preperation for Connemara. I tend to be ok as far as this distance (Approx 20miles) but then the rest becomes a real struggle. It's mainly physical but obviously it can be mentally difficult as well.

Did you also do plenty of runs around the 15-18 mile length. Ideally you should have minimum 5 runs over 15 mile plus in your training schedule. They really pay dividends on the day itself - without a doubt the single most important part of any programme.

belcarra wrote: »

My next marathon is on May 27th in Newry so my plan would be to try 10-13 miles over the weekend and perhaps a 15-16miler the following weekend with approx 3or4 x 8milers thrown in on top. Will need to bear in mind that I'll be doing Cork the week afterwards so will have to conserve energy leading into Newry and the following week......

....Interms of pace, I generally do the long runs at about 9:10/mile to match to 4hr marathon pace (My goal)....

Moral: Dropping the pace doesn't seem to allow me to go much further!!

This worries me a little, as effectively your marathons are long training runs. If you're struggling at the moment, you could be asking for trouble trying to do two in one week (and with a time goal to boot!). The key difficulty seems to be that your body can't handle running for 4 hours (no matter what the speed). Trying to force this in a race situation could lead to trouble, injury and all round disheartening experience.

If, as you say, your ambition is to realise a 4hr marathon, then I'd suggest not doing both Newry or Cork, if even either. Refocus, build up some long training runs and then target a later marathon for your time goal.

Sorry to sound negative about all this - but the problem seems to be in your training rather than any fuelling (which only supports training, not compensate for it). You need to address this, and Newry/Cork may not give you enough time to do this.

hunnymonster

belcarra wrote: »

...Interms of pace, I generally do the long runs at about 9:10/mile to match to 4hr marathon pace (My goal). In Belfast I know I was probably about 30 s/m ahead of this until about mile 16 when I started to slow. In contrast, I did approx 9:40/mile in Connemara until about the same distance and I started to wane there also. Moral: Dropping the pace doesn't seem to allow me to go much further!! I know if I could complete a marathon without having to walk any parts I'd be very close to the 4hr mark and perhaps under it so I just wanna realise this ambition.

Any thoughts on areas I could improve from the ramblings above??

JC.

Drop the pace of the long runs. You might not go further in training but to do the same distance you will have more time on you legs which will eventually pay off. Training at race pace is not a good idea.

--amadeus--

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying about pace. You mention that you were 20/30 secs per mile too fast in the first half but then that pacing isn't an issue?

Anyway, that aside I personally think that you are trying to hit to different and mutually exclusive targets and are ending up missing one due to teh type of training the other forces on you.

Usually athletes will focus on either running lots of marathons or running fast marathons. If you intend to run fast marathons (fast being a different speed for everyone, obviously) then you need to work really hard in training. I agree with everything Peckham said, lots of 13 - 16 mile runs in training and your 5 longest runs should total 100 miles (typically 18, 3*20 and 22). As HM said these long runs should be 30 - 90 secs per mile slower than race pace and so your 22 mile run should be roughly the same duration as your target marathon. Doing this builds distance stamina, which seems to be your problem, rather than fuel.

Running multiple marathons is a different ball game altogether, there the focus is just on finishing, ticking the numbers off. Races are run at LSR pace and time targets are irrelevant. The training you are doing now seems better geared to this type of event, and rightly so, looking at your planend schedule.

The reason teh two targets are exclusive is that a raced marathon takes a long time to recover from - anything up to a month - during which you should do little to no running. Attempting to combine a punishing fast marathon training plan with racing multiple marathons is virtually guaranteed to wreck your body.

So I think you need to pick one or other target - running all teh races you have planned or running one fast.

belcarra

Thanks again for the further feedback. Some good advice.

I'm covering 6 Irish Marathons this year for charity. So, really this schedule is set and is unavoidable. However, I would like to get one marathon under 4hrs. This will probably be either Longford or Dublin. The upcoming Newry & Cork marathons will most likely just get 'ticked-off' the list as they are so close together...in fact I'd probably be happy getting sub 5hrs for Cork!

So, it'll be slow for those two marathons but then will want to hit the target for Longford and Dublin. Wrt the question about pace, what I meant was that Belfast was alot quicker for the first 16-odd miles than Connemara and the struggle hom over the final 10 miles seemed to be the same. I would have expected that seeing as I was much slower in connemara I'd be able to stick it all the way to the end without walking (Much)?

For my preperation for Connemara I followed standard rules of long runs, ie Building up through 12, 14, 15, 18.5, 14, 19, 19.5 until tapering-off. OK, so maybe I could've had a couple more long runs in there but I had a good solid base starting off so I'm not sure if another couple of LSRs would have made a big difference.

Maybe I simply just need to keep the head down and keep the LSR regular up until Longford? In the meantime, from comments above, the plan would seem to be to slow down to approx 10/10.5 mins/m or so and this might allow me to complete the next two marathons without walking parts at the end??

JC.

Peckham

I think it's sensible to wait until the Longford or Dublin marathons before attempting to "race". For Newry and Cork your objective should merely be to get around in one piece - even if that involves walking part of it. Wouldn't worry about Longford or Dublin for the moment - you have a lot of time to improve the situation before then.

Your training plan shows that (apart from the two marathons), you've only done three runs over 15 miles. This is where all the problems stem from as your body is simply not used to pounding the streets for over two and a half hours, hence why you're hitting problems at around the three hour point (20 miles).

Would you consider taking a run/walk approach to the next two marathons, i.e. run two miles, walk two miles (or even run four, walk two) - thus conserving energy until the crucial last 10k? It could be a major effort to run Newry, thus putting Cork in jeopardy. Maybe even take this approach for Newry and then see how you feel for Cork.

After Cork, you should take a small bit of a break with no running (maybe 2 weeks). Then I think you should look at some marathon training plans and then slot into whatever week you need to in order to complete the plan in time for Longford, and then pick up again after Longford in order to be ready for Dublin and your sub-4 push.

Keep us informed!

hunnymonster

belcarra wrote: »

what I meant was that Belfast was alot quicker for the first 16-odd miles than Connemara and the struggle hom over the final 10 miles seemed to be the same. I would have expected that seeing as I was much slower in connemara I'd be able to stick it all the way to the end without walking (Much)?

eh? the courses are very different.