What make a good swimmer?

Phil01

I have to ask, because sometimes no matter how much i think i've improved in swimming my times don't change much. Swimming in my last triathlon i had a 7 minute improvement over my last time for 1.9km distance. I'm not sure if this is a big improvement with about 6 months of training in between, im happy, but i think i could do better, alot better.
So im wondering where im going wrong in my training. What makes a good swimmer? Is it big arm muscles, i always thought technique was the answer to speed and quickness, but sometimes i doubt that. Look at Olympic swimmers they have huge arms and lats, so would doing weights help me improve my swimming? I'm thinking its a mixture of both good technique and strong upper body? is that right? or is it just all technique and thats what i should focus on?

Thanks.

tunney

What time did you do Phil?
Did you enjoy lisbon?

Loved it myself bar the drafting on the bike, cost me about 15 places.

What makes a good swimmer? Thousands of kilometers. if you did swim competitively as a child you can pretty much forget about mixing it with the top swimmers later in life.

That being said you can become a top biker and runner and still place well (look at Liam dolan in lisbon)

That being said its mainly technique and some upper body strength. (I'm told, i'm not the best swimmer)

hunnymonster

It depends on your weakpoints.
A couple of questions to ask yourself
Is there a big difference in your pool times compared to OW?
How is your HR when swimming?
Have you had someone look at your technique?

7 minutes is actually a big chunk to take off your time.

It's a big mistake to compare pool Olympians (who essentially specialise in sprinting and thus need big power muscles) with triathletes. I'm actually looking forward to the marathon (10km) swimming in the olympics this year.

Weights are very useful for swimming assuming power is one of your limiting factors. It certainly was for me when I started. That said it will be a disaster if you replace swim training in the pool with dry land training if what you really need is pool time.

Sorry this is a bit rambling, the key point is you need to figure out what "you" need as the training will differ for different people.

paulksnn

I've just completed my first tri so others may have better advice.
I was actually a good swimmer to begin with but sprint training for the last 4 months has vastly improved my performance.
In the space of 4 months I got to the stage where I was able to sprint the same distance as I did in January (albeit slightly slower with the breaks).
But my cruising speed really did improve dramatically, as did my stamina.

As Hunny said though, technique is crucial as well.

tunney

I think we're talking more how to get from 23-24 minutes to 18-19 minutes for 1500m.

Poncherello

if you did swim competitively as a child you can pretty much forget about mixing it with the top swimmers later in life.

why is this ...

hunnymonster

old dogs, new tricks.

unlike cycling and running where pure muscle plays a part, swimming is very much technique based. If you haven;t learned that when you are young, you probably won't. That's not to say all is lost, you can still be a good swimmer if you start late but you will never be a great swimmer.

tunney

Poncherello wrote: »

if you did swim competitively as a child you can pretty much forget about mixing it with the top swimmers later in life.

why is this ...

Sorry meant to say "didn't"

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

old dogs, new tricks.

unlike cycling and running where pure muscle plays a part, swimming is very much technique based. If you haven;t learned that when you are young, you probably won't. That's not to say all is lost, you can still be a good swimmer if you start late but you will never be a great swimmer.

technique and shoulder flexibilty

Phil01

hunnymonster wrote: »

old dogs, new tricks.

unlike cycling and running where pure muscle plays a part, swimming is very much technique based. If you haven;t learned that when you are young, you probably won't. That's not to say all is lost, you can still be a good swimmer if you start late but you will never be a great swimmer.

I've just started swimming competitively last year, is this to say that i will never get down to 20-24 min for 1.9km swim, no matter how hard i train, im 22 now.
Are you saying reaching that level will be impossible?

hunnymonster

sub 24 minutes are the kinds of times pro men are doing so it's a big ask. Then again, I've never seen you swim, I don't know anything about your background etc.

Phil01

hunnymonster wrote: »

sub 24 minutes are the kinds of times pro men are doing so it's a big ask. Then again, I've never seen you swim, I don't know anything about your background etc.

i dont have a swimming background at all, but i want to achieve this level or at least as near to it as possible. So i want to know is this possible? Can i achieve this level even though i just started swimming competitively last year? so far my best is 40min for 1.9km

Bambaata

Like you my swimmign if not so good. In my first sprint Tri it took 22 mins and my second i did the 750m in 16 mins but i really struggled in those swims. From what i've heard lessons are a good idea btu can be expensive. One way aroudn this is to join a Tri club which includes coaching as part of the membership or for only a small bit more. I dont know what Tri clubs would be good for beginners though but i'm sure most would accomodate. I'll probably join one myself next year for that reason but am yet to decide on who i'll go with.

tunney

Bambaata wrote: »

Like you my swimmign if not so good. In my first sprint Tri it took 22 mins and my second i did the 750m in 16 mins but i really struggled in those swims. From what i've heard lessons are a good idea btu can be expensive. One way aroudn this is to join a Tri club which includes coaching as part of the membership or for only a small bit more. I dont know what Tri clubs would be good for beginners though but i'm sure most would accomodate. I'll probably join one myself next year for that reason but am yet to decide on who i'll go with.

Alot of the tri swim coaching isn't the best, not a reflection on the coaches but the number of people that they have to coach in one session.

tunney

Phil01 wrote: »

i dont have a swimming background at all, but i want to achieve this level or at least as near to it as possible. So i want to know is this possible? Can i achieve this level even though i just started swimming competitively last year? so far my best is 40min for 1.9km

I'm going to say no. To get to 24min for a 1.9km swim thats 1:15.7 per 100m for 19 contiguous 100s. So far your pb works out a 2:06 per 100m

To do a 24min 1900m you'd have to be going through the 1500m point in under 19 minutes. If you can do that let Triathlon Ireland know so they can sign you up for their High Performance squad.

Phil01

tunney wrote: »

What time did you do Phil?
Did you enjoy lisbon?

Loved it myself bar the drafting on the bike, cost me about 15 places.

Yeah, Lisbon was great, drafting on the bike was crazy, you could see a clear peleton on the otherside of the motorway as they passed!!

Run was hard too, due to the heat.
I got athy next on the list, then its the big one, IM France.

tunney wrote: »

I'm going to say no. To get to 24min for a 1.9km swim thats 1:15.7 per 100m for 19 contiguous 100s. So far your pb works out a 2:06 per 100m

To do a 24min 1900m you'd have to be going through the 1500m point in under 19 minutes. If you can do that let Triathlon Ireland know so they can sign you up for their High Performance squad.

You know, now im going to aim for these times to prove everyone wrong!!!

hunnymonster

tunney wrote: »

Alot of the tri swim coaching isn't the best, not a reflection on the coaches but the number of people that they have to coach in one session.

no offence taken :-) Seriously though, most of the people coaching in Ireland shouldn't be (myself included which is why I try to help people when I can but I don't "coach" despite having the qualifications). In coaching training there is far too much emphasis on political correctness (e.g. we're not allowed to crouch down at the side of the pool) and not enough time on actual content!

The two coaches I would rate very highly for swimming are
Seb Locteau in Galway and
Eilis Burns in Cork.


There may be others I don't know of. I know Mark Dempsey is getting into it and he certainly has the right background and will make his charges work hard.

tunney

My coach is based in the UK, I see him quite alot, excellent coach.

TI are working on increasing the quality and quantity of coaches in ireland but its a difficult one.

tunney

Phil01 wrote: »

Yeah, Lisbon was great, drafting on the bike was crazy, you could see a clear peleton on the otherside of the motorway as they passed!!

Run was hard too, due to the heat.
I got athy next on the list, then its the big one, IM France.


You know, now im going to aim for these times to prove everyone wrong!!!

What time did you do in Lisbon?

tunney

Phil01 Swim 0:40:32 Bike 02:41:22 Run 02:08:18 Total 5:32:43.85

Dunno why I asked when I had the results on my desktop. Happy? What you expected to do?

Phil01

lol, i dunno, i thought my swim was bad, i wasn't happy with a 7 minute improvement with 7 months since last 1.9km swim. Only 1 minute improvement per month. Cycle was ok could of been better. Run was terrible, heat hit me bad and i was hurting a small bit from the bike.
My biggest disappointment was the swimming, if i can improve on that i could have a better race.
When i see the winner coming in at 20min for the swim, it makes me think i got a whole lot of improvement to do on the swim.

tunney

winner also ran a 1:10 half marathon off the bike.
I'd have said that there was huge room for improvement in the run, take at least 30 minutes off that 2:10 run. Heat wasn't that bad to be fair.

hunnymonster

let's make a comparison, Irelands first man, Tunney and Phil


Liam 30:06 1:40 2:08:00 1:06 1:16:33 = 3:57:25
Dave 31:17 1:54 2:16:58 1:14 1:20:15 = 4:11:57
Phil 40:32 1:16 2:41:22 1:16 2:08:18 = 5:32:43

in some ways the comparison is not valid, Phil is new to the sport, Tunney is an old pro but it does give some food for thought.

you're approx 1/3 off the pace in the swim but significantly more than that in the run. This could mean that the Lisbon heat doesn't agree with you but more likely means you put too much into the bike or can't run off the bike. If I were you, This is where I would concentrate my efforts and without knowing you this is where I would guess the biggest gains are to be made. Normally I'm not as cautious as Tunney (except going down the Healy pass!) but I have to agree that 40 -> 24 is a huge ask off any swimmer.

Tunney, Are you happy with your race? What on earth were you doing in T1 - having an ice cream? Only teasing. I don't know your racing that well but it certainly looks like a result to be happy with. I would be happy with a 1:20 flat half!

Phil01

tunney wrote: »

winner also ran a 1:10 half marathon off the bike.
I'd have said that there was huge room for improvement in the run, take at least 30 minutes off that 2:10 run. Heat wasn't that bad to be fair.

lol, i agree, i do have to improve my run just as much, but the heat was bad!!! Well i felt it badly. it was 35c wasn't it.
I'm beginning to see the light, i.e work more on my bike and run.

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

Tunney, Are you happy with your race? What on earth were you doing in T1 - having an ice cream? Only teasing. I don't know your racing that well but it certainly looks like a result to be happy with. I would be happy with a 1:20 flat half!

Yeah happy. Swim was only okay as I didn't get any feet and swam a little off course. Bike was excellent, really got motoring, obviously the packs ahead of me pissed me off as I knew that they'd be fresh for the run and end up beating me overall. Run was good fun. Knew I was running well off the bike but didn't think 1:20 well. Was surprised at the amount of people I ran down and passed. Bodes well for my 'A' races this year that are more suited to me (i.e. hilly were power to weight is more important). Transitions are always my weak point, although I normally cramp up in them so I take it a little slower and more careful to avoid this. Happy too as normally Dolan beats me by 35-40 minutes, only 14 this time.

Phil01

Ok, so to answer my orginal question, it's basically to improve in swimming i need good upper body strength, good technique and plenty of pool swimming.

tunney

Not in that order, technique first, then pool time, then upper body strength.

one on one coaching with a swim coach or join a good masters club.

Phil01

Ok thanks for the help guys. Now to knock 20 minutes off my swim!!!!!