Prayer Skeptic

Black Swan

Although raised a Catholic, I don't attend, and it's rare that you would ever catch me praying. I try to be self-sufficient, independent, and a free-thinker, most often believing that prayer is a cop-out wish cast into the sky during a weak moment when I've lost faith in myself.

I always took pride in being physically fit, with strenuous workouts daily, often as a student or instructor of taekwondo. I eat a healthy diet, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and rarely drink. Then last November-December I got seriously ill. I was written off, including the second medical opinion. Things were hopeless.

Even then I did not pray to God (or Whomever), but I did breakdown one day and "talk" (maybe some would call it prayer) to my Mum, who died when I was born. I asked her for help (or to intercede, or whatever, on my behalf). Shortly after I was rushed to hospital, but this I do not remember, because I was unconscious. Later I was told that I had become a candidate for a high-tech experimental procedure which kept me alive to this day.

I now have a dilemma that I struggle with... My rational mind tells me that I was lucky, and that a chance set of medical events came together for me at the right time and place to keep me alive. Yet my emotional self (or what some may call spiritual) wonders if there was something more to it?

PDN

I doubt very much if your mother would be in a position to do anything to help you. Therefore I think that your rational mind is correct and that you were very lucky.

Glad that things worked out well for you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Perhaps the was more to it, but not nessecarily prayer.

I'm probably in the wrong forum for saying this, but sod it: I believe in God as a consciousness rather than a being as such and prayer as a form of energy which can be directed or used by anyone with thew know how. Is it possible you latched on to some sort of energy and subconsciously controlled it, directing you towards the experiments that ultimately saved you...? Long shot, I know, just a theory.

The alternative, of course, is just to say Thank You to whomever/whatever saved your life and make the most out of what you have now. Enjoy it, don't question it.

Fanny Cradock

I'd have to agree with PDN when he says that this was down to chance. I don't believe there is any Biblical support for the notion that those who have passed away can intercede.

Galvasean

I'll echo the sentiment in thinking that it was probably chance. Either way its good that you pulled through.

Akrasia

Your gratitude should lie with the scientists and the doctors and the academics and the funders of medical research rather than to god or to your late mother.

Every time there is a new experimental medical procedure that turns out to be successful, there are also individual patients who had been told they were beyond treatment but were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to avail of the groundbreaking procedure.

One thing I find particularly irritating about religion is that proponents tend to give God all the credit for 'good' things that happen, and absolve god of all the responsibility for the 'bad' things that happen.

You have demonstrated that here. You are considering attributing your mother's (or god's) intervention as the cause of your cure, but why didn't she intervene earlier to prevent you getting sick in the first place? Why would she wait until you pray to her before she intervened (If i see my girlfriend in a burning building, I don't wait for her to call for help before I try to help her escape)

Black Swan

I'm still in recovery, in more ways than one, prompting me to pause and consider these questions at this stage in my life. My sincere thanks to PDN, Ikky Poo2, Fanny Cradock, and Galvasean for their observations and empathy.

I did find Akrasia's post rather curious, indeed...

Akrasia wrote: »

Every time there is a new experimental medical procedure that turns out to be successful, there are also individual patients who had been told they were beyond treatment but were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to avail of the groundbreaking procedure.

Fair enough, this may be the case. All but Ikky Poo2's post to this thread tended to agree with this observation. Furthermore, it would also appear that this comment was consistent with "my rational mind" statement above?

Akrasia wrote:

One thing I find particularly irritating about religion is that proponents tend to give God all the credit for 'good' things that happen, and absolve god of all the responsibility for the 'bad' things that happen.

You have demonstrated that here.

What do I find curious?

• It's implied that I have "demonstrated" myself to be a "proponent" of "religion," in spite of a "Prayer Skeptic" thread title, along with several comments that were in agreement with this title?
• A "proponent (is) one who argues in support of something -- an advocate," which is inconsistent with my expressed confusion in noting a "dilemma?"
• It's implied that I "credit" and "absolve" God, which I find presumptuous and problematic indeed!
• For some unexplained reason "my rational mind" alternative has been completely ignored when making a one-sided argument?
• The above statement makes a simplistic, broad sweeping generalisation about what "proponents" believe, as if there was no diversity of thought within or between "religion(s)," or between those who believe in one particular faith as opposed to another?

kelly1

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Although raised a Catholic, I don't attend, and it's rare that you would ever catch me praying. I try to be self-sufficient, independent, and a free-thinker, most often believing that prayer is a cop-out wish cast into the sky during a weak moment when I've lost faith in myself.

I always took pride in being physically fit, with strenuous workouts daily, often as a student or instructor of taekwondo. I eat a healthy diet, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and rarely drink. Then last November-December I got seriously ill. I was written off, including the second medical opinion. Things were hopeless.

Even then I did not pray to God (or Whomever), but I did breakdown one day and "talk" (maybe some would call it prayer) to my Mum, who died when I was born. I asked her for help (or to intercede, or whatever, on my behalf). Shortly after I was rushed to hospital, but this I do not remember, because I was unconscious. Later I was told that I had become a candidate for a high-tech experimental procedure which kept me alive to this day.

I now have a dilemma that I struggle with... My rational mind tells me that I was lucky, and that a chance set of medical events came together for me at the right time and place to keep me alive. Yet my emotional self (or what some may call spiritual) wonders if there was something more to it?

Hello BL, thanks for sharing your story with us.

First I would say, as a Catholic, that I believe that everyone in Heaven has the ability to intercede on our behalf. These people are anything but dead! So I think it's entirely possible that your mother interceded before God on your behalf.

About the health scare, I'm glad you recovered! I think this may have been hint from God that your spiritual health is more important that your phyiscal health/fitness.

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

I now have a dilemma that I struggle with... My rational mind tells me that I was lucky, and that a chance set of medical events came together for me at the right time and place to keep me alive. Yet my emotional self (or what some may call spiritual) wonders if there was something more to it?

First let me say I'm very happy that you are doing well.

Secondly I would echo Akrasia comments that every new medical technology is going to end up saving someone who otherwise may have died.

It is a natural tendency for humans to try and regain a sense of control over their lives, particularly when dealing with hardship far beyond their control such as serious illness. We have a primal need to associate good things or the desire for good things with some agent, often supernatural, that has the power to help us. Through this process we receive a kind of peace of mind that things will work out.

Some people turn to "God" for this, others believe in personal guardians or "angels", you turned to the spirit of a dead relative.

It is a common concept in a lot of human cultures that dead people, existing as spirits, have abilities and powers that living humans lack. Which is why you didn't turn to a living relative and ask them to help you, they wouldn't have had the power to do so.

By imagining dead people with supernatural powers this concept serves two purposes. It gives dead people who we may miss, a means and reason to still be associating with us left alive on Earth. It also fills the need we have for an agent who will act for us in a way that we, or other living humans, cannot act.

So while the idea that your mother is still active and helping you is a wonderful idea, the fact that these events happened in the order you describe is not really a reason to think that this is actually the case.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

First let me say I'm very happy that you are doing well.

Secondly I would echo Akrasia comments that every new medical technology is going to end up saving someone who otherwise may have died.

It is a natural tendency for humans to try and regain a sense of control over their lives, particularly when dealing with hardship far beyond their control such as serious illness. We have a primal need to associate good things or the desire for good things with some agent, often supernatural, that has the power to help us. Through this process we receive a kind of peace of mind that things will work out.

Some people turn to "God" for this, others believe in personal guardians or "angels", you turned to the spirit of a dead relative.

It is a common concept in a lot of human cultures that dead people, existing as spirits, have abilities and powers that living humans lack. Which is why you didn't turn to a living relative and ask them to help you, they wouldn't have had the power to do so.

By imagining dead people with supernatural powers this concept serves two purposes. It gives dead people who we may miss, a means and reason to still be associating with us left alive on Earth. It also fills the need we have for an agent who will act for us in a way that we, or other living humans, cannot act.

So while the idea that your mother is still active and helping you is a wonderful idea, the fact that these events happened in the order you describe is not really a reason to think that this is actually the case.

You certainly know how to pour cold water on peoples attempts to find God!
Don't be such a killjoy!

wolfsbane

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'd have to agree with PDN when he says that this was down to chance. I don't believe there is any Biblical support for the notion that those who have passed away can intercede.

I agree that there is no place for individuals in heaven interceding for those on earth - they are not omnisient for a start.

But to Blue_Lagoon's query, let me suggest that your prayer was not unheard. God hears all, and knows the sincerity and searching of each one's heart. It may well have been His gracious hand that spared you, that you might seek for Him. Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

BrianCalgary

Great that you pulled through.

I have been pondering this question and dont have an answer as there isnt a Biblical passage that addresses it.

When I'm in Heaven I hope that I will chat to God and ask Him to intervene in a loved ones life. Now how will I know what is happening, I trust that God will let me know what my kids and grandkids are up to.

Theologically and Biblically there is nothing to support your ability to chat with your dead Mum, but I wonder if your mother even not being able to hear you continues to caht to God about you and therefore God was present in your crisis and gave the doctors the wisdom in pulling you out.

When my daughter had her serious accident a couple of years a ago the MRI crashed a few times before the second test could be done. In that time the prayer chain went up and healing happened.

Soul Winner

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Although raised a Catholic, I don't attend, and it's rare that you would ever catch me praying. I try to be self-sufficient, independent, and a free-thinker, most often believing that prayer is a cop-out wish cast into the sky during a weak moment when I've lost faith in myself.

I always took pride in being physically fit, with strenuous workouts daily, often as a student or instructor of taekwondo. I eat a healthy diet, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and rarely drink. Then last November-December I got seriously ill. I was written off, including the second medical opinion. Things were hopeless.

Even then I did not pray to God (or Whomever), but I did breakdown one day and "talk" (maybe some would call it prayer) to my Mum, who died when I was born. I asked her for help (or to intercede, or whatever, on my behalf). Shortly after I was rushed to hospital, but this I do not remember, because I was unconscious. Later I was told that I had become a candidate for a high-tech experimental procedure which kept me alive to this day.

I now have a dilemma that I struggle with... My rational mind tells me that I was lucky, and that a chance set of medical events came together for me at the right time and place to keep me alive. Yet my emotional self (or what some may call spiritual) wonders if there was something more to it?

Glad to hear that you are pulling through. And that you didn't automatically write off your recovery to Science alone. If the God that is revealed in the Bible really does exist and has all the traits that are attributed to Him including "Thou understandest my thoughts afar off" then it is ok to thank Him for your recovery and for guiding you to the treatment you have received.

" There are only two ways to live your life-
One is... as though nothing is a miracle.
The other is... as though everything is! "
- Albert Einstein

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

You certainly know how to pour cold water on peoples attempts to find God!
Don't be such a killjoy!

He doesn't appear to be trying to find God, and it appears that most of the Christian posters think this was nothing to do with God.

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

He doesn't appear to be trying to find God, and it appears that most of the Christian posters think this was nothing to do with God.

Actually, a quick correction: it would seem that most of the Christian posters, myself included, believe that the spirit of BL's mother wasn't involved. As we have no idea what God gets up to, we couldn't possibly say that he definitely had or hadn't a part to play in BL's welcome recovery. It looks like you haven't cornered the market on fastidiousness just yet, Wicknight :pac:

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

As we have no idea what God gets up to, we couldn't possibly say that he definitely had or hadn't a part to play in BL's welcome recovery. It looks like you haven't cornered the market on fastidiousness just yet, Wicknight :pac:

I didn't claim that you said he definitely didn't have a part to play. Both yourself and PDN thougt did say that you thought what happened was down to chance or luck. You didn't say it was down to God rather than his mother, as wolfsbane and BC suggested after my original post.

"Therefore I think that your rational mind is correct and that you were very lucky."
PDN

"I'd have to agree with PDN when he says that this was down to chance. I don't believe there is any Biblical support for the notion that those who have passed away can intercede."
Fanny

But for some reason why I suggest this was most likely down to chance I'm stopping this guy from finding God and ever lasting salvation ... go figure! :pac:

Red Hand

Wicknight wrote: »

But for some reason why I suggest this was most likely down to chance I'm stopping this guy from finding God and ever lasting salvation ... go figure! :pac:

Well, "this guy" isn't going to find God, for sure. Why is that? Because Blue Lagoon is a "she"!:p

Black Swan

I could be on my deathbed and Jeremiah would show up and say something to make me laugh. "Take a hike Jeremiah!" (Oh, if you're hiking on the trails of Kerry or Cork down south, you just might run into him)

To the other posters, please know that I appreciate your comments during this time when I'm trying to sort myself out. Ta' a'thas orm faoi seo. Go raibh maith agat.

Red Hand

You should know that I am very close to The Man Upstairs. Just watch out what prophet you are telling to take a hike, lady!:p

gordon_gekko

Akrasia wrote: »

Your gratitude should lie with the scientists and the doctors and the academics and the funders of medical research rather than to god or to your late mother.

Every time there is a new experimental medical procedure that turns out to be successful, there are also individual patients who had been told they were beyond treatment but were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to avail of the groundbreaking procedure.

One thing I find particularly irritating about religion is that proponents tend to give God all the credit for 'good' things that happen, and absolve god of all the responsibility for the 'bad' things that happen.


yeah , its like when the religous praise the lord because they found there keys , movie stars thank god if they win an oscar yet on the other hand , when we see a disaster like in burma , god has nothing to do with it

i would perfer to think that god has nothing to do with either event , that way i dont have to conclude that they guy has a serious problem with regard where his prioritys lie

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

You certainly know how to pour cold water on peoples attempts to find God!
Don't be such a killjoy!

In fairness, the OP came in here asking for peoples opinons, and some of them happen to disagree with yours, get over it! To the OP, believe whatever you want to believe mate, the only way you will find answers to such deep questions are within yourself, not on a christian message board. Best of luck, and well done for pulling through all this.

JCB

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Although raised a Catholic, I don't attend, and it's rare that you would ever catch me praying. I try to be self-sufficient, independent, and a free-thinker, most often believing that prayer is a cop-out wish cast into the sky during a weak moment when I've lost faith in myself.

Congratulations Blue on your recovery!!!

I echo what one of the other posters said about being grateful - to doctors, to your mother, to Jesus whatever your choice!

In fact, perhaps a post in the Praise the Lord thread would not go astray if you felt so inclined.

I am just particularly interested in the way your post links prayer to self-weakness, which I think is a terrible pity.
Prayer is all about relationship.

If our relationship with our parents and friends was all about helping ourselves (some cynically would say this that this is all what relationships are all about) then true, relying on parents/friends would indicate weakness, why would we need them otherwise?

Speaking from my experience anyway, relationships are more than this, with love, thoughtfulness and caring. The idea being that weakness doesn't come into the equation but a want to help and care.

A possible way forward for you (especially if you are uncertain about God) would be a build a closer relationship with your deceased mother. To visit her resting place, to stop and think and appreciate her, look at photos to remind you of her, i.e. to build the relationship.

Since, as Christians we believe that our relations are not dead it is important that we remain in contact with them. While I wouldn't say the your mother had the ability to cure you from the afterlife, I certainly wouldn't rule out her interceding to God on your behalf.

Prayer doesn't have to be about need and want - it's about communication. This experience may enable you to see prayer in a different way.

robindch

gordon_gekko wrote: »

One thing I find particularly irritating about religion is that proponents tend to give God all the credit for 'good' things that happen, and absolve god of all the responsibility for the 'bad' things that happen.

Two words -- Stockholm Syndrome.

There was a good doc shown on National Geographic a couple of weeks back about a Nepali eye surgeon who travelled to North Korea to deal with malnutrition-induced cataracts. The doc-maker takes up the story:

Lisa Ling wrote:

Here, children and old people alike had lived in the dark for years. All were hoping for a miracle. We witnessed Dr. Ruit and his team operate on more than one thousand people in only six days. It was an act of unbelievable stamina, and proved Dr. Ruit’s deep-rooted humanity.

Then the crucial day arrived. A thousand fearful and expectant patients with their eyes bandaged were gathered in one room. What would happen when the bandages come off? Nobody knew and everybody, including us, held their breaths. Dr. Ruit went up to every single person, talked to each one soothingly – and slowly took off the bandage. One by one, we witnessed the miracle happening. Old women saw their grandchildren and children their parents for the first time after years in the dark.

But what was so remarkable was that immediately after regaining their sight, rather than thanking the doctor, people started crying and bowing and giving thanks in front of pictures of the Dear Leader Kim Jong Il and his father, Kim Il Sung as hundreds clapped and cheered in unison. I never saw such an extreme personality cult before.

The furniture changes, but people don't

gordon_gekko

robindch wrote: »

Two words -- Stockholm Syndrome.

There was a good doc shown on National Geographic a couple of weeks back about a Nepali eye surgeon who travelled to North Korea to deal with malnutrition-induced cataracts. The doc-maker takes up the story:The furniture changes, but people don't

interesting story but i dont see how my point about the religous crediting god with everything that is good while giving him a pass on everything or anything that goes bad is equal to stockholm syndrome

i always understood the term stockholm syndrome as a way of describing how prisoners or hostages come to relate with there captives

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Two words -- Stockholm Syndrome.

Typing 2 words and linking to Wiki to make a point is just being lazy. Your posts are usually much more insightful, Robin. Now, that said, I would have paid more attention to your post if you had of ended it with the word 'FACT' (in capitals, of course).

robindch

gordon_gekko wrote: »

i dont see how my point about the religous crediting god with everything that is good while giving him a pass on everything or anything that goes bad is equal to stockholm syndrome

It's fairly straightforward. Within SS, people who believe themselves to be under the total control of an agent who has life-or-death power over them, tend, where they can, to support the agent or go along passively, presumably in the hope that the agent won't be irritated to the point of killing them.

In this case, the praise lavished upon the capricious and violent deity of the OT who created the threatening political world in which true believers think they exist, can be seen as structurally quite similar to the praise lavished by the citizens of the DPRK upon the creator of their system. From the outside, it's easier to see that the creator (virtual or otherwise) of each system is engaging in moral blackmail of its inhabitants.

Clearer?

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Typing 2 words and linking to Wiki to make a point is just being lazy.

Well, it was quite late last night and I had to be up, bags packed, at the airport early this morning. Anyhow, the topic of stockholm syndrome has come up here often enough that I didn't think it needs to be gone into in much depth. But perhaps it does?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Your posts are usually much more insightful, Robin.

More insightful than the above? Why, thanks!

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Now, that said, I would have paid more attention to your post if you had of ended it with the word 'FACT' (in capitals, of course).

If you reckon it'll make what I write more convincing to religious believers, then it's certainly worth considering.

Amen to that!

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Well, it was quite late last night and I had to be up, bags packed, at the airport early this morning. Anyhow, the topic of stockholm syndrome has come up here often enough that I didn't think it needs to be gone into in much depth.

I must have missed those posts. Still, it is an extraordinary claim, and one I feel that has no truth. Whatever your view on God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, Christians, as a whole, don't subscribe to the notion that they are malevolent entities bent on total control. Again, it all goes back to the integral role that free occupies in Christianity. No guns are being held to anyone's head. Of course, at this point you will state that Hell is just such a tool of terror and control. However, I personally have never met a Christian living under a fear of Hell, though that is not to say that there are still some 'hell and brimstone' preachers out there. Indeed, I've only heard the matter discussed on a handful of occasions, even then it was never in a threatening manner.

robindch wrote: »

Why, thanks!If you reckon it'll make what I write more convincing to religious believers, then it's certainly worth considering.

Amen to that!

Sure give it a blast!

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I must have missed those posts. Still, it is an extraordinary claim, and one I feel that has no truth. Whatever your view on God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, Christians, as a whole, don't subscribe to the notion that they are malevolent entities bent on total control.

I think that that is exactly the point.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Of course, at this point you will state that Hell is just such a tool of terror and control. However, I personally have never met a Christian living under a fear of Hell

That would probably because so few Christians believe they are actually going to hell.

You think if you do right by God he will not send you to hell, so why worry about hell? You aren't going there

This is where the SS comes into play. What you aren't doing questioning this set up in the first place, in the same way that hostages are focused simply on pleasing the hostage takers to get out of the situation, rather than thinking that the situation is wrong in the first place.

(not saying I agree with robin 100%, but it is an interesting point)

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

I think that that is exactly the point.

Indeed, belief in a benevolent creator it is the point. We are just going around in circles here, though.

Wicknight wrote: »

This is where the SS comes into play. What you aren't doing questioning this set up in the first place, in the same way that hostages are focused simply on pleasing the hostage takers to get out of the situation, rather than thinking that the situation is wrong in the first place.

(not saying I agree with robin 100%, but it is an interesting point)

I'm sorry, Wicknight, but how exactly do you know what I have and and have not questioned? What you have done is assume something about me (and other other Christians) to support your position.

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Whatever your view on God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, Christians, as a whole, don't subscribe to the notion that they are malevolent entities bent on total control

Well, whatever people think about their deities, most modern variations of christianity are fairly specific in saying that believers must believe that certain things are true or do certain things (or both), to avoid burning in hell. That's the control I'm talking about and it seems that you are having desperate trouble seeing it, which seems to be a symptom of SS too

And that's a FACT.*

(*) Convincing, eh?

iUseVi

Wicknight wrote: »

I think that that is exactly the point.

That would probably because so few Christians believe they are actually going to hell.

You think if you do right by God he will not send you to hell, so why worry about hell? You aren't going there

That's hit the nail on the head. You hear Christians forever talking about how it will be glorious when they are in heaven, with all the rest of the saints. They just about always don't even consider the alternative.

Even when there is a bible verse that has both considerations; they only read out the half that has the part about going to heaven.

They never assume they might be going to hell. Have you ever met a Christian that thinks they are going to hell? Of course not.

Not only that, but they are always earnestly praying for their friends and relatives; so that they could "see the light". The whole thing is selfish. How about praying for the world, or the universe, or in some manner for everyone? Not just the people that you think would be desirable to have around.

gordon_gekko

robindch wrote: »

It's fairly straightforward. Within SS, people who believe themselves to be under the total control of an agent who has life-or-death power over them, tend, where they can, to support the agent or go along passively, presumably in the hope that the agent won't be irritated to the point of killing them.

In this case, the praise lavished upon the capricious and violent deity of the OT who created the threatening political world in which true believers think they exist, can be seen as structurally quite similar to the praise lavished by the citizens of the DPRK upon the creator of their system. From the outside, it's easier to see that the creator (virtual or otherwise) of each system is engaging in moral blackmail of its inhabitants.

Clearer?

CRYSTAL clear mate

gordon_gekko

having being brought up in a religous household but no longer being a religous person myself and having observed the world for the 30 yrs of my existence , having seen all the stories on tv about famine , war etc , ive come to the conclusion that the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

ps. dont tell me that wars and famines are down to free will , the ol cop out of pointing to free will doesnt wash with the situation in burma right now
cyclones dont have free will , oh and you cant use global warming as an excuse either as most christians dont believe in global warming , well in the usa anyhow

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Indeed, belief in a benevolent creator it is the point.

Not quite. The position you take that your god is benevolent is the point.

Everyone else (on the non-worshipping side) seems to think your god is a horrible monster. The question is why do you not.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm sorry, Wicknight, but how exactly do you know what I have and and have not questioned?

From your posts and the way you support your beliefs in these posts. Particularly the posts where you argue the justice and morality of your god.

You do post here a lot Fanny, its pretty easy to build up a good idea of how you view your faith and the nature of God's actions towards us.

robindch

gordon_gekko wrote: »

the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

That's one possibility -- the 'bad-cop' one -- of the various ones which form the 'rational choice' approach to explaining religion. The good-cop side includes notions like receiving eternal life in exchange for belief, reuniting with one's dead friends and family, some life-improving event attributed to the deity prayed-to and so on. While there are enough reasons floating around for a some proportion of the believer population to acquire religious belief using a rational-choice approach, I don't believe it's anything close to a majority.

Different religious ideas use different approaches, but regardless, it seems to me that religious belief is acquired mainly unconsciously, with only a small proportion of believers post-hoc rationalizing their earlier choice using some rational-seeming explanation.

PDN

gordon_gekko wrote: »

having being brought up in a religous household but no longer being a religous person myself and having observed the world for the 30 yrs of my existence , having seen all the stories on tv about famine , war etc , ive come to the conclusion that the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

ps. dont tell me that wars and famines are down to free will , the ol cop out of pointing to free will doesnt wash with the situation in burma right now
cyclones dont have free will , oh and you cant use global warming as an excuse either as most christians dont believe in global warming , well in the usa anyhow

This is boards.ie - not boards.usa. If you want to argue on the basis of what "most christians" believe in the USA I suggest that you take your argument to an American internet forum. I would also suggest that you learn to get your facts straight, as I think you are wrong about what most Christians in the US believe.

I think it is certainly possible that human pollution can contribute to events such as a cyclone. That would not just include global warming, but also the effects of testing atomic weapons, the pollution of the ocean with billions of plastic bags etc. Also, in Myanmar we have people living in exposed areas due to global and national economic inequality and injustice, and the absence of early warning or evacuation measures due to a crap government and a global community that is more interested in applying sticking plasters of aid after disasters than in funding the measures to avoid disasters.

I love God, and I pray to Him, which I find immensely satisfying and rewarding. I certainly am not afraid of Him punishing me.

gordon_gekko

PDN wrote: »

This is boards.ie - not boards.usa. If you want to argue on the basis of what "most christians" believe in the USA I suggest that you take your argument to an American internet forum. I would also suggest that you learn to get your facts straight, as I think you are wrong about what most Christians in the US believe.

I think it is certainly possible that human pollution can contribute to events such as a cyclone. That would not just include global warming, but also the effects of testing atomic weapons, the pollution of the ocean with billions of plastic bags etc. Also, in Myanmar we have people living in exposed areas due to global and national economic inequality and injustice, and the absence of early warning or evacuation measures due to a crap government and a global community that is more interested in applying sticking plasters of aid after disasters than in funding the measures to avoid disasters.

I love God, and I pray to Him, which I find immensely satisfying and rewarding. I certainly am not afraid of Him punishing me.

there were no early warning devices 300 yrs ago to warn people( who lived in poorly constructed houses ) of imminent tsunamis or cyclones
nuclear weapons are a modern day phenomenon , so to is pollution

nice try though to get your god of the hook

PDN

gordon_gekko wrote: »

there were no early warning devices 300 yrs ago to warn people( who lived in poorly constructed houses ) of imminent tsunamis or cyclones
nuclear weapons are a modern day phenomenon , so to is pollution

nice try though to get your god of the hook

You posted about what's happening in Burma now, not about 300 years ago. we can only answer what you actually post about. If you want someone to respond to stuff that you haven't actually posted yet then I suggest you try the Spirituality Board and see if there are any psychics there.

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Well, whatever people think about their deities, most modern variations of christianity are fairly specific in saying that believers must believe that certain things are true or do certain things (or both), to avoid burning in hell. That's the control I'm talking about and it seems that you are having desperate trouble seeing it, which seems to be a symptom of SS too

And that's a FACT.*

(*) Convincing, eh?

Ah, very good! Tell me, are you simply thinking out loud? Or is there something a little more substantive behind the claim? Funnily enough, one of the few mentions of Stockholm Syndrome and Christianity I came across on the interweb was in relation to Revelations.

Wicknight wrote: »

Not quite. The position you take that your god is benevolent is the point.

Everyone else (on the non-worshipping side) seems to think your god is a horrible monster.

You speak for all non-Christians now?

Wicknight wrote: »

From your posts and the way you support your beliefs in these posts. Particularly the posts where you argue the justice and morality of your god.

You do post here a lot Fanny, its pretty easy to build up a good idea of how you view your faith and the nature of God's actions towards us.

Indeed, much like yourself, I do post here a lot - too much, in fact. Yet despite my 100's of posts, I have said relatively little about what I have or have not questioned with regards to my faith. Again, you assume that I (or other Christians) have or do not ask the big questions as doing so supports your position.

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Funnily enough, one of the few mentions of Stockholm Syndrome and Christianity I came across on the interweb was in relation to Revelations.

Try searching for SS and religion instead -- remember that it applies to many more religions than just christianity.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Ah, very good! Tell me, are you simply thinking out loud? Or is there something a little more substantive behind the claim?

Er, I'm pointing out that there's a similarity. Not everybody can see it, but that inability itself is a fundamental part of the syndrome

FACT.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You speak for all non-Christians now?

I'm not claiming to speak for anyone, I'm saying that they appear to think your God is a horrible monster. The "I don't believe in your god, but I do think he sounds wonderful" posts are a little thin on the ground on boards.ie

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yet despite my 100's of posts, I have said relatively little about what I have or have not questioned with regards to my faith

That's not true, you have posted quite a bit on that subject, certainly enough for someone how regularly reads these forums to get an idea about the level of critical analysis and questioning you seem prepared to get into over these issues.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Again, you assume that I (or other Christians) have or do not ask the big questions as doing so supports your position.

No, I take the position because you don't appear to honestly "ask the big questions" as you put it (by honestly I mean happy to accept an answer you don't like or that doesn't serve a useful purpose to you).

wolfsbane

gordon_gekko wrote: »

having being brought up in a religous household but no longer being a religous person myself and having observed the world for the 30 yrs of my existence , having seen all the stories on tv about famine , war etc , ive come to the conclusion that the only logical reason to either love god or pray to him is because if you dont , he will punish you

ps. dont tell me that wars and famines are down to free will , the ol cop out of pointing to free will doesnt wash with the situation in burma right now
cyclones dont have free will , oh and you cant use global warming as an excuse either as most christians dont believe in global warming , well in the usa anyhow

The existence of evil/evil events does indeed make one ask if God exists, or if He does, is He good? The Bible gives us the answer - at least enough of the answer for us to make rational decisions on.

The evil that exists is down to man's sin, both original and personal. Man's sin in the person of our original father, Adam, brought suffering and death on all his posterity, for we all inherited his fallen nature and God's judgement on it.

Man's sin in the present, our's individually, also causes much suffering and in turn brings further judgement from God.

Is God right to punish sin? Yes, since He is holy and just.

Is the Burma cyclone an example of specific judgement against individual's today or part of the general judgement on mankind that has continued since the Fall? Mostly the latter, I reckon. But for some individuals it could be their terminus as a judgement on whatever went on in their lives.

Many people, saints and sinners, die from disease every day. No element of personal judgement is involved. But some others die precisely because of their sin. A Biblical example:
Acts 12:20 Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him with one accord, and having made Blastus the king’s personal aide their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king’s country.
21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.
24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

Ekancone

wolfsbane wrote: »

The existence of evil/evil events does indeed make one ask if God exists, or if He does, is He good? The Bible gives us the answer - at least enough of the answer for us to make rational decisions on.

The evil that exists is down to man's sin, both original and personal. Man's sin in the person of our original father, Adam, brought suffering and death on all his posterity, for we all inherited his fallen nature and God's judgement on it.

Man's sin in the present, our's individually, also causes much suffering and in turn brings further judgement from God.

Is God right to punish sin? Yes, since He is holy and just.

Is the Burma cyclone an example of specific judgement against individual's today or part of the general judgement on mankind that has continued since the Fall? Mostly the latter, I reckon. But for some individuals it could be their terminus as a judgement on whatever went on in their lives.

Many people, saints and sinners, die from disease every day. No element of personal judgement is involved. But some others die precisely because of their sin. A Biblical example:
Acts 12:20 Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him with one accord, and having made Blastus the king’s personal aide their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king’s country.
21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.
24 But the word of God grew and multiplied.

You know, out of every 'believers' postings on here, I think I like yours the best. No bull****, this is what the bible says, end of story.