Renewable product comparsion difficulties in Ireland.

AckwelFoley

sinnerboy wrote: »

OR ... it would be a big help if SEI would populate it's HARP database for
- solar thermal panlels and
- heat pumps

They are "waiting for the industry" to "issue data"

"The industry" , based on many e mail enquiries I have made , are not interested in playing ball .

SEI need to raise their game here . Stop subsiding this lot .

SEI have no problem in publishing what can be seen as a league table for boilers in the current HARP database . So why not to follow suit with the infinately more expensive renewable technologies ?

If anyone wants to start to research I have yet to be told where better than the first post here - any other suggestions Snyper ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055263818

Ive seen that thread and i think its a great idea, for the forum here in general.

One big issue i have with it is the question on "how well is the house insulated" From my expierence the replies to yes can often far from correct. Even of the house is over and above the new regulations for a B1 standard, it means nothing if the insulation is poorly fitted. I really only came to appreciate the importance of avoiding "gaps" in the fitting of insulation or using inadequet insulation in one area of the structure and causing a thermal draught which can have a massive effect on the heat loss of the house and in turn completely throw off the figures. Two houses could be exactly the same and on the same site but can give 2 competely different results from a BER heat loss test. Our company has went to houses that were "well insulated" by the customers claim, yet when the site visit was done.. we wouldnt sell them a heat pump when the actual specs were there to be seen. 100mm fiberglass in the attic is not "well insulated" :eek:

So, to sum up what im saying, the insulation, is a critical factor of a house, alond with thermal heat loss values of windows and structure itself, along with whether there is the use of HRV on top of that, so in effect that are of the questionaire needs to be expanded in my opinion.

sinnerboy

That thread is not perfect of course . It will indicate sketch evidence at best partly for the reasons you so well describe . What else do we have to go on though ?

But I can't help wondering if you are not side-stepping the point of my last post .

With HARP we can compare boilers .

Their is no consumer freindly ( or for that matter BER assessor freindly ) way to confidently compare heat pumps or solar panels and predict their performance .

Please correct me if I am wrong .

The "renewables" industry won't supply the information to SEI . SEI are too chicken s*** to force the issue ..... just dole out (our) tax payers money in grant aid to those lucky enough to be be able to self build or renovate .

MY HOPE ( which I have posted before ) is that the insulation grants scheme really takes off and that funds are diverted AWAY from "renewable" technologies providers that refuse to transparently demostatrate the effectiveness of their kit and TOWARDS grant aided insulation , lagging jackets , draft stripping , heating controls etc for that part of our society which can not afford the luxury of self building or renovation

to assist outfits like this

http://www.energyaction.ie/home.html

Anybody doubting the need for this look to page 32 of this report

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:R3x_sbYoZC0J:www.ucd.ie/gpep/gpepinfo/publications/workingpapers/02-05.pdf+fuel+poverty+in+ireland&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ie

AckwelFoley

sinnerboy wrote: »

That thread is not perfect of course . It will indicate sketch evidence at best partly for the reasons you so well describe . What else do we have to go on though ?

But I can't help wondering if you are not side-stepping the point of my last post .

With HARP we can compare boilers .

Their is no consumer freindly ( or for that matter BER assessor freindly ) way to confidently compare heat pumps or solar panels and predict their performance .

Please correct me if I am wrong .

The "renewables" industry won't supply the information to SEI . SEI are too chicken s*** to force the issue ..... just dole out (our) tax payers money in grant aid to those lucky enough to be be able to self build or renovate .

MY HOPE ( which I have posted before ) is that the insulation grants scheme really takes off and that funds are diverted AWAY from "renewable" technologies providers that refuse to transparently demostatrate the effectiveness of their kit and TOWARDS grant aided insulation , lagging jackets , draft stripping , heating controls etc for that part of our society which can not afford the luxury of self building or renovation

to assist outfits like this

http://www.energyaction.ie/home.html

Anybody doubting the need for this look to page 32 of this report

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:R3x_sbYoZC0J:www.ucd.ie/gpep/gpepinfo/publications/workingpapers/02-05.pdf+fuel+poverty+in+ireland&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ie

No, im not at all side stepping your question

Im not exactly sure as to what you are looking for from the "industry". Im perfectly happy to give all tec details of all the products that the company i work for supply. Any product we supply has been thorougly tested by ourselves or the manufacturer. We are hoping to get involved in wind turbine supply this year, we've been testing for the last few months and are yet not satisfied, and are in the process of getting further tests done.

Again, to be honest, im the type of guy that, if im not 100% happy with what im selling, i wont bother my arse with it.. sure.. if you want to buy a woodpellet boiler off me.. i'll sell you one if you insist.. but to be honest there are too many issues involved in the WP niche that are giving problems.

If you have a list of exactly what details you are looking for, id love to look at them and give you my thoughts

I just want to reiterate my point that its difficult to comapre 2 different heaat pumps when there is never a case when all other factors involved are equal, thats why we (the supplier) require the figure from the customer of what kw/h per sq meter your house will consume in order to give you an accurate performance value. You'd be amazed the amount of ppl give is a funny look when we ask for an assesment to be done on their house.. they dont want to spend the extraa 300 euros getting it done.. a 300 euro they funnily enough are going to have to spend after January 2009.

sinnerboy

It is SEI that are awaiting input from "the industry" which , for the purposes of this post I mean , those who market and install heat pumps and solar panels

All heating methods are subject "to all things being equal" and an energy assessment of the entire build .

If I want to check out a gas boiler I can look here

http://www.sei.ie/app_harp_boilers.asp?ID=1

If I want to check out a heat pump I look .... where ?

Here ?

http://www.sei.ie/app_harp_heat_pumps.asp

Or solar panels - here ?

http://www.sei.ie/app_harp_solar_collectors.asp

I don't accept that it is difficult to grade heat pumps on their performance as "there is never a case when all other factors involved are equal" applies to all heating methods and yet we have

http://www.sei.ie/app_harp_boilers.asp?ID=1 for gas boilers .

Why not for heat pumps ?

In simple terms questions i would ask you is

What COP will your heat pump perform to ? How can this be demonstrated to be true ?

How much hot water will your solar panels produce ( for an assumed set of climatic conditions - should be a standardised assesment method for all panels on the market )

What is the nature of your and your manfacturers "thorough testing" ?

How does that testing compare to other companies testing - would you not prefer an independant testing regime that all the industry had to conform to ? This would weed the messers for the likes of you Snyper ( and more importantly , your customers )

How can you or your customers be re assured of the products performance - or the predicted / idealised performance , if you prefer ?

Now I am not questioning your integrity at all Snyper , quite the opposite

Would you not be happier to say "look on the SEI Harp database - you will see there that our products are independantly shown to be reliable / efficient"

smashey

Moving posts here from the "East/West facing solar water heating" thread.

AckwelFoley

Well taking the questions you have asked there, the answer is rather simple..

All the heat pumps on the market has a COP value, a value that is determined by the manufacturer.

Similarly with solar panels, if info similar to this (below) is what is required for comaprsion, honestly.. i cant see a reason why sei cant have that data online, if they have if for other products already.

Solar Panel Technical Data

Product make: Boards.ie Solar Aperture area (m2): 1.829 m2
Product model: KS Gross surface area (m2): 2.101 m2
Model number: 2000 S/P Rated heat output: 1.4 kW
Collector type: flat plate Estimated energy yield: 910 kWh

sinnerboy

So for boilers performance we have

http://www.sedbuk.com/ and SEI HARP

and for heat pumps we have "a value that is determined by the manufacturer"

I prefer to look here , to Switzerland . Shame on SEI

http://www.ntb.ch/3896.html

For solar thermal products performance - look to Denmark .

http://www.estif.org/solarkeymark/

I don't think I can add anything else of value to this thread

sydthebeat

the problem with heat pumps, as i see it, is that the coefficient of performance can vary widely depending on external factors. I have seen table of COPs for some heat pumps vary from 2 to 7 or even 8..... the biggest factors is the difference between input and output energy.....
obvious if an air to water heat pump is working when its -5 outside and heating a room to say 23 deg then its going to be working overtime and its COP will be low. This doesnt effect gas / oil / wood pellet etc as the only external factors they depend on is the quality of the fuel. This is the reason any COP of a heat pump, on the grid, has to be greater than the grids own COP of 2.7 (inverted) or whatever it is.... to be deemed renewable....

SEI need to define the parameters for working out the COP of heat pumps, to suit the irish situation.