M50 Toll Plans

thebigshot

I would suggest that everyone voices their disapproval over plans to increase the cash price of the toll to €3.

The alternative is an active RFID chip in your car where you can be tracked, and also the annual charge that you have to pay for the chip (around €40).

Infact demand that the toll is done away with altogeather as I have done.

Email info@transport.ie

I prefer a bit of freedom.

Guy:Incognito

thebigshot wrote: »

The alternative is an active RFID chip in your car where you can be tracked, and also the annual charge that you have to pay for the chip (around €40).

The prices have been outlined on a few threads already and start at around €10/€12. I dont think anyones opinion of €10 a year could strech it to mean "around €40"

thebigshot wrote: »

I prefer a bit of freedom.

You have plenty of freedom. You can choose to have the tag, pay by cash or not use the bridge.

thebigshot

Stekelly wrote: »

The prices have been outlined on a few threads already and start at around €10/€12. I dont think anyones opinion of €10 a year could strech it to mean "around €40".

Well for a start my old man has a chip, and the purchase cost alone is €40.

Stekelly wrote: »

You have plenty of freedom. You can choose to have the tag, pay by cash or not use the bridge.

Don't be stupid, I am not a fan of the survelliance society,

Guy:Incognito

thebigshot wrote: »

Well for a start my old man has a chip, and the purchase cost alone is €40.
,

You said annual charge of €40, not purchase price.

thebigshot wrote: »

Don't be stupid, I am not a fan of the survelliance society,

How is it stupid? and how is it a surveilance society if you have a choice to opt out?

thebigshot

Stekelly wrote: »

You said annual charge of €40, not purchase price.?

Just you give it time. It is called "the thin edge of the wedge" in business.

Stekelly wrote: »

How is it stupid? and how is it a surveilance society if you have a choice to opt out?

And what other alternative have people got, they have to get to work. It takes long enough without venturing around Blanchardstown or the phoenix park.

It is called coercion.

mikemac

thebigshot wrote: »

Don't be stupid, I am not a fan of the survelliance society,

I could see the records on the M50 being used in criminal cases in the future. Similar to the Joe O'Reilly case and mobile phones.

They could see if your car passed a checkpoint and maybe check cameras for that time.
And the barristers could ask "where were you at x time last Friday?"

I'm not saying it's good or bad, just interesting
But offtopic for the motor forum though

Guy:Incognito

thebigshot wrote: »

Just you give it time. It is called "the thin edge of the wedge" in business..

So you made it up and are covering it by your own assumption that the price will rise?

micmclo wrote: »

I could see the records on the M50 being used in criminal cases in the future. Similar to the Joe O'Reilly case and mobile phones.

They could see if your car passed a checkpoint and maybe check cameras for that time.
And the barristers could ask "where were you at x time last Friday?"

I'm not saying it's good or bad, just interesting
But offtopic for the motor forum though

They could do the same with any traffic cameras already in place or with a parkign ticket etc.

I dotn see a problem in useing any means nessecary to catch criminals. Dont see it being a valid cause for complaint either. "but your honour, I know I murdered him, but it's not fair that you used my toll receipt to catch me"

markos79

The alternative is an active RFID chip in your car where you can be tracked

can this be used for recording your speed??????



"but your honour, I know I murdered him, but it's not fair that you used my toll receipt to catch me"

cyclopath2001

markos79 wrote: »

The alternative is an active RFID chip in your car where you can be tracked can this be used for recording your speed??????
"but your honour, I know I murdered him, but it's not fair that you used my toll receipt to catch me"

Some of these devices are passive, only responding in a low-powered beam directed at them. They have a very short range and only work when close enough to a emitter/detector. This may be close enough at a toll plaza but insufficient on the open road.

An active system (i.e. where the car's emitter is powered), such as the AMB system used in car racing, could be very useful to motorists in managing their compliance with speed regulations.

There are also trials (outside of Ireland) which could monitor vehicle speed based on your mobile phone signal.

-Chris-

The increasing of the toll is worth protesting, I don't think RFID is though.

Aren't there already cameras at the Toll Plazas recording vehicle regs? Won't these be upgraded (if they're not already) to include licence plate recognition to allow them to catch people who don't pay the toll?

Whether you take the RFID or not you'll still be under surveillence - I think you're making too much of this.

Sandwich

Any one know the best routes to avoid it? Inner or outer options.

msg11

e-mail sent.

I should hope more people e-mail and make a pheking stand. This is shocking. We should also take to the rise now about the tunnel tolls. We paid for most of that tunnel to be built. And we have to paid mad prices to use it. 3 Euro after 10 at night ???? !!

Max_Damage

James Bond-style rotating reg. plates FTW!

Surely you can still get Easy Pass tags when the new system comes in?

Breezer

Sandwich wrote: »

Any one know the best routes to avoid it? Inner or outer options.

I've tried it a few times, none of the routes I've found are particularly good though.

You can go off at the N4 exit, through Lucan village, up by Clonsilla, through Blanchardstown village and back onto the M50. You're not meant to turn left up by Fort Lucan though, and you can also get caught for ages at Clonsilla train station if the level crossing is closed.

Alternatively come off at the N4 and drive towards town, go through the Phoenix Park and back on at Blanchardstown. This involves either going through Castleknock or down Auburn Avenue though, which are both permanently jammed.

You could try varying route 2 by going through Chapelizod rather than the park but I think there's major roadworks there at the moment and you still end up in Castleknock anyway.

Basically the toll is the best of a bad lot from what I can see, although if anyone has any other suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

dubtom

Is this active RFID chip different from the easy pass I just got this week,which incidently was free,just an inital charge of €40 credit.

MercMad

What was wrong with the old system of tokens ?

My objection, apart from the rising prices obviously is that the chip cannot be transferred from car to car. I operate and travel in various vehicles regularly and dont intend to buy a chip for each one, since I dont use the M50 that often !

PaddyFagan

MercMad wrote: »

What was wrong with the old system of tokens ?

My objection, apart from the rising prices obviously is that the chip cannot be transferred from car to car. I operate and travel in various vehicles regularly and dont intend to buy a chip for each one, since I dont use the M50 that often !

They're offering three options - see http://www.eflow.ie/open_account.php

1) Get a tag
2) Register your reg(s) and a payment mechanism (bank or cc I guess) and they'll read your reg when you use the brigde and charge you €2.50 a go
3) Contact the payment line upto 8pm on the day after you use the bridge, supply your reg and pay €3.

Option 4 is don't pay - and they'll be in touch with a "notice" initailly for €6, which goes up over time if you don't pay - http://www.eflow.ie/enforcement.php

The site also mentions of payzone - looks like you can also pay using top-up like a pay as you go mobile....?

Paddy

prospect

I plan to avoid the bridge.

If enough people do that it will have a better effect than e-mailing them. Not only will they loose revenue, but they will come under increased pressure from residents & business along the alternative routes that would undoubtedly get clogged up. It would be better to have €1 from 100,000 motorists a day than have €3 from 10,000.

thebigshot

All I can say is to email them your thoughts;

info@transport.ie

As for the comments regarding my assertion that the cost will rise dramatically when this is introduced.

You see I use my experience of the past and apply it to this situation.

It will happen unless we make a stand.

astraboy

The RFID tags are useless for tracking, they are passive and only activated when near a relevant reader, ie, at the toll booth. If it was a case of using GPS as some rather stupid posters have mentioned, I would be very wary of the surveillance society and being caught breaking the speed limit etc. RFID tags don't have these worrys.

thebigshot

astraboy wrote: »

I would be very wary of the surveillance society and being caught breaking the speed limit etc. RFID tags don't have these worrys.

You are a bit late, mate. Have you travelled on the malahide road or the M1 lately. Cameras everywhere, up and down each individual lane and also being erected at this time around the M50 bridge.

Look up Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR).

faceman

I dont have anything to hide personally so i wouldnt have an issue par se with a tag on cars. Its how the data is stored and used i would be interested in.

If people are not into the tags cos they dont want their illegal activities to be brought to the attention of the authorites, well we dont really give a toss about them.

jimmycrackcorm

thebigshot wrote: »

I would suggest that everyone voices their disapproval over plans to increase the cash price of the toll to €3.

The alternative is an active RFID chip in your car where you can be tracked, and also the annual charge that you have to pay for the chip (around €40).

Infact demand that the toll is done away with altogeather as I have done.

Email info@transport.ie

I prefer a bit of freedom.

Yet you probably have a mobile phone which is easily tracked whereas there's no infrastructure for rfid tracking.

It always irritated me how many people used the M50 without getting an Eazypass tag. People complained about the westlink delays but were happy to clog up the M50 while fumbling for change.

C.D.

E-mail sent, thought the main points outlined in mine were that the taxpayer has paid for the M50,M1,M11 and a private operator pays for a 500m bridge and then charges us to cross it. Either the gov. need to offer a viable alternative to the M50 or abolish the tolls. I sent the e-mail to:

seamusbrennan@dast.gov.ie
seamus.brennan@oireachtas.ie
minister@transport.ie
info@transport.ie

veryangryman

As for avoiding the bridge, thats never gonna happen. How many people know of the rat run around the toll bridge? Its not signposted (god help an accompanied L-Driver who wants to obey the law and avoid a motorway, while going northbound) and it never will be because as said before, residents dont want half of Dublin bypassers going through their area.

Its such a scam. Someone should just organise a week-long protest of not paying the toll (they have to lift the barrier and let you by - they just take your details).

They dont have the resources to chase up a million non-paying citzens, and neither do the Gardai to enforce it. Problem solved :pac:

fletch

Breezer wrote: »

You can go off at the N4 exit, through Lucan village, up by Clonsilla, through Blanchardstown village and back onto the M50. You're not meant to turn left up by Fort Lucan though.

Since when?

L1011

thebigshot wrote: »

Just you give it time. It is called "the thin edge of the wedge" in business.

Its called 'economies of scale' and 'competition' - the tags have been getting cheaper as the number of tag issuers has increased. Mine costs 50c/month.

L1011

dubtom wrote: »

Is this active RFID chip different from the easy pass I just got this week,which incidently was free,just an inital charge of €40 credit.

Wasn't the original eazypass a number plate recognition system with a sticker on the car? Current eazypass's are RFID tags already.

Breezer

fletch wrote: »

Since when?

Don't know to be honest, but I noticed the sign there the last time I did it, about 2 weeks ago.

Oh C.D., Noel Dempsey is the Minister for Transport these days. Brennan is Sport.

Bee

I am no fan of the Herald but at least they are running an anti-toll rip off campaign

Heres a link if you want to add your name to the petition they are collecting

"THOUSANDS of people have already signed up to the Herald's campaign to fight the unjust hikes in the M50 toll.

Keep up the momentum and get your friends and family to sign the Fight The Toll petition, which will be sent to Transport Minister Noel Dempsey.

315,000 people read the Herald daily - make sure your voice is heard on this issue and oppose the NRA's increase. "

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/evening-herald-m50-campaign--your-emails-and-texts-1362165.html?action=Email

chris85

MYOB wrote: »

Wasn't the original eazypass a number plate recognition system with a sticker on the car? Current eazypass's are RFID tags already.

dont think so you can simply transfer the eazypass to different cars no problem, i have done it a good few times.

No number plate recognition

faceman

What will be the story with taxi charges?

At the moment if a taxi uses a toll road, the toll is lobbed on the fare which is fair enough. However if the driver hasnt bother his arse to get a tag and only uses the most expensive option, then thats hardly fair on the passenger?

L1011

chris85 wrote: »

dont think so you can simply transfer the eazypass to different cars no problem, i have done it a good few times.

No number plate recognition

The current one definately doesn't as its an RFID tag, I'm thinking about when it came in in 2001/2 - I seem to remember people who had it getting a car sticker as thats what the cameras used... Its a massive RFID tag compaed to the other providers too.

thebigshot

faceman wrote: »

However if the driver hasnt bother his arse to get a tag and only uses the most expensive option, then thats hardly fair on the passenger?

Maybe he is trying to make a point by not registering.

You see if everyone stood up to this impliction, the government would have to back down.

The fightin' irish?, I have seen more spirit in a lump of plywood.

C.D.

Too quite a while to get a reply, I don't feel my e-mail was really addressed- I already new that the tolls are used to fund roads etc. My point was that it has already been paid for many times over (as the NRA took a portion of the tolls prior to August '08). Certainly I don't think the Gov. is going to give up such a lucrative source of revenue without a fight.

E-mail wrote:

Dear x,

I refer to your e-mail of 30 April 2008 concerning the issue of the M50 toll plaza. Please accept my apologies for the delay in replying to you.

I should explain that the Minister for Transport is responsible for overall policy and funding in relation to the national roads programme element of Transport 21. The implementation of individual national road projects, including the M50, is a matter for the National Roads Authority (NRA) under the Roads Act, 1993 in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. In addition, the statutory power to levy tolls on national roads, to make toll bye-laws, and to enter into toll agreements with private investors in respect of national roads is vested in the NRA under Part V of the Roads Act 1993 (as amended by the Planning and Development Act 2000 and the Roads Act 2007).

The M50 has experienced massive traffic growth in line with economic and employment growth and increased car ownership rates. Average annual daily traffic flows on a number of sections of the M50 are in excess of 85,000 vehicles and major congestion does occur at peak times. Priority has been given by the Government under Transport 21 and the National Development Plan to accelerating works to alleviate M50 congestion. The solution to M50 congestion is the upgrade of the M50 along with the move to barrier free tolling.

Once complete, the M50 upgrade scheme will have significant benefits, as it will:
- Expand the capacity of the M50 to deal with 50% more traffic than at present;
- Improve average peak hour speeds;
- Reduce traffic congestion on the radial routes (N3, N4, N7); and
- Improve traffic flow on the whole of the Dublin road network.

The upgrade project, which is being carried out in three distinct phases, will cost approximately ?1 billion. Phases 1 and 3 of the project are substantially complete with Phase 2 scheduled to be finished in 2010. The Upgrade is set to be completed on time and within its overall budget. Indeed road users are already seeing the benefits of this project as Phases 1 and 3 near full completion.

The transition to barrier free tolling, which I understand from the NRA, is on schedule to become operational in August 2008, will entail the removal of the current West-Link Toll Plaza (a part of the M50 which was originally built by private funding in the 1980s and only about to return to full State ownership in August 2008) and its replacement with a fully electronic barrier-free tolling system that will allow drivers to travel unencumbered along the M50. This should help to further significantly improve traffic flow on the route and make a very positive contribution towards the easing of congestion for all road users.

All net revenue generated from barrier free tolling on the M50 will be reinvested by the NRA in the national road network and will in the first instance help fund the ongoing M50 upgrade works, which I have referred to above.

As I outlined above tolling levels are set by the NRA in a set of toll bye-laws following a full and transparent public consultation process. The tolls that will apply on the M50 at Westlink were made available for public consultation in September 2007 before being finally agreed a little earlier this year.

I trust this clarifies the position for you as it relates to this Department and our role in tolling policy and the M50. If you require any further detailed information on M50 tolling please contact the NRA on info@nra.ie in the first instance .

Yours sincerely

x
Road Policy Division
Department of Transport

---

Original Message

---

Sent: 30 April 2008 19:25
To: Department of Transport; MINISTER'S OFFICE;
Subject: M50 Toll Plaza


Dear Sir/Madam,

It was with interest that I read the recent issues regarding the M50 in
the press. While I am relieved to say that there will no longer be a
physical barrier bringing the traffic to a halt, I was aghast at the
system proposed for those using the "Toll plaza".

It is my understanding that the taxes paid by Irish citizens
(specifically those paid by motorists) are used to fund the development
and maintenance of the country's infrastructure. Granted, the plaza is
operated by a private operator, but who paid for the construction of the
hundreds of kilometers that compromise the M50/M11? In a scenario that
seems like it could have been pulled from fiction, thousands of
motorists are then herded onto and charged to use a 500 meter bridge.
Undoubtedly the cost of the plaza has been recuperated many times over
by the charges paid by motorists, with the government taking a hefty
proportion
(http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/ProjectTracker/M50SecondWest-LinkBridge/).
If one is to look to our neighbours on the continent, the toll roads
operate as an alternative to the national routes. The toll company
builds the motorway from start to finish, usually several hundred
kilometers, as opposed to the state funding the hundreds of kilometers
of motorway construction.

However considering the M50 was built using taxpayer's money and the
only alternative is drive on the congested secondary routes (the very
roads the M50 was supposed to be taking traffic off), it seems
tantamount to daylight robbery that a cash-rich government who has
invested unprecedented amounts into this country's infrastructure
should let the plaza be 1) Be operated by a private company who 2)
Charges exorbitant tolls. If one does the maths, a commuter on minimum
wage taking driving through the toll bridge twice daily to work (even
when taking the cheapest option into account) pays nearly 6% of their
yearly pay crossing the toll plaza. In the interests of the people, the
government/NRA should offer a viable alternative to using the toll plaza
or abolish the scandalous tolls, as it stands I know I shall be avoiding
the toll plaza and thus adding to the congestion on secondary and
tertiary routes in the vicinity of the M50.

Regards,
...

G-Money

Can't you just keep using EasyPass with the new system? I thought you could...

L1011

You can, yes.

faceman

MYOB wrote: »

You can, yes.

Is there a monthly charge like there is with the eflow tags? I have an eazypass but nothing on their website talks about costs.

L1011

You've been paying a monthly admin fee for that since day 1.

faceman

MYOB wrote: »

You've been paying a monthly admin fee for that since day 1.

Not as far as i am aware. i only see the 40yoyo deduction on my credit card when my top up is low.

L1011

It comes out of your credit... check your statements.

R.O.R

Does anyone know if you'll still be able to use the Eazypass (or e-flow tag) in multiple vehicles? I know the Eazypass can be used in any vehicle at the moment, but will the numberplate recognition put a stop to this?

L1011

It won't work in the vehicle its not registered to (well, it will, it'll get charged AND the vehicle's plate will be read and charged too...) with the new system.

mickdw

What if you get one of these tags and leave it at home the odd time.
If they get the number plate and bill you, surely all they can do is charge you the tag rate for the trip as you could argue its down to their technology not picking up the tag for whatever reason.
I suspect they are not going to bill everyone who passes without payment due to the costs involved so maybe some saving to be made.

Savman

Tell ye wot, why don't yiz all avoid the M50 altogether....keeps it free for folks like me to breeze across

Yeah, backroads. :eek:

L1011

mickdw wrote: »

What if you get one of these tags and leave it at home the odd time.
If they get the number plate and bill you, surely all they can do is charge you the tag rate for the trip as you could argue its down to their technology not picking up the tag for whatever reason.
I suspect they are not going to bill everyone who passes without payment due to the costs involved so maybe some saving to be made.

The tags adhere to your car window, its very damn hard to 'leave them at home'!

They don't work reliably or at all if not fitted to the windscreen.

They will be billing everyone who passes without payment as the fee for being chased up is significantly higher than their costs - 40 euro.

G-Money

I'd love to know how they are going to completely remove the toll plaza and sort everything out, without completely ballsing up the traffic for months on end.

If you think about it, they need to remove all the building material, the booths, barriers and I'm sure the road isn't all smooth and perfect underneath the booths either. Not exactly an overnight job I reckon.