Revenue Rip Off Plan?

Bendihorse

Did quick calculation this morning on revenue site to check pre v's post July VRT prices and found something interesting...

The OMSP for a car Pre June is stated at €28140

But after June the OMSP shoots up to €35252!

(Grrr Photobucket not working at moment so had to upload screenshots to the site)

I thought there may be a glitch in the system as the omissions section of the site is new, but check out the second document.
It clearly states 'Revenue Information' with the OLD OMSP under it and beside it 'Customer Information' with the new, inflated price on it!

Please someone reassure me that it is not their plan to shaft people in this fashion, if it is im going to lose what little faith i have remaining in this country and hit the bottle.

B00MSTICK

You may be waiting a while for reassurance unfortunately... Maybe a way of recouping some of the tax on the low Co2 models?

EDIT: Nope, just tried it and the OMSP actually goes up if you stick in 36%...

Mickk

Where on the site is the emissions section? It looks like it might be a mistake as the emisssions is listed at zero...

Bendihorse

Its listed at Zero as they dont have set figures for particular models incorporated into the calculator yet. It allows you to input your own figure (which i looked up and verified on the simi website) and calculates based on that.

Its not the rate of tax i have issue with or anything to do with percentage charged on emissions, its the fact that the Open Market Selling Price goes up by a significant portion after June, in effect reducing the possible saving by almost 50%!!

seanpaul

...em yes it is a mistake alright

....the old revenue have put up its plans to hike up prices post July, but have forgotten to take down the old prices.....um I am pretty sure the old prices will disappear off the system soon...its probably a test run that you just happened to access.

Lets not be fooled: the Government would of sat down with a whole load of accountants from some trumped up company Pricewaterhouse or D&T (people getting paid mega bucks - your taxes) working out what they are earning out of VRT now....then what they will earn out of VRT post July.

If post July the Gov will earn less, well hey lets just increase the OPM selling prices of desirbale cars, hey presto "we are making the same 1.5 Billion Euro a year"

Who cares about freedom of trade and movement of goods in the EU,

who cares about overinflated prices in Ireland,

not the politicians!

Padraig Mor

I've seen this as well. However, the site is returning an OMSP GREATER than the retail price (it's for a brand new car) - surely it would be impossible for them to charge this?!

-Chris-

Is it possible the site is still in testing and you're all worrying about nothing?

Is the link to the site on one of their pages or is it a tweaked URL that you're using?

This doesn't come into effect until 1 July, so I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue didn't have the calculator working properly yet.

Bendihorse

If thats the case AudiChris then why does it clearly state 'Revenue Information' with the OLD OMSP, and 'Customer Information' with the new OMSP? The only mistake is that it displayed both prices IMO.

Someone (not me im too shy :-P) should take this to Joe Duffy or Gerry Ryan. Its bad enough without this happening on top of the double taxation. Bollox to that.

Bendihorse

https://www.ros.ie/VRTEnquiryServlet/showCarCalculatorCc - Old one

https://www.ros.ie/VRTEnquiryServlet/showCarCalculator - New one (You have to go through the motions, but on the second page it allows you to input the Co2 Emissions of your car and recalculate.

Mickk

I think it is still in testing and you just happened to stumble on it. It cant be right, a 01 520 petrol which I have just registered for my missus was 3,000 vrt omsp value 10,000. Under the new system it values it at 17,000 with a vrt of over 6,000. It is not right, no way.

seanpaul

oh the poor revenue...they need more time to do their testing...these are just teething errors....im sure they will sort it all out soon and we can all stop worrying.

Em can we all get real!

1. I wrote to the EU about illegal VRT - got a reply from an guy in Brussels saying that the EU have directed Ireland to stop the use of the VRT system as a purely taxed based system on registration of cars from within the EU.

here's the catch...the EU told the Irish Government that they could use a Co2 based system to impose environmental restrictions on imports --- hey presto exactly what we have.

2. why is it something like £150 to register a car in the UK and can be as much as the Irish Government want €5000, €10000 in Ireland. Simply crazy and we all just put up with it.

(not to mention the **** health service that leaves people on tolleys in A&E when this €1.5 billion extra cash goes somewhere esle, Bertie's off shore bank account me thinks).

3. those nice people at the VRT office, Im sure they will work through the problems with the system....and the next time you look in July, you wont see any old prices, just the nice new higher ones!

4. complain or appeal --- "on your bike"!

-Chris-

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I've seen this as well. However, the site is returning an OMSP GREATER than the retail price (it's for a brand new car) - surely it would be impossible for them to charge this?!

Based on this, I would bet that it's an error. The Open Market Selling Price is what the revenue averages the normal "sale to a punter" price to be. Only highly sought after cars at launch time sell for a premium above their RRP. Everything else sells for less than RRP.

OMSP is also used for Benefit In Kind.

So basically what you're saying is the Revenue has designed some trick new calculator that will give OMSPs that are much higher than the current OMSP (and that in some cases, like above, have no basis in logic), and then use these higher OMSPs to charge more VRT and BIK to the general public, hoping nobody would notice....

Stop with the conspiracy theories lads... :rolleyes:

Tails142

I have been saying this for ages

Dropping the tax rate is meaningless when its based on a figure that is arbitrarily made up

OMSP my bollix

Rob C

Has to be an error as they're double taxing you there.

They are taking the OMSP as the actual correct price then adding the VRT on to arrive at the new price and calculating the VRT based on the percentage of that new price, which of course is wrong.

They are saying The VRT is OMSP X + VRT = New OMSP x X% = VRT due!

seanpaul

"...ahh come on lads.... stop with the conspiracy theories....."

Em...dont think the Revenue need a conspiracy - they are just robbing us all blind right in front of our faces with a bare face cheek and they dont give a dam

what ever the calculators say now - believe me in July they will have factored in higher OMPSs to generate higher taxes,

where is the conspiracy - there is none - its just day light robbery all the way!

someone in County Down pays €10000 for Honda Accord 2004
someone in County Cavan pays €20000 for a Honda Accord 2004
someone in County Down can import a car from the EU and pay €170 fee
someone in County Cavan can import a Honda Accord and pay €5000
someone in County Down is going to pay €150 road tax for a year
someone in County Cavan is going to pay around €600 for year roughly
we could go on and on

this has been done to death the only question is what are all us moaners going to do about it?

-Chris-

OMSP is based on RRP. If the RRP goes down due the new VRT changes, then so will the OMSP. If it goes up, then so will the OMSP.

OMSP can't be higher than the RRP.

As for the whole "VRT is a rip off, everyone in England gets cool cars for super cheap because our government are bad men who over tax us and take all tax and put it into secret offshore accounts" thing... correct - that's been done to death.

It's a glitch in the website, hopefully they'll fix it. If it's the Revenue trying to charge OMSPs that are higher than RRPs, let's wait till that's confirmed and then all start calling Joe Duffy. In the meantime, untwist yer knickers!

VH

AudiChris wrote: »

OMSP can't be higher than the RRP.

It is possible for OMSP+VRT to be greater than RRP tho. Which is nuts.

Bendihorse

AudiChris wrote: »

OMSP is based on RRP. If the RRP goes down due the new VRT changes, then so will the OMSP. If it goes up, then so will the OMSP.

OMSP can't be higher than the RRP.

It CAN be if the car is second as there is no RRP written in stone that you can refer to.

AudiChris wrote: »

It's a glitch in the website, hopefully they'll fix it. If it's the Revenue trying to charge OMSPs that are higher than RRPs, let's wait till that's confirmed and then all start calling Joe Duffy. In the meantime, untwist yer knickers!

Lets hope it is, but i suspect that the 'OMSP' of second hand cars will be increased through the changeover.

peasant

Are you trying to tell me you only found out now, that the omsp for second hand cars is totally arbitrary (most likely pulled out of a hat) ? :D:D

EDIT

germany for example has a thing called the "Schwacke Liste" which lists a guide price for every second hand car, according to year of first registration, trim level and mileage.
There then are a few pointers as to how to judge condition and you've got your price.

No dealings with secret trade lists and prices made up to suit.

ambro25

peasant wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me you only found out now, that the omsp for second hand cars is totally arbitrary (most likely pulled out of a hat) ? :D:D

EDIT

germany for example has a thing called the "Schwacke Liste" which lists a guide price for every second hand car, according to year of first registration, trim level and mileage.
There then are a few pointers as to how to judge condition and you've got your price.

No dealings with secret trade lists and prices made up to suit.

That'll be the ARGUS in France and the Blue Book in the UK, then... Funny how there's no national revenue service "influence" in these :cool:

VRT is a double taxation system, that's nothing new and yes it's been done to death:

X (RRP ex-VAT) x Y (VRT, Y=1.25 e.g.) = 1.25 X = pre-VAT price
pre-VAT price x 1.21 = VAT price

So the (0.25 X) x 1.21 portion = double taxation

OMSP is not RRP, it is an arbitrary figure allegedly representing the second-hand value of a car/model in a given year for a given mileage. Can't find source to decide categorically whether it's supposed to include VRT and VAT (amortized, obviously), or not.

daRobot

Really hope this is not the case or else it's a massive increase in Vrt on some cars.

They should have the intelligence to test their systems properly before putting it live.

seanpaul

isnt VRT a triple tax system really

1. tax on new car - VRT or VAT

2. vrt calculation in OMSP

3. vrt on that

totally against the ethic and principles of the EU ! It really ****s me off and I have sent an email to the Joe Duffy Show.

They wanted me to go on air, but I was a chicken, I was prepared to take part but I didnt want to go on live.

Others should write to the show: joe@rte.ie

perhaps the should get a Minister On to bull**** us all about how hospitals would be closed if they lost VRT

I also wrote to the EU - this is another option.

I am a bit of a socialist and believe that if we all just REFUSED to pay it - overrun the system and it would fail - French style

Guy:Incognito

seanpaul wrote: »

isnt VRT a triple tax system really

1. tax on new car - VRT or VAT

2. vrt calculation in OMSP

3. vrt on that

Your loving yours rants arent you?

You've just put the letters VRT in there 3 times to imply it's paid 3 times in and assuming no one would notice.

It's paid once, when you buy the car new.

If your inporting the car 2nd hand it wont have been paid before.

It's calculated on the retail price here, which would have had VRT paid when it was bought first,but in most cases savigns are made.

You could use the priviledges of the EU and move somewhere that doesnt have vrt and just pay much more for your petrol (avoid countries like Holland in your search, it's all dearer there)

ambro25

seanpaul wrote: »

isnt VRT a triple tax system really

1. tax on new car - VRT or VAT

AFAIK, it's actually both, one after the other. Refer my earlier post.

2. vrt calculation in OMSP

AFAIK the OMSP is based on second hand Irish values, which therefore already include VRT (paid when the car was sold new). So correct (again AFAIK). To be "fair", the OMSP used to calculate VRT should be based on second-hand values excluding VRT. But then that would make calculations pretty difficult, since they would have to comp an OMSP inclusive of VAT but excluding VRT... which is included in VAT calculation... ow my head! :eek::o

Totally against the ethic and principles of the EU !

Erm. No. If it was an import tax, then yes it would be. But since it's a registration tax, then no it's not :pac:

(we're really missing an :evil: smiley, so pacman it is )

Guy:Incognito

I thnk it's time for a vrt forum so every new members (and the old reliables) first vrt rant can be kept to one side.

Lord Nikon

I'm fairly sure most of us in here know the ins & outs of VRT better than the Ministers who think up these stupids taxes in the first place. Yes it has been ranted on since forever, doesn't make it right though and it's not.

conor_mc

Looks like a simple bug to me.

The new calculator doesn't recognise that the OMSP on the "0%" section actually includes VRT at the current CC-based rate.

So they need to deduct that first, then re-add the new CO2-based VRT amount to get the OMSP.

Where the CC-based rate was higher than the expected CO2-based rate, the OMSP cannot be higher under the CO2 regime, as simple as that.

Bendihorse

No it cant be higher connor_mc, but they can dramatically reduce your saving. Better sit this one out and wait and see what they do...

conor_mc

How did you access that new calculator Bendihorse, I can't find a link to it on revenue's website. If I knew it was in production and not just a test site that we shouldn't really be seeing, I'd send off an email to them to explain the error.

Galway_guy_33

Looks like a bug to be honest... from my example it would appear that they get the customer OMSP = (Revenue OMSP + (Customer VRT x 2))


I cant find a link to the new C02 VRT calculator from the main revenue page so it would appear this is in development.

If this is true they shouldnt have this servlet accessible to the world.... Muppets!!!

Doesnt give you great faith if they cant get a basic calculation like this correct on a first draft!!! Its 4th class Math!!!


If anything in my case the new OMSP should be dropping as its c02 friendly.

seanpaul

sorry to be ranting again

seems Stekelly is happy to pay twice as much for his car in Ireland compared with so many other countries.

The real issue with VRT is how it creates a false closed market for car sales in Ireland, bascially simple neoclassical economics would show that prices would be fixed at an equillibrium market value based on supply v demand (basically if a car was €100,000 not many could afford it, so the price would have to fall to the price whereby there was enough demand to warrant production of sale of the car product).

In Ireland there is a closed market - bascially the Government by using VRT to generate very high revenues are protecting Irish car sellers from competition and this allows them to charge high monopolistic inflated prices. If there was no VRT, customers in Ireland would be free to shop around (the law of perfect information) and would see that e.g. a Ford Focus 2005 costs €12,000 in the UK rather than €18,000 in Ireland, so off they go to get the cheaper option. As a follow on Irish car sellers would have to drop prices to compete (perfect competition).

To respond to Stekelly and others above. I have lived in three different EU countries so can talk from experience somewhat. The EU was and is meant to be an open market (free movement of goods and people), so whether you call it registration tax or import tax, it is a barrier to the free movement of goods, and actually it breeches another convention of the EU on double taxation.

Governments such as the Irish Government have just used a loophole in EU Law to charge VRT. They have been warned by the EU and were directed to introduce a Co2 based system instead.

I think someone above said we on here know more about VRT than most ministers in Ireland that are responsible for introducing it, this is correct.

Lastly, as others have pointed out, if the Government were truly interested in a better environment for us all, they would be putting all of their attention into better public transport, and efforts to make us stop using our cars, I do not believe the new VRT system has that motivation - I am sure this will be hottly debated.

The new VRT system is simply the Irish Governments response to its EU warning and its new more sophisticated system for getting high amounts of tax from you out there.

After all its just a fee for registering your details on a car you import - it was meant to fee an admin fee - can you imagine a €10,000 admin fee!

There rant over!

-Chris-

seanpaul wrote: »

In Ireland there is a closed market - bascially the Government by using VRT to generate very high revenues are protecting Irish car sellers from competition and this allows them to charge high monopolistic inflated prices. If there was no VRT, customers in Ireland would be free to shop around (the law of perfect information) and would see that e.g. a Ford Focus 2005 costs €12,000 in the UK rather than €18,000 in Ireland, so off they go to get the cheaper option. As a follow on Irish car sellers would have to drop prices to compete (perfect competition).

This makes no sense to me.

If there was no such thing as VRT, the Focus would cost €12,000 here and in the UK. There would be fair competition.

If there is VRT on cars brought in through manufacturer channels AND there is VRT on cars imported privately, then the system is still fair and allows Irish car sellers (trade and private) to compete with the UK.

The reason the Focus costs €18,000 here rather than €12,000 is because of VRT, not because of the Irish car sellers.

By charging VRT on the OMSP of a car rather than the purchase price pre-tax, you ensure that an equal amount of tax is paid (or at least accounted for in the price), whether the car imported or purchased here.

It's revenue generation and protectionism, agreed. But I don't follow the rest of your arguement.

seanpaul

what do you find difficult to understand?

...because of VRT this allows Irish car dealers to charge higher prices, simply because if there was no VRT Irish car dealers would have their prices there in black and white for customers to see and customers could see exactly how much extra a car costs in Ireland compared with the UK or anywhere esle.

Because of two factors: hyper inflation in Ireland, and the VRT system the Government use to cream money out of us (and perhaps the Euro change over), Irish buyers just see higher prices and its not too easy to work out, 1. is it just the inflation rate, 2. the VRT rate included, or perhaps something esle.

What ever you say - Irish buyers are paying way way way more for cars that people in the UK - listen if you drive over the border from Cavan to Armagh, you get a massive drop in price, and its only a few miles.

The reason for this is the closed hyperinflated market caused by the VRT system and the way in which it inflates prices and protects Irish dealers from competition.

Seems fairly straightfroward to me!

seanpaul

AudiChris

regarding your comments "come on with the conspiracy theories lads"

I refer you to the other thread posted today regarding 'VRT Calculator'

as someone esle posted:

I'm only new so you'll have to fogive me if I'm repeating anything thats been said before.
In relation to the 2 different calculators I had a difference of over €1600 between the old and the new. The old being the better. I put in details for a 2001 318se and the vrt was €2900 roughly, and when I put the same details into the new one I was quoted over €4500. I rang the revenue and I actually spoke to a nice person, shock horror, and she told me to pay it before july if I wanted to save money. She said the one that is up now is only a test site and would be taken down shortly. I put the co2 in as 190 and maybe that was wrong but I'll definitely be paying up before july if its right

-Chris-

seanpaul wrote: »

what do you find difficult to understand?

...because of VRT this allows Irish car dealers to charge higher prices, simply because if there was no VRT Irish car dealers would have their prices there in black and white for customers to see and customers could see exactly how much extra a car costs in Ireland compared with the UK or anywhere esle.

If you're talking about new cars, VRT is charged by the government and is not a way for the dealer to make more money. Historically Ireland has had LOWER pre-tax prices than the rest of Europe.
If you're talking about used cars, dealers can't overcharge customers (this one'll get me flamed) as it's customers that set the price - the used car market is a very good example of the price equilibrium you were talking about earlier. Any dealer charging more than a customer will pay will sell no cars until the supply runs low enough that customers are forced to pay the higher prices to satisfy their demand

seanpaul wrote: »

Because of two factors: hyper inflation in Ireland, and the VRT system the Government use to cream money out of us (and perhaps the Euro change over),

There is no hyperinflation in Ireland.

The government "cream money out of us" with income tax, VAT, VRT etc. etc. They also provide massive amounts of employment and run our social welfare system. I think this is waaaay outside the realm of the OPs original point and probably more suited to the economics forum

seanpaul wrote: »

Irish buyers just see higher prices and its not too easy to work out, 1. is it just the inflation rate, 2. the VRT rate included, or perhaps something esle.

Anyone here will help you to work out the pre-VAT & VRT price of car. Just ask. Alternatively, call your local dealer, they'll also be able to guide you.

You can track the changes in new car pricing from the archives at simi.ie. Compare those to the inflation figures you can obtain from the CSO. Let me know how you get on... :rolleyes:

seanpaul wrote: »

What ever you say - Irish buyers are paying way way way more for cars that people in the UK - listen if you drive over the border from Cavan to Armagh, you get a massive drop in price, and its only a few miles.

Importing a car will save you some money and will increase your risk of getting stung in a situation where you have no support if something goes wrong. The internet is more expensive than the high-street, shall we tell HMV to stop over charging us? Buy where you find best value. If enough people do it, the equilibrium will shift and prices will change.

seanpaul wrote: »

The reason for this is the closed hyperinflated market caused by the VRT system and the way in which it inflates prices and protects Irish dealers from competition.

VRT is not causing hyperinflation. It's not even causing normal inflation (afaik, economists, feel free to correct me).

It's the gov'ts job to protect their citizens from external competition, without strangling exports - our lower rates of corporation tax and the resultant celtic tiger are also due to gov't taxation policy that doesn't agree with Europe...

seanpaul wrote: »

Seems fairly straightfroward to me!

[/Chris's participation in this thread]:D

-Chris-

seanpaul wrote: »

AudiChris

regarding your comments "come on with the conspiracy theories lads"

I refer you to the other thread posted today regarding 'VRT Calculator'

as someone esle posted:

I'm only new so you'll have to fogive me if I'm repeating anything thats been said before.
In relation to the 2 different calculators I had a difference of over €1600 between the old and the new. The old being the better. I put in details for a 2001 318se and the vrt was €2900 roughly, and when I put the same details into the new one I was quoted over €4500. I rang the revenue and I actually spoke to a nice person, shock horror, and she told me to pay it before july if I wanted to save money. She said the one that is up now is only a test site and would be taken down shortly. I put the co2 in as 190 and maybe that was wrong but I'll definitely be paying up before july if its right

Supporting my arguement that there's an error in the calculator, and reinforcing my suggestion that we should wait until the revenue provide a legitimate link to the calculator (rather than the current URL hack) before we're up in arms about being consciously ripped off.

Seriously, this is sooo OT and pointless - I'm out!

johnf2020

I tried the calculator on my Old Renault Fuego GTX which I was going to clear this week.
Old System----OMSP €800,,,tax rate 30%,,,VRT €315
Test System--omsp €2000,,tax rate 0%,,, vrt €280.

To wait or not,,that is the question?

B00MSTICK

We can all agree its broken right? No point worrying till closer to July. Lock thread 'til then?

johnf2020 wrote:

I tried the calculator on my Old Renault Fuego GTX which I was going to clear this week.
Old System----OMSP €800,,,tax rate 30%,,,VRT €315
Test System--omsp €2000,,tax rate 0%,,, vrt €280.

Chances are come July the OMSP will be very similar to the old price but you'll get charged the highest rate (36%) unless you have the Co2 data, which I doubt is easily available.

Mc-BigE

AudiChris wrote: »

Supporting my arguement that there's an error in the calculator, and reinforcing my suggestion that we should wait until the revenue provide a legitimate link to the calculator (rather than the current URL hack) before we're up in arms about being consciously ripped off.

Seriously, this is sooo OT and pointless - I'm out!

I agree that this is probably a work in progress, but its live on the website, not hacked, the only difference is that if you go directly to the ROS site and use there links it will link you to the correct one i.e the one with CC at the end of the web page. However, like me, if you have the vrt calculator bookmarked for a while, when you click on it, it shows you the co2 emissions one with the overpriced OSMP, i nearly sh*t myself when i saw the OSMP for a 2006 320d 49,000ish :eek:

(i started a thread this morning about this, i did check before for "VRT calculator" thread, didn't think it was under a very broad title of "VRT rip off" maybe the title should be changed)

Anyone who is planning to import a car from 1 july, i would advise to print off the current vrt calculation showing the correct OSMP of the car, then compare in 1st july