Trying to find a backbone.

Tragedy

Trying and failing.

I have an odd personal history that I think may have led me down this road which I wont go into, but the crux of the matter is this.

In general I'm a nice helpful guy who doesnt like arguments unless they're unavoidable, but I will stand up for myself, my opinion and my worth.

But the trouble is, when it comes to a girl I like.... I'm a ****ing sap.
I'll bend over backwards, let myself be treated badly, believe the silliest excuses and generally tick all the boxes in the "Is he nice or really just a pushover?" questionnaire.

I dont know how to be different, where to draw the line.
I tend to vacillate between doormat and angry guy who suddenly comes out and says "Thats it, I deserve to be treated better than this and enough is enough. Have a nice life".

I know there has to be a healthy middle ground even though I realise that in some situations its ok to be a doormat and ok to be the guy who walks away - I just dunno where or how to find it. It's unhealthy as I know even "normal" people when presented with a doormat can take advantage, and I'm worried that I really do sabotage potentially good relationships by being like this and basically asking to be used.

Urk, I've just re-read this and it doesnt feel quite right but I guess it's as good as it'll get.


*sigh*I'm going to regret this in the morning

AlexBM

Is it just girls you like, or does it apply to female friends too? You sound nervous...


Edit: Sorry, just reread it there. Are you scared of getting hurt? Emotionally burned in the past? If so, call 1800...sorry, that was my attempt at humour. I'll cringe when I reread that in the morning. Have you considered counselling of some sort?

Kelly O'Malley

It's not a spine you're lacking.It's self esteem.
Somewhere in your past it was programmed into you that you're not a nice person (untrue) and that if you don't bend over backwards to be Mr Ultra Nice you won't be accepted.
There must be courses on building self esteem.Find one and be an A student!
Sadly you're quite right, even seemingly nice people will take advantage of people like you and even when they're not really taking advantage it feels as if they are because you're so set in this doormat habit.
Are you uncomfortable when someone tries to bend over backwards for you?I'll bet you run a mile when that happens.It doesn't fit your picture of how the world works.
You're smart enough to know that it's you who needs fixing (not the a'holes who've been wiping their feet on you)so you're smart enough to be the A student!
Go for it friend!
Before you do though - my car needs washing.,the dog needs walking,the hoover is over there...:D

Marksie

Well having done all the training on behaviour types it *sounds* exactly like you fall in the obliging category in this regards.

Characterised by a willingness to do everything for the person. When it isn't returned in the same way you then get angry and upset and its a repeated pattern. Fair assessment?


So its possibly a behavioural thing which may be based on self esteem or other factors. those factors you will have to detremine yourself. But the behaviour you can work on.

Review whats happened in the past and where and why you acted like you did, both in the "doormat" phase and what triggered the "angry man" phase.

You are correct though..its all you and noone else that is doing this. Even down to the angry triggers...its is what you are thinking that is behind it. So if you can catch yourself faloing into the default option, then you can begin to change things

If necessary, look at CBT as an option.

milod

That was me 20 years ago! But don't worry, you'll learn with age...

The biggest issue with being a nice guy is that if you meet the wrong person, that person will take advantage of your good nature.

The old cliche "I created a monster" could be applied to a certain ex of mine. I accept that had I been less facilitating and selfless, the relationship would have been much different - but then lazy-arse selfish types have a knack for finding someone that will clean up after them...

The only advice I can give you OP is to be a little more selfish. Decide what's important to you in your life and make time for whatever that is. Don't devote 100% of yourself or your time to any other person - always keep some for yourself.

RedXIV

milod wrote: »

That was me 20 years ago! But don't worry, you'll learn with age...

The biggest issue with being a nice guy is that if you meet the wrong person, that person will take advantage of your good nature.

The old cliche "I created a monster" could be applied to a certain ex of mine. I accept that had I been less facilitating and selfless, the relationship would have been much different - but then lazy-arse selfish types have a knack for finding someone that will clean up after them...

The only advice I can give you OP is to be a little more selfish. Decide what's important to you in your life and make time for whatever that is. Don't devote 100% of yourself or your time to any other person - always keep some for yourself.

Thats pretty much what i was gonna say cept it was me 4 years ago I actually started repeating "nice guys finish last" as a mantra. In hindsight, I had no reason to be so selfless. I'd get asked to go to the movies, we'd both say we didn't mind what we saw but in the back of my head i was DYING to X film. But wouldn't say anything in case it wasn't what she wanted. You learn to get over it eventually. just remember...NICE GUYS FINISH LAST

Overheal

milod wrote: »

That was me 20 years ago! But don't worry, you'll learn with age...

The biggest issue with being a nice guy is that if you meet the wrong person, that person will take advantage of your good nature.

The old cliche "I created a monster" could be applied to a certain ex of mine. I accept that had I been less facilitating and selfless, the relationship would have been much different - but then lazy-arse selfish types have a knack for finding someone that will clean up after them...

The only advice I can give you OP is to be a little more selfish. Decide what's important to you in your life and make time for whatever that is. Don't devote 100% of yourself or your time to any other person - always keep some for yourself.

So unbearably true: if you try and be the nice guy that wants to do an X and Y for her than youre going to end up with someone that will try and get you doing X Y Z and W for good measure.

Kelly O'Malley

Hey not true!Nice guys do NOT finish last!
DOORMATS get trodden on for sure - that's their function - but who'd go to bed with one?
Nice guys end up with nice wives,nice kids and a nice life.
Old doormats end up in the bin.
There's nothing attractive about doormats.
Nice guys can accept nice things being done for them.
Doormats can't,they feel as if they don't deserve it.
Nasty guys end up married to doormat women.Ugg.Nasty.
Doormat guys end up with nasty women.Ugg.Very nasty.

RedXIV

Kelly O'Malley wrote: »

Hey not true!Nice guys do NOT finish last!
DOORMATS get trodden on for sure - that's their function - but who'd go to bed with one?
Nice guys end up with nice wives,nice kids and a nice life.
Old doormats end up in the bin.
There's nothing attractive about doormats.
Nice guys can accept nice things being done for them.
Doormats can't,they feel as if they don't deserve it.
Nasty guys end up married to doormat women.Ugg.Nasty.
Doormat guys end up with nasty women.Ugg.Very nasty.

Very fine line between doormats and nice guys, and alot of doormats would say they are nice guys. and fair enough, they probably are, but if you want to be happy in a relationship, you need to put your own say in, this is where nice guys usually mess up, they just want to keep the other person happy. Now i'm not saying if you're a nice guy, you're screwed. I'd like to think i'm a nice guy deep down but thats probably not how i come across

TomMc

OP, there is a saying "he who is willing is asked to do more".

Also if you like a girl the best route to winning her is to humour, tease and challenge her. This builds attraction and mutual respect. You can still be the good guy (or at least naughty but nice), but with backbone and respect for both her and yourself and most importantly as equals. If you bend backwards and are very obliging doing everything for her, without her needing to work for your affection, then you end up in the friend zone. You are effectively putting her on a pedestal and this is not attractive. People are only romantically interested in others they percieve as their equals or somewhat above, not someone fawning over them liked crazied teeniboppers around rock stars. This is what it is like to a greater degree.

While you might have a very obliging nature (which is highly commendable), and it is proper etiquette to show all persons a certain level of respect from the outset in your dealings with them, but after that you only reward them pro quo + 10%, when this kindness is returned or acknowledged. Otherwise they then take advantage and you lose their respect.

dory

Marksie wrote: »

If necessary, look at CBT as an option.

What's that?

This is sounding scarily like my life.....

TomMc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

JuliusCaesar

Try also books on assertiveness. Assertiveness is the half-way between doormat and aggression. But you have to put it into practice!

eg When I Say No I Feel Guilty.

Macha

Maybe you just need to find a way to argue or make your opinion known to a girl in a way that you're comfortable with. So if a girl asks that you do X, when you want to do Y, practise saying something like: "Well we could do X but what do you think about Y?" or: "I have a suggestion..."

Just an idea.

Also, you need to feel comfortable enough with the girl to have an argument/discussion with her. This could be related to low self-esteem. I remember I couldn't say boo to my first boyfriend because I was so worried about what he thought of me & was afraid he would leave me. It's best to feel like two equals going into a relationship, not that the other person is in some way better than you.