Badgers

Kelly O'Malley

I've noticed in the last few months what seems to be an unusually high number of RTA badgers on the roads.
Does anyone know has there been a population increase of them lately?
It's either that or they didn't get their copies of the road safety manual this year..sorry bad taste joke.:o

boneless

Unfortuneatly the only badgers I see these days are the ones which have had high speed encounters with cars. I don't know if there has been a population increase though. Is the culling still ongoing at the moment? I have to say, that sickens me.

I do know that one of the County Councils, maybe Dun Laoighaire Rathdown, conducted a badger "census" last year. Maybe if you contacted them they could tell if the numbers are up on previous counts?

Sorry I couldn't be of more help...

Kess73

A lot of the road deaths are due to changes being made by man in the badgers habitats, forcing the badgers to take different routes, often onto roads. Badgers generally have a pattern to their feeding aresa, so if a road is built across where they normally went, they will normally still try to use that route to get to their feeding grounds.



To answer the culling question, yes that disgusting thing still goes on in this country as does badger baiting, the law will tut tut and say it is wrong but rarely does anything about it.

I came across it being done on land I owned before, and one of the guys involved left my land limping heavily after I made my feelings very clear on it.

This country has a very poor attitude to wildlife in general, and wildlife only seems to get any form of protection when there is potential votes involved.

It wasn't me!

The culling is conducted by the department of the environment as far as I know, probably not in your best interests to assault an agent thereof.

gerky

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The culling is conducted by the department of the environment as far as I know, probably not in your best interests to assault an agent thereof.

Maybe reread Kess73's post, I took it to mean he found someone illegally badger baiting on his land in which case their lucky they only left with a limp.

CtrlSource

I got very close to a badger (first time i'd ever seen one in the wild) in Milltown, Dublin one evening recently. Curious little fella he was too - or maybe it was just his poor eyesight!

I like badgers, I do

Overdraft

Kess73 wrote: »

I came across it being done on land I owned before, and one of the guys involved left my land limping heavily after I made my feelings very clear on it.

You're my hero Kess, although I'd have been happier if you shot the b*****d dead. Not the badger, the baiter.

Kess73

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The culling is conducted by the department of the environment as far as I know, probably not in your best interests to assault an agent thereof.

Who mentioned assault, I just commented on how the guy was limping afterwards.


And I do not know many people working for the department of the enviroment who sneak onto people's land at night with lamps, clubs and dogs and who start digging around the entrance of the sett and try to send the small dogs down into the sett.


Badger baiters are scum, and if one should develop a limp after trying to kill a beautiful animal, then I won't lose any sleep over it.

I take it you have never seen the aftermath of a nights badger baiting, or have never come out and found it and had to clean up what was left. It is not a pretty sight, and some of the guys doing it have serious mental issues as the badgers get a very slow and painful death. People get all up in arms over seal clubbing, but when it, and worse, happens to badgers nobody really bats an eyelid.

You report these people to the authorities and you get looked at like you have two heads by the Gardai, and waiting for an official from a relevent enviromental agencies is like waiting for the second coming.

amerden

Kelly O'Malley wrote: »

I've noticed in the last few months what seems to be an unusually high number of RTA badgers on the roads.
Does anyone know has there been a population increase of them lately?
It's either that or they didn't get their copies of the road safety manual this year..sorry bad taste joke.:o

Does anyone here know of anyone who was in a collision with a badger ??? a badger would do a lot of damage to a vehicle if hit, there is a view that the majority of badgers seen at the side of the road are not killed there, they are killed illegally and left at the side of the road.

Kelly O'Malley

amerden wrote: »

Does anyone here know of anyone who was in a collision with a badger ??? a badger would do a lot of damage to a vehicle if hit, there is a view that the majority of badgers seen at the side of the road are not killed there, they are killed illegally and left at the side of the road.

You could have a point there.On occassion I've stopped to make sure the poor creature was dead as there was little sign of damage but on closer inspection there was head trauma but that was all.

Kess73

I would not agree that most badgers found dead at the side of the road are not hit by cars.

Think about the amount of cats and dogs that get hit by cars and thrown to the side by the impact, they are more often that not intact with massive internal injuries, the only time you see an animal flattened on the road is after many vehicles have ran over the already dead animal.

Most people swerve to try and avoid an animal and the killing blow is a glancing one, and a glancing blow is more that enough when dealt by a one ton plus vehicle moving at anything from 60km/h upwards.

A badger killed by badger baiters looks different to one hit by a car in my experience.

It wasn't me!

My apologies. Badger baiters deserve no sympathy and should receive a good limp for their troubles if found trespassing. Employees of the government, snaring and shooting badgers, are not scum, they're doing a job and should not be afflicted with such unfortunate limps.

amerden

Kess73 wrote: »

A badger killed by badger baiters looks different to one hit by a car in my experience.

I agree that a badger killed by baiters would look somewhat different, but what about farmers culling badgers because of the fear of TB in their cattle herd, I also agree that some badgers are the victims of vehicles, but my original question was "Does anyone here know of anyone who was in a collision with a badger" if a vehicle hit a badger it would cause considerable damage to that vehicle, badgers are not small nor are they light

Kess73

amerden wrote: »

I agree that a badger killed by baiters would look somewhat different, but what about farmers culling badgers because of the fear of TB in their cattle herd, I also agree that some badgers are the victims of vehicles, but my original question was "Does anyone here know of anyone who was in a collision with a badger" if a vehicle hit a badger it would cause considerable damage to that vehicle, badgers are not small nor are they light

Yes I know of vehicles that have been in collisions with badgers, and the amount of damage to the vehicle varied from model to model.

Like I said earlier a badger is rarely hit head on by a vehicle as most people try to swerve and avoid the badger, so the blow is a glancing one, normally with a tyre, so damage to the vehicle is normally minimal, on some occassions there is heavy damage to a car, but the fact the badger is low to the ground, unlike most dogs for example, the damage to the vehicle is ofte less than that caused by a vehicle that has struck a dog.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

amerden wrote: »

Does anyone here know of anyone who was in a collision with a badger ??? a badger would do a lot of damage to a vehicle if hit, there is a view that the majority of badgers seen at the side of the road are not killed there, they are killed illegally and left at the side of the road.

Sorry but that's bull! My work in wildlife brings me to record and examine any dead badgers I come across. Those on the side of the road have all shown signs of being struck by traffic. Why kill one "illegally" and then dispose of the body at the roadside. Damage to Badger and Car/Vehicle varies gratly depending on the type of impact. I have seen several cars with hardly a scratch after running over a badger. The badger often gets killed by a glancing blow or by being carried under the vehicle.
You can safely take it that any Badger seen dead by the raodside was killed by a vehicle!!

barryfitz

I hit a badger one night. I had just come over a crest and he was the far side of it. There was nothing I could do. There was a bus a 10 or so metres behind me so it wasnt safe to jam on the brakes of the car, i travelled on down to the nearest gateway and pulled in, turned and went back to where I hit him. there was no sign of him though when I got back, maybe he made it to the ditch but I couldnt see him. there was absolutely no damage to the car, I think that was because I kind of landed on him after coming over the crest (not that I was airborne) but just meant he got the bottom of the car. I doubt he survived.

stevoman

I think your all getting a little paranoid here. the reason why a lot of badgers are being killed on the road is the fact that they are breeding and feeding this time of year and need to cross roads and motorways to move from location to location.

It is in fact the Deapartment of Agriculture that is culling the badgers at the moment and this is under extremly strict guidlines. The dept of Agriculture will on set snares in badger sets which are located close to farm holdings that keep cattle. The reason for this is that badgers carry bovine TB which is extremly infectious and this desease can cause a farmer to have his whole herd depopulated and can potentially ruin a dairy farmers business.

Under the REPS schemes which is run by the Dept of agriculture it is heavily illegal to touch or tamper with a badger set outside of these conditions of proximity to cattle and the scheme helps to regenerate numbers in areas that are not being cattle farmed. Also it is heavily illegal for any member outside of said department to tamper with the sets.

As regards baiting i beleive it probobly does go on, but no to the extecnt as it used to, in fact i think it rarely goes on. It is still legal to dig out foxes using terriers and this is the same practice for the badger and its known as "baiting". With the current legislation protecting the badgers id say 98% of the folks who do dig out foxes will dare not touch a badger set as it will in turn ruin their chances at still being able to dig out foxes and in fairness hunters nowadays are very responsible. Why would they want to jeporadise their sport after all the work they put into training their terreirs? To a hunter it would be the same as a race car driver drink driving home and risking losing his driving license. Dont forget these people are careful and put countless hours into training their dogs and will not want to jeporadise their liberitys.

As regards some of the comments about baiters taking the badgers and leaving them by the side of the road is proposterous. It makes no sense. Ifit is illegal to bait them, why walk hundres of miles across the fields with the dead badger and risk being spoted just to leave it on the side of the road? Also the terreirs would have cut the carcass to shreds already.

Kess73

stevoman wrote: »

I think your all getting a little paranoid here. the reason why a lot of badgers are being killed on the road is the fact that they are breeding and feeding this time of year and need to cross roads and motorways to move from location to location.

It is in fact the Deapartment of Agriculture that is culling the badgers at the moment and this is under extremly strict guidlines. The dept of Agriculture will on set snares in badger sets which are located close to farm holdings that keep cattle. The reason for this is that badgers carry bovine TB which is extremly infectious and this desease can cause a farmer to have his whole herd depopulated and can potentially ruin a dairy farmers business.


Under the REPS schemes which is run by the Dept of agriculture it is heavily illegal to touch or tamper with a badger set outside of these conditions of proximity to cattle and the scheme helps to regenerate numbers in areas that are not being cattle farmed. Also it is heavily illegal for any member outside of said department to tamper with the sets.

As regards baiting i beleive it probobly does go on, but no to the extecnt as it used to, in fact i think it rarely goes on. It is still legal to dig out foxes using terriers and this is the same practice for the badger and its known as "baiting". With the current legislation protecting the badgers id say 98% of the folks who do dig out foxes will dare not touch a badger set as it will in turn ruin their chances at still being able to dig out foxes and in fairness hunters nowadays are very responsible. Why would they want to jeporadise their sport after all the work they put into training their terreirs? To a hunter it would be the same as a race car driver drink driving home and risking losing his driving license. Dont forget these people are careful and put countless hours into training their dogs and will not want to jeporadise their liberitys.

As regards some of the comments about baiters taking the badgers and leaving them by the side of the road is proposterous. It makes no sense. Ifit is illegal to bait them, why walk hundres of miles across the fields with the dead badger and risk being spoted just to leave it on the side of the road? Also the terreirs would have cut the carcass to shreds already.

It is a shame that Ireland has learned nothing from the now proven facts and figures from other countries with regards badgers and bovine TB. It is proven that badgers cause less that 20% of cases where TB is passed onto "clean" cattle. 80% of all recorded bovine tb case have been cattle to cattle cases. Also in areas where mass culling of badgers has been done, there have not been the expected reductions in new cases of bovine tb, in some areas there are small reductions, but culling badgers is not the way to reduce the amount of bovine tb cases in a large manner. Another damning fact for the culls is that almost 85% of all badgers culled were found not to have TB when their bodies were tested, meaning it is mostly unifected badgers that get killed over and over.

In the UK, Badger culling was abandoned after a decade of research showed that the culling badgers had the opposite effect on the amount of TB cases, and the same reports over a twenty year period in this country have shown that the culling is having little or no effect on the amount of cattle getting bovine TB, with Ireland having almost double the amount of Bovine TB case as England during that period. I would agree that the 20% of cases that can be proven to be caused by badgers is a significant number, but it is also starting to look obvious that simply culling them is not having the effect wanted. Maybe it is time that the farmers and associated bodies looked at other practises that could be improved upon, be it from a transport, storage or hygienic level, rather than try to blame a badger for it all.


Below are a few links to articles over the last two years about it, and the last link has a link within it to the offical report that was published of the ten years worth of research on the subject.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/06/16/eabadg16.xml


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-10/uoc--bcg100206.php


http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/tb/abouttb/badgers.htm


You think badger baiting rarely goes on nowadays in this country? And you make a point about hunters being very responsible. I take it you have not met many of the type of people that badger bait and the type that think it is a sport. It is not the gun carrying hunters that are badger baiting in Ireland, and the badger is not dispatched with a clean gunshot or the like. Badger baiting seems to be mainly done by those from what would be seen as "rougher" area and by some from a more rural setting. I have come across the remains of badger (and foxes) who were hung by the neck to die, who were battered and left to die, and have come across many dead foxes who had their brush cut off as a trophy, no doubt to be placed proudly in some home.

In Munster badger baiting is outgoing on a regular basis, by people who go out at night and hope to kill a badger or two, but if they get a fox or some other poor animal, then that will meet the same fate.

stevoman

Kess73 wrote: »

It is a shame that Ireland has learned nothing from the now proven facts and figures from other countries with regards badgers and bovine TB. It is proven that badgers cause less that 20% of cases where TB is passed onto "clean" cattle. 80% of all recorded bovine tb case have been cattle to cattle cases. Also in areas where mass culling of badgers has been done, there have not been the expected reductions in new cases of bovine tb, in some areas there are small reductions, but culling badgers is not the way to reduce the amount of bovine tb cases in a large manner. Another damning fact for the culls is that almost 85% of all badgers culled were found not to have TB when their bodies were tested, meaning it is mostly unifected badgers that get killed over and over.

In the UK, Badger culling was abandoned after a decade of research showed that the culling badgers had the opposite effect on the amount of TB cases, and the same reports over a twenty year period in this country have shown that the culling is having little or no effect on the amount of cattle getting bovine TB, with Ireland having almost double the amount of Bovine TB case as England during that period. I would agree that the 20% of cases that can be proven to be caused by badgers is a significant number, but it is also starting to look obvious that simply culling them is not having the effect wanted. Maybe it is time that the farmers and associated bodies looked at other practises that could be improved upon, be it from a transport, storage or hygienic level, rather than try to blame a badger for it all.


Below are a few links to articles over the last two years about it, and the last link has a link within it to the offical report that was published of the ten years worth of research on the subject.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/06/16/eabadg16.xml


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-10/uoc--bcg100206.php


http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/tb/abouttb/badgers.htm


You think badger baiting rarely goes on nowadays in this country? And you make a point about hunters being very responsible. I take it you have not met many of the type of people that badger bait and the type that think it is a sport. It is not the gun carrying hunters that are badger baiting in Ireland, and the badger is not dispatched with a clean gunshot or the like. Badger baiting seems to be mainly done by those from what would be seen as "rougher" area and by some from a more rural setting. I have come across the remains of badger (and foxes) who were hung by the neck to die, who were battered and left to die, and have come across many dead foxes who had their brush cut off as a trophy, no doubt to be placed proudly in some home.

In Munster badger baiting is outgoing on a regular basis, by people who go out at night and hope to kill a badger or two, but if they get a fox or some other poor animal, then that will meet the same fate.

Point taken but about the dept of agriculture but as a employee of a body closely linked to the cull i see first hand this it is dealt with in a strict and respective manner. The issues concerning the legislation lays with the minster and her advisors from the country and from the EU.

As regards the hunting aspect, i am a hunter but do not choose a fox as my quarry and i do not dig them out although i do know many people involved in digging and from my experience i have to say that none of them would even dream of touching a badger set. I am not here to defend digging of any animals by any means but i do have understanding and i am aware that this is the way things are.

It wasn't me!

Also a point to note is that brushes aren't taken from foxes for trophies but as proof of return in vermin counts. I think it's for the NARGC. In the case of avian vermin, either heads or wings are submitted I think, so just to clarify that's not the work of trophy hunters.

stevoman

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Also a point to note is that brushes aren't taken from foxes for trophies but as proof of return in vermin counts. I think it's for the NARGC. In the case of avian vermin, either heads or wings are submitted I think, so just to clarify that's not the work of trophy hunters.

Well noticed i forgot about that one. Yes they do that for the NARGC's Vermin count.

Kess73

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Also a point to note is that brushes aren't taken from foxes for trophies but as proof of return in vermin counts. I think it's for the NARGC. In the case of avian vermin, either heads or wings are submitted I think, so just to clarify that's not the work of trophy hunters.

Well brushes being hung in county pubs and on some farms would say that they are not all taken for vermin counts.

Kess73

stevoman wrote: »

Point taken but about the dept of agriculture but as a employee of a body closely linked to the cull i see first hand this it is dealt with in a strict and respective manner. The issues concerning the legislation lays with the minster and her advisors from the country and from the EU.

As regards the hunting aspect, i am a hunter but do not choose a fox as my quarry and i do not dig them out although i do know many people involved in digging and from my experience i have to say that none of them would even dream of touching a badger set. I am not here to defend digging of any animals by any means but i do have understanding and i am aware that this is the way things are.

My beef is not with the guys involved in the cull at your level, I strongly disagree with the culls but I have see you guys at work first hand, and from what I have observed, it is as quick and humane a kill as possible under the conditions. I just think that it needs to be reconsidered at a much higher level.



As for your point about hunters, I think I was clear enough in my earlier post that the people I am talking about are not hunters in the sense that you are on about. The "gentlemen" I came across that night had as their hunting weapons, a baseball bat and a hand axe, which I am sure we can both agree are not standard things to carry hunting. I am also sure you can imagine the fate of the poor badger had these men managed to flush it out.

stevoman

Kess73 wrote: »

As for your point about hunters, I think I was clear enough in my earlier post that the people I am talking about are not hunters in the sense that you are on about. The "gentlemen" I came across that night had as their hunting weapons, a baseball bat and a hand axe, which I am sure we can both agree are not standard things to carry hunting. I am also sure you can imagine the fate of the poor badger had these men managed to flush it out.

well those men do not deserve to be put anyways near the same catagory as a hunter. scumbags comes to mind though!

BryanL

It is a shame that Ireland has learned nothing from the now proven facts and figures from other countries with regards badgers and bovine TB. It is proven that badgers cause less that 20% of cases where TB is passed onto "clean" cattle. 80% of all recorded bovine tb case have been cattle to cattle cases


that is untrue,Ireland is leading the way in proving the facts as they have come from the ,four areas study, this is the most quoted study with regards to bovine T.B. managment.you will be aware that Wales has just initiated it's own Badger cull on the back of the Irish evidence and success.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7335855.stm



England has not at this time decided to cull badgers,not because they questioned the effect it would have but only the cost involved.

another thing to be aware of is that 20% of Badgers suffering from T.B. is not a situation that should be tolerated either, from a Badger welfare point of view. I think it's an admirable aim

gerky

BryanL I'm not even gonna try and change your mind but I've read several reports/studies and while one or two show a minor fall in cattle TB cases, the majority show that a cull has no impact and in some cases does more harm than good.
But going back to what was said about snared badgers being dumped on the roadside, while I don't think its common I don't think it can be said it never happens as I've read of a few cases in other countries.
Heres a recent one

whitser

regardless of the tb arguement badgers can reach pest levels on farms. i know one farmer who had a ditch collapse fence included because of badgers digging holes along it. they have no natural enemys so its necessary for the dept of agri to help the farmers control their numbers on their land. other wise they reach pest numbers. and a large population of any wild animal in a certain area can lead to disease, unhealthy competiton for food etc...

BryanL

Gerky,
why not? i'm happy to read any study.Do you not agree thought that something should be done to reduce the level of T.B. in Badgers,if only for the badgers sake?
Obviously a vacinne program would be the ideal,but there is no succesful model for that approach,as yet.
Bryan

Mothman

BryanL wrote: »

Do you not agree thought that something should be done to reduce the level of T.B. in Badgers,if only for the badgers sake?

That's simple, get rid of the cattle

I feel the badger is somewhat of a scape goat regarding the control of TB. I've heard no mention of controlling deer, also carriers of TB. They're widespread in parts of Wicklow, including east of N11.

I have badgers sett on my land.
I had a request from Dept of Agriculture to come on my land and "test" some of the badgers. Seems fair enough, but I questioned how do they go about that..........so I was informed that they kill and take away....so I questioned how many...ah not many......

I got the distinct feeling they would have exterminated the sett there and then. I refused access, and then the gulit trip was laid on me.....your neighbours will not be happy..... so and so has been locked up (meaning herd locked because of positive TB test).........

I also feel that while the department may officially cull, in my area it is locals they bring in to due the job "under supervision"

Probably needless to say, I don't trust that everything happens as it should with regarding selective cull, sampling, whatever you call it.

It wasn't me!

Mothman wrote: »

That's simple, get rid of the cattle

I feel the badger is somewhat of a scape goat regarding the control of TB. I've heard no mention of controlling deer, also carriers of TB. They're widespread in parts of Wicklow, including east of N11.

I have badgers sett on my land.
I had a request from Dept of Agriculture to come on my land and "test" some of the badgers. Seems fair enough, but I questioned how do they go about that..........so I was informed that they kill and take away....so I questioned how many...ah not many......

I got the distinct feeling they would have exterminated the sett there and then. I refused access, and then the gulit trip was laid on me.....your neighbours will not be happy..... so and so has been locked up (meaning herd locked because of positive TB test).........

I also feel that while the department may officially cull, in my area it is locals they bring in to due the job "under supervision"

Probably needless to say, I don't trust that everything happens as it should with regarding selective cull, sampling, whatever you call it.

Badgers can't legally be shot by hunters, while deer can, so the Department has to have a scheme in place to control badger numbers, while hunters help control deer numbers, though more culling needs to be done to maintain healthy herds than is currently being done.

gerky

BryanL wrote: »

Gerky,
why not? i'm happy to read any study.Do you not agree thought that something should be done to reduce the level of T.B. in Badgers,if only for the badgers sake?
Obviously a vacinne program would be the ideal,but there is no succesful model for that approach,as yet.
Bryan

Why not?
1 Honestly because I think I'd be wasting my time, a quick look through your post history shows we approach wildlife in very different ways also you seem to pretty much just berate anyone that doesn't agree with you.
2 I'm not your parent nor your teacher, its not up to me to educate you, its your own responsibility to research the area and not just the version that suits your purpose.
3 Three of the papers I referred to are in science journals that you have to be a paid up member of to access.
But heres some reading for you if you want.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
Link 5
PDF Link 6

Apologies if any of these are double links, And please don't don't respond to this with a load of questions and what not as I don't have the time and I'm not in the mood of this turning in to a whole for and against argument.
We have different views on this and lots of things lets just leave it at that.

BryanL

Gerky,
"you seem to pretty much just berate anyone that doesn't agree with you."

if you can show me any example of me berating anyone on boards anywhere i will apologies to you and them,but i think i'll be waiting.

If you give me any scientific links i will be able to access the study abstracts, so please do.

My attitude to most things is based on sound science, you say we differ in our attitude,that seems sensible to me.
Everything you posted are british news paper stories and one british report,but no scientific studies.

The basic findings in all your links is that, "piecemeal" culling is not effective.I wouldn't dispute that.
But if you are aware of any work on Irish badgers you will know that the live in much smaller social groups than britain,have a very different diet from british badgers.So british findings have little application in Ireland.


since your busy, just the one question, whats your solution to controling TB in Badgers,as a Badger welfare issue.
Bryan

gerky

To berate : To condemn vehemently

what are you so worried about Gerky? a closed mind like yours must be easily filled.do you think a fisherman knows nothing of fish?do you think they have nothing to teach.
Muineach in answer to your questions above,
foxes are fairly hard pressed for food this time of year the populations are at their highest so there is alot of competition for whats available.the majority of what foxes are eating at the minute will be black berries,their scats are almost pure purple and filled with seeds.
with the bulbs,earthworms make up alot of their diet also and when they dig down and find bulbs they have to move them because they can no longer smell worms when a bulb has been disturbed.
sitting on a roof lets them soak up the last of the days heat,keeps their scent off the ground and keeps them safe from dogs etc.
Bryan

i believe mother nature knows how to look after herself and doesn't need humans to interfere in her own business. live and let live so to speak


come on? where do yo go with that statement,just leave the whole countryside to itself? whats the purpose of the REPS scheme? leave ragworth as it is?
i follow beagles and harriers on foot, could i go drag hunting. stags are reduced to complete exhuastion by the rut, every year.stress and distress are not easily distinguished.

i have read the dept. of agriculture reports. there is only one,it was based on no science but on the observations of one vet.interesting but very far from conclusive and certainly not enough to base policy on.

<snip>
Bryan

BB12,
you sound a funny one, you'd love to go hunting again but only if it's drag hunting. but you don't allow any hunting on your own farm, because of muck and attitudes, why would it be different for drag hunting?
you seemed to enjoy harrier hunting but are against hunting, do you know that harrier hunting is the main hunting in Ireland?
of the wards you said "...the animal is visibly distressed...i've seen them panting from the mouth, with blood pouring out of it where they've probably burst a few blood vessels from the strenous galloping away from the hounds..."
have you ever been to a horse race? or eventing? even a timed show jumping event will have panting horses and bursting a blood vessel in the nose is common even in humans.
you seem to confuse stress and distress as it suits.
why control foxes? what about ground nesting birds? partridge,hares?
can you show any study that shows there is no benifit to controling predators?
how about foxes themselves? well look up steven harris's work from bristol(he's anti hunting so not biased) but he showed that where fox numbers were not controled they sufferd mortality>90% when exposed to mange but in controlled(hunted groups) this dropped to 13%?
Bryan

Torn apart? urban bloody myths. i've never seen or heard of these dogs pulled apart. These people makes their living from the whole "animal creulty circus"
i wonder how many family dogs are picked up by do gooders that are a few hundred yards from their homes and then sold on or re-homed by these people.I had a dog go missing from it's kennel(most likely stolen) but when i tried the various amateur "dogs homes" there was no way of tracing what they had where it was etc. etc.
on a side note i asked a friend if his new girlfriend was an animal lover, he paused and was serious when he said "she's fairly frisky alright"
Bryan

You just can't seem to except that others might have views other then yours and that just because you think your right it doesn't mean everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.
I have been reading maybe 8-12 different journals for several years and and you want me to go and find three studies I've read out of 1000+ as I said before I'm not your teacher here to spoon feed you.
The studies could be in any of these publications or several others, you can do your own searching.
http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/journal.asp?ref=0021-8901&site=1
http://www.nature.com/
http://www.sciencemag.org/
http://www.the-scientist.com/
http://highwire.stanford.edu/
http://www.pnas.org/
http://www.britishecologicalsociety.org/

I'm not qualified to say what should and shouldn't be done as regards it.
Thats it now, just leave it and except that we've very different views on this.

BryanL

To berate : To condemn vehemently

well i certainly haven't done that then, disagreed with people yes.:D

well Gerky i'm not surprised you can't find studies to back up what you've said.Alll those journals have a search feature to quickly find any relevant study as you know.
It's normal on messgeboards to find differences of opinion, it leads to healthy open discussion.
But yet you won't offer any opinion on how to improve T.B. rates in Badgers?
Bryan

gerky

For starers you've been here a year and a half you could at least learn to quote.
Not that I think your lying or anything:pac: but did you even bother searching, Because within two minute I found two of the items I referred to and also found several others.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
Link 5
Link 6

The last two articles are fairly plain spoken so you shouldn't have to much trouble with them.
But this is all an exercise in futility as even If I got some of the most qualified people in the country to talk to you about it and you still wouldn't except it.
You say studies from other countries can't be compared to Ireland yet you say the welsh are using Irish studies and you're fine with that, you won't except British articles yet you produced one to back up your own post in this very thread.
Even when your proven wrong about simple things like berating people you still can't except it, none of us are ever right all the time and we have to except that.
You keep asking me what should be done but as I've told you already I'm not qualified, of course I have my opinion's and one of them is that disturbing their own natural boundaries will do nothing but spread it, and I don't think humans and money should always be put above everything else.
But as I said these are my opinions.

Now I really think I've been patient enough with you and put up with enough of your rubbish bordering on trolling.

BryanL

Gerky thanks for the reply,
your first link is a link to the ,Four Areas Study, that i mentioned in my first post. It shows and i'll quote from your link "60-96% reduction" in cattle herd infection with pro-active Badger removal as opposed to reactive ( or piecemeal)cullling.
all your other links show that "piecemeal culling" reduces TB rates within the area controlled but increases it in any uncontrolled areas.

the most qualified people in the country to talk to you about it and you still wouldn't except it.

Gerky the most qualified people in the country don't agree on how to best improve TB in cattle and Badgers,it's called scientific discussion,most people are open to it and welcome it.
Bryan

gerky

Keep on trolling Bryan keep on trolling, its at the point now that I'm actually getting a good laugh at your attempts at a reply.