[Article] Mind the gap: commuters face walk at 'integrated' rail station

Victor

"OK, my cheque isn't intetgrated with your account, but its around the corner, along the canal, over the bridge and up the street."

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/12707183?view=Eircomnet&cat=National

Mind the gap: commuters face walk at 'integrated' rail station
From The Irish IndependentSaturday, 26th April, 2008

THE extension of Luas to the Point Depot in Dublin will link up with the city's newest train station, as long as commuters don't mind a 350-metre walk.

The Department of Transport insisted yesterday that the docklands Luas was integrated with the docklands station, but admitted a short walk would be required to move from one public transport system to the other.

The bizarre possibility of an "integrated" public transport system requiring the use of an umbrella to make a connecting journey was raised yesterday, with Fine Gael accusing the Government of making a "huge mistake" and failing to learn the lessons of the past.

Enterprise, Trade and Employment spokesman Leo Varadkar said the decision not to have Luas stopping at the docklands station was "madness", and urged the Government to re-consider the route.

"Commuters are still scratching their heads about the Government's decision not to link the red and green Luas lines, this mistake is now being rectified at the cost of millions of euros," he said.

"Fianna Fail is about to make the same mistake in the docklands. The new Luas docklands extension will not link up with the existing Iarnrod Eireann docklands train station. Once again, Fianna Fail is showing that it cannot learn from its mistakes.

"Minister Noel Dempsey must urgently review this crazy decision. Dublin commuters already have to face traffic gridlock, the M50 car park, the insanity of the Mad Cow, an inadequate bus network and the prospect of a congestion charge. To build a Luas almost half-a-kilometre from an existing train station is a further insult."

Last week, Mr Dempsey said, in reply to a parliamentary question, that the Luas extension to the Point Depot would include a stop at Spencer Dock.

A spokeswoman for Mr Dempsey said the Luas and docklands rail would be integrated. The Railway Procurement Agency, responsible for delivering the Luas extension, added the Luas would stop "very close" to the docklands.

loyatemu

there's access to Docklands station from Spencer dock underneath Sherriff St - I reckon the walk would be no longer than the walk from Connolly Dart to Connolly Luas. They should probably include a covered walkway though.

paulm17781

Were these not unconnected as the interconnector stop was going to be directly underneath the Luas one?

Ham'nd'egger

This is a very good example of why Leo Varadkar is not a good transport spokesman; he has absolutely no idea of what he is on about here.

350 metres is about the same distance that one has from the end of a platform in Connolly or Heuston to their respective Luas stops, or even Platforms 5, 6 and 7. The only difference here is that the walk is to a adjacent site of the same distance. Given that Docklands is meant to be a temporary station and a short life span, there is no point in closing off a road to re route LUAS to a temporary railway station and all through construction phase.

markpb

Hamndegger wrote: »

350 metres is about the same distance that one has from the end of a platform in Connolly or Heuston to their respective Luas stops, or even Platforms 5, 6 and 7. The only difference here is that the walk is to a adjacent site of the same distance.

The only difference is that that walk in Connolly is entirely covered from our slightly inclement weather.

Given that Docklands is meant to be a temporary station and a short life span, there is no point in closing off a road to re route LUAS to a temporary railway station and all through construction phase.

That boat has sailed, Demsey has already indicated that he would like to see the temporary station kept.

bryanw

paulm17781 wrote: »

Were these not unconnected as the interconnector stop was going to be directly underneath the Luas one?

What I thought - Fine Gael making a mountain of of a mole hill - they'll be on about this for weeks. And of course none other than that rag of an Independent to the the ball of inaccuracy rolling! It's the BIG PICTURE that's at stake here.

Victor

loyatemu wrote: »

there's access to Docklands station from Spencer dock underneath Sherriff St - I reckon the walk would be no longer than the walk from Connolly Dart to Connolly Luas.

The walk between Connolly DART to Connolly Luas is excessive.

lostexpectation

the walk out of connolly is excessive what happen to the archways exit.

Frisk

Just thought those who are interested in the issue of the walk from Connolly Dart to Connolly Laus might be inetrested in the walk that a couple of thousand of us had yesterday morning on the Luas Green Line....literally on the Luas Green Line.

Green Line Luas's were stopping at Beechwood ...when i got there, there was a huge line of people stretching as far as you could see walking down the Luas track (which i think is an offence) into town in the rain - lovely image of how far we have come. Being a sheep i followed everyone else just to see where we eneded up.

It got really interesting when we all got to Harcort...by that stage the servcie was back up and they were trying to send a Luas out of town but there were peopel on the track way all the way back to Beechwood...nothing much that the two motor-cycle Gardai in attendance could do.

All the different languages you could hear on the walk into town...felt like a third world country.

L1011

markpb wrote: »

The only difference is that that walk in Connolly is entirely covered from our slightly inclement weather.

Except for the water which sometimes streams through the roof over platform 4!

dereko1969

Frisk wrote: »

All the different languages you could hear on the walk into town...felt like a third world country.

Not sure of the relevance of that comment and equally how many third world countries have many immigrants?

on victor's point about the walk between Connolly Dart and Luas stops and the Docklands stops, are people ever happy? Should the Luas at Connolly have been sent up amiens street, blocking up most of the road?

It's 350m, is that much more than from the top of grafton street to the bottom? maybe we should just cover all the streets of the city?

Frisk

Apologies for off-topic/hijacking previous post...didn't want to start up new post on the subject and thought posters would be interested.

re: All the different languages you could hear on the walk into town...felt like a third world country.

Apoligies for poor wording, what i meant was that i felt personally embarassed that all these people from around the world were experiencing this 'key piece of transport infrastructure' in this way...Ireland being the third world country.

No more on this I promise.

Moriarty

350 meters is too far to walk these days?

Seriously?

markpb

Moriarty wrote: »

350 meters is too far to walk these days?

Seriously?

If we want to attract people out of their warm, dry, air-conditioned, leather upholstered cars onto public transport, telling them they have to walk along the platform, leave the building, walk along a street, wait for another train on a platform that doesn't have much in the way of cover just to continue their journey, how successful do you think it will be?

A little bit of foresight and co-operation could have had the Luas run through or beside the Irish Rail station which would make the whole process simpler and more attractive. In Manchester, their LRT runs under the IC station so you can enter from the street or just go down the stairs from the main concourse. In Stockholm, one of their city bus stations is part of the underground Metro station so you just walk across the platform from train to bus. In Madrid, their IC bus station is underground beside the Metro station so you go upstairs and you're in the bus terminal. I could mention that it also leads onto a segregated bus lane on a dual carriageway so the buses get far out of the city before they merge with other traffic.

Moriarty

How do they survive when they get to either end of their journey? Have the chauffeur waiting?

Alun

Moriarty wrote: »

How do they survive when they get to either end of their journey? Have the chauffeur waiting?

Exactly. Unless they both live and work in a train station, then some degree of walking is inevitable at both ends of their total journey. People are just getting too damn lazy these days.

_Kaiser_

markpb wrote: »

If we want to attract people out of their warm, dry, air-conditioned, leather upholstered cars onto public transport, telling them they have to walk along the platform, leave the building, walk along a street, wait for another train on a platform that doesn't have much in the way of cover just to continue their journey, how successful do you think it will be?

Moriarty wrote: »

How do they survive when they get to either end of their journey? Have the chauffeur waiting?

Alun wrote: »

Exactly. Unless they both live and work in a train station, then some degree of walking is inevitable at both ends of their total journey. People are just getting too damn lazy these days.

Come on lads... whilst I agree with the last part of Alun's comment, I think we all know Mark means those people who walk from the front door to the car and then the car to the door of the office.

He's right too. Public transport is by its nature inconvenient. You have to walk to the stop/station, wait for the bus/train to arrive (in varying weather conditions and there's the regular occurance of said bus/train showing up late or not at all!), probably end up standing and crushed against other commuters, end up somewhere that's not exactly where you wanted to go via a route you probably didn't need/want to take, and it all takes a lot longer in most cases.

Why would anyone trade their car for that? Especially if you tell them they have to go for a stroll halfway through as well just to complete their journey.

_Kaiser_

Actually the biggest challenge public transport has to face in this country is the (accurate) perception that it's only a choice for those with no alternative.

Think about it.. most people in this country would probably say they use public transport because they have to, not because they want to.

I've said it before.. until we as a nation have a reliable, clean, efficent and customer (rather than union or management) oriented public transport system, then you can talk as much as you like but nothing will really change in the overall scheme of things.

Jamar

If you are looking at a commute, all these walks/waits in the rain build up. The car does beckon..

Skyhater

If i was Leo, I'd be concentrating on the real integration issues:

1) Integrated Ticketing
2) Will there be direct access from drumcondra IE station to metro north
3) What way will the Porterstown Metro (aka Luas) West stop integrate with the new IE station (same for link with kildare line)
4) Will there be direct access from Abbey St Luas stop to O'Connel Bridge Metro stop
5) ect, ect, ect!!

Basic rule of integration is you shouldn't be effected by the wind or rain!!!

He shouldn't be concentrating on a station that has no definite post interconnector plans (although IE say the may continue to use it - Navan trains???).

Me thinks Leo is getting the Spencer Dock Dart station mixed up with Dockland IE station.

lostexpectation

mass public transport is by its nature is most convenient for most people

fitzyshea

markpb wrote: »

The only difference is that that walk in Connolly is entirely covered from our slightly inclement weather.



That boat has sailed, Demsey has already indicated that he would like to see the temporary station kept.

Serious? I thought they wer egoing to knock it in a few years? SO it will be left there now?

markpb

fitzyshea wrote: »

Serious? I thought they wer egoing to knock it in a few years? SO it will be left there now?

I can't find the link now so I'm open to correction. I think it was about the time Demsey settled the row between RPA and IE over Broadstone, he said he'd like to see Docklands stay open for Kildare trains.

Edit: thank you wikipedia for this link

Propellerhead

Hamndegger wrote: »

This is a very good example of why Leo Varadkar is not a good transport spokesman; he has absolutely no idea of what he is on about here.

350 metres is about the same distance that one has from the end of a platform in Connolly or Heuston to their respective Luas stops, or even Platforms 5, 6 and 7. The only difference here is that the walk is to a adjacent site of the same distance. Given that Docklands is meant to be a temporary station and a short life span, there is no point in closing off a road to re route LUAS to a temporary railway station and all through construction phase.

Wrong on a number of counts.

1. Unless there's plans for a roof over the pavement between Docklands Station and Spencer Dock Luas, the walk will be in the open. Not at all like the walk between Connolly DART and Connolly Luas. 350 metres is the length of three and a half football pitches.

2. Docklands Station is now supposed to be permanent, according to Noel Dempsey.

3. Given the above, I suspect Leo Varadkar is a lot more clued in than you believe.

Carawaystick

The luas line comes closer to the Docklands station than the nearest luas stop.
When these two rail developments were being planned, the railway order for the luas was passed and 2or3 days later the planning application for the docklands station was sent to Dublin corpo. I believe there can be no way that the dept of transport were unaware of this non-integration. especialy as the dot have recently implied that the docklands station will stay after it's planning permission expires.

A tram stop isn't much more than kerbing and machinery. there's no huge access overhead like a heavy rail station where lifts/ramps/overbridges etc are necessary

Even if Docklands is to be abandoned, the luas machines could be removed and there would be very little left.

Traffic

Isnt this whats supposed to be built for the interconnector:


http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/ExampleStationDocklands.pdf


Therefore the two systems will be full integrated

Propellerhead

Open the pdf file referenced on the last post. If you look at the photograph of the proposed layout/location of the underground station there is a green roofed building about 100m to the left of the proposed emergency exit from the Spencer Dock station. That is the present Docklands station.

Mayor Street will integrate with Spencer Dock but its integration with the existing Docklands Station, and Docklands Station with Spencer Dock Station is poor to non-existent.

Traffic

The plan is to close docklands and have all services running through spenser dock

loyatemu

Traffic wrote: »

The plan is to close docklands and have all services running through spenser dock

the luas will be open long before that happens, and its likely the existing station will be retained for some long-distance diesel services anyway (Navan, Longford etc).

Though, as I've already said, the walk is not outrageously long and waiting times at the underground Dart station and Luas stop *should* not be too long. Put in a covered walkway (not expensive) - bobs yer uncle...

Ham'nd'egger

Propellerhead wrote: »

Wrong on a number of counts.

1. Unless there's plans for a roof over the pavement between Docklands Station and Spencer Dock Luas, the walk will be in the open. Not at all like the walk between Connolly DART and Connolly Luas. 350 metres is the length of three and a half football pitches.

2. Docklands Station is now supposed to be permanent, according to Noel Dempsey.

3. Given the above, I suspect Leo Varadkar is a lot more clued in than you believe.

1) Is a walkway actually needed for those who might go from a train to a LUAS in case it rains? I say might as not everybody would have use for it. Leo's local voters would co-incidentally be the main ones who may be affected without this crucial piece of rail infrastructure so me thinks it's more a whinge to make out he looks after his own than a genuine concern of a fault with this Luas stop.. This walkway wasn't a worry for FG when Luas was being built or designed so for complaints at this state are woefully out of order. If anything, monies for shelters at Luas and rail stations that can be used by ALL passengers from all over Irelandwould be more fruitful than Leo's Blanchardstonwn umbrella.

2) As it stands, Docklands is still a temporary station and until otherwise annunced, it is a waste of time and cash to plan anything long term around it.

3) If Leo is more clued in on this, he would want to show it in future and make less parochially centred calls on issues than this.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote: »

2) As it stands, Docklands is still a temporary station and until otherwise annunced, it is a waste of time and cash to plan anything long term around it.

You sure about this? I thought it was definitely being retained.

Propellerhead

Hamndegger wrote: »

1) Is a walkway actually needed for those who might go from a train to a LUAS in case it rains? I say might as not everybody would have use for it. Leo's local voters would co-incidentally be the main ones who may be affected without this crucial piece of rail infrastructure so me thinks it's more a whinge to make out he looks after his own than a genuine concern of a fault with this Luas stop.. This walkway wasn't a worry for FG when Luas was being built or designed so for complaints at this state are woefully out of order. If anything, monies for shelters at Luas and rail stations that can be used by ALL passengers from all over Irelandwould be more fruitful than Leo's Blanchardstonwn umbrella.

2) As it stands, Docklands is still a temporary station and until otherwise annunced, it is a waste of time and cash to plan anything long term around it.

3) If Leo is more clued in on this, he would want to show it in future and make less parochially centred calls on issues than this.

http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/2008/02/dempsey-derails-ambitious-ci-plan-and.html quotes an Irish Times report in February last, citing Dempsey's intention to retain Docklands.

I would have thought that the lack of integration in Dublin's public transport was something that an opposition spokesman should be concerned about so I'm puzzled why you think that isn't his business.

Ham'nd'egger

Propellerhead wrote: »

http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/2008/02/dempsey-derails-ambitious-ci-plan-and.html quotes an Irish Times report in February last, citing Dempsey's intention to retain Docklands.

I would have thought that the lack of integration in Dublin's public transport was something that an opposition spokesman should be concerned about so I'm puzzled why you think that isn't his business.

I am well aware that both Dempsey and Irish Rail want the station retained but this is a matter for planning permission in order for it's life to be extended. In all probability it will be kept on but it would be aloof to make any long term arrangements on the assumption that it will be granted. In relation to "intergration", a glorified veranda or walkway is hardly the missing link to make it a success and making it "intergrate" better, and it mainly benefits D 15 residents using this small walk. There is other parts of Luas that can do with extra shelters before this; it would be a better investment for all users IMO.

Propellerhead

So, the Government can provide a station for D15 residents and the Opposition can't point out its shortcomings? That's a good one. Your earlier posts seemed to indicate that you believed Docklands to be temporary.

Is there any chance that there will ever be strategic thinking about public transport backed up with hard cash and timely planning? It seems to me that public transport is viewed as something to be tinkered with at its edges with a finite amount of money, and if its hubs don't work it doesn't matter. "Ah, sure, it'll do" was always the worst thing about public transport planning in this country, seeing as there was never any thought given to land use and sustainable transport until most of the west side of the city was built.