Top 10 all-around performers

Vince135792003

Blatantly stolen off a Baltimore Sun article: (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/wrestling/blog/2008/04/ric_flair_and_the_great_debate.html)

Who in your opinion are the top 10 all round performers you have ever seen?

The following is the criteria:

1. in ring ability
2. charisma
3. promo skills
4. wrestlers that you have seen enough of to judge


After maybe a week or so I might do a total for the 5 most popular on the board but we'll see how it goes.

Anywhere here's my list:

1. Shawn Michaels
2. Ric Flair
3. The Rock
4. Bret Hart
5. Steve Austin
6. Kurt Angle
7. Ricky Steamboat
8. Mick Foley
9. Eddie Guererro
10. Randy Savage

Honourable mention to guys who I have just not seen enough of in their prime to consider but whenever I have seen them they’ve been awesome: Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Sergeant Slaughter, Pat Patterson, Ray Stevens and Roddy Piper.


I think you can pick plenty of holes in mine but the more I thought about it, the more confused I got. I'm rock solid on my top three picks but after that, I'm slightly less sure. It's so hard to narrow 10 down especially under the 4 criteria.

For example I put Steamboat at number 7 just for the fact that he was so good in the ring. You could argue however that on the mic he was less than stellar and as a result maybe somebody like a Triple H (good in every area but not great in 1 in my opinion) is a more deserving pick to be in the top 10.

Anyway all comments are welcome and post your top 10 too.

Mr.Nice Guy

Great topic. Agree with a lot of your suggestions Vince. I see what you mean about getting confused about choices so I'm going to name those I feel I've seen enough of and score them in the other three categories mentioned - in-ring ability, charisma and promos - to see what I'm left with (yes I do have a lot of time on my hands ). Ok here goes...

In ring ability, charisma, promos:

1. Shawn Michaels (10/10/9) = 29
2. The Rock (7.5/10/10) = 27.5
3. Steve Austin (8.5/10/10 = 28.5
4. Bret Hart (10/8/7) = 25
5. Ric Flair (9/10/10) = 29
6. Kurt Angle (10/9/8) = 27
7. Triple H (8.5/9/8) = 25.5
8. Mick Foley (7/8.5/9) = 24.5
9. Undertaker (8.5/9/7.5) = 25
10. Chris Jericho (8.5/9.5/9) = 27
11. Edge (8/9/8) = 25
12. Eddie Guerrero (9/10/9) = 28
13. John Cena (8/10/8.5) = 26.5
14. Trish Stratus (9/8.5/7) = 24.5
15. Rob Van Dam (8/8/6) = 22
16. Rey Mysterio (10/8/5.5) = 23.5
17. Hulk Hogan (6.5/10/9) = 25.5
18. Randy Orton (8/8/7) = 23


So then my top ten are...


1. Shawn Michaels
2. Ric Flair
3. Steve Austin
4. Eddie Guerrero
5. The Rock
6. Kurt Angle
7. Chris Jericho
8. John Cena
9. Hulk Hogan
10. Triple H

Where there were ties I made a judgement call. Pretty surprised at how that turned out as I would have expected The Rock to be higher and Bret Hart to make the list but I guess when you are looking for an even balance in all the areas then certain weaknesses will hurt big names.

Interesting topic I have to say. I enjoyed going through all that. :cool:

Vince135792003

That's actually a good way to do it giving each wrestler a score in the 3 areas.

Your scores all seem pretty good to me in terms of what I'd score. I do think you over rated Chris Jericho and Eddie Guererro to an extent aswell though.

I think with Eddie, there was a limited time when it all came together for him in that his promos were at a 9 or 10 (towards the end of his career) while his work in the ring was diminishing (relative to his high standard) due to his body breaking down. In contrast, earlier in his career, he was awesome in the ring but in terms of charisma he had none in comparison to his partner Art Barr who exuded it.

In contrast you have a guy like Bret Hart or even Triple H to an extent who excelled in terms of consistency which doesn't get reflected in the scoring. So maybe consistency needs to be added to the criteria even if it makes it more complicated!

On Jericho, I like him alot but you overated him by a mark in each score you gave him (with the exception of the in ring ability mark you gave him) in my opinion.

I also wouldn't have RVD a mark ahead of Mick Foley or a half a mark ahead of the Rock in terms of wrestling/in ring ability. Foley's and Rocks scores fro in ring are a little low I think. The Rock just had so many good matches. I think in hindsight his ring work got overlooked because he was so special on the mic.

I guess you can interprate in ring ability in different ways but I just really looked at it in terms of who had the most great matches. But hey, it's all opinions and it's not an easy thing to logically go through and be 100% bullet proof.

Bubs101

Using the Nice guy system
In ring ability, charisma, promos:

Kurt Angle (10/9/10)
HBK (10,8,10)
The Rock (7,10,10)
Stone Cold (7,8,10)
Edge (7,10,9)
Jericho (9,7,10)
Vince Mcmahon (5,8,10)
Brock Lesnar (9,9,3)
Chyna (8,10,5)
JBL(6,8,8)
RVD(8,6,6)
Christian(8,8,9)
Cena(8,9,6)
Orton(9,8,4)
HHH(8,10,9)
Taker (7,10,8)
Kane(5,10,8)
Big Show (6,10,7)
Booker T (8,9,7)
Benoit (9,8,6)
Foley (7,8,9)

So

1. Kurt Angle 29
2. HBK 28
3. The Rock 27
4. HHH 27
5. Edge 26
6. Jericho 26
7. Christian 25
8. Taker 25
9. Booker T 24
10. Vince 24

As the 4th criteria was wrestlers that you've seen enough of to judge I couldn't judge Hogan because I tuned out before the NWO returned and of what I saw of Flair he had very little in ring ability. Needless to day I'm a younger fan than you two.

oneofakind32

1. Christian Cage
2. Christian Cage
3. Christian Cage
4. Christian Cage
5. Christian Cage
6. Christian Cage
7. Christian Cage
8. Christian Cage
9. Christian Cage
10. Christian Cage

judas101

oneofakind32 wrote: »

1. Christian Cage
2. Christian Cage
3. Christian Cage
4. Christian Cage
5. Christian Cage
6. Christian Cage
7. Christian Cage
8. Christian Cage
9. Christian Cage
10. Christian Cage

ermmm....no?

Muff_Daddy

In ring ability, charisma, promos:

Shawn Michaels (9.5/9.5/9) - 28.5
The Rock (7/10/10) = 27
Steve Austin (10/10/10) = 30
Bret Hart (10/8/7) = 25
Ric Flair (9/10/10) = 29
Kurt Angle (10/8/8) = 26
Triple H (8/8/7) = 23
Mick Foley (5/8.5/10) = 23.5
Undertaker (9/10/8.5) = 27.5
Chris Jericho (8/9.5/7.5) = 25
Edge (8/9/8) = 25
Eddie Guerrero (9/9/7) = 25
John Cena (8/10/5.5) = 23.5
Rob Van Dam (9/8/6) = 23
Rey Mysterio (9/7/5) = 21
Hulk Hogan (7.5/10/9) = 26.5
Randy Orton (8/5.5/7) = 20.5
Booker (8.5/8/9) = 25.5
Randy Savage (9/10/8) = 27
Ricky Steambat (10/7.5/7.5) = 25

In Conclusion:

1. Stone Cold Steve Austin 30
2. Ric Flair 29
3. Shawn Michaels 28.5
4. Undertaker 27.5
5. Randy Savage 27
6. The Rock 27
7. Hulk Hogan 26.5
8. Kurt Angle 26
9. Booker T 25.5
10 Bret Hart 25

I think the only problem with the critera is that the more charasmatic guys tend to have the best promo's, hence guys like Jericho, Eddie and Booker T will score quite high. I have Booker and Hogan higher than Bret on this list, and there's no way I believe Booker is better than Bret.

However, no doubt in my mind that Stone Cold is the best of all time.

Vince135792003

I know it's only opinions but I think giving Mick Foley a 5 as a wrestler is very harsh. He wasn't a traditional great worker but he was by no means simply a garbage wrestler. The guy for his time had unique, good to great matches.

Today, I think there is a tendency to take the style of wrestling that he brought to ring for granted. For his time though, it was eye opening.

He's had some great ones with Sting (who wasn't having that many great ones at the time), Austin (I think Austins best opponent), Vader, Undertaker (again at a time when 'Taker wasn't consistently having great matches), Triple H and had an awesome match with Shawn Michaels.

I'm not saying he deserves a 10 but just a 5? I don't agree.

I also don't get how The Rock is a 7 but RVD is a 9. I like RVD but I think that's being overly generous.

Muff_Daddy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I know it's only opinions but I think giving Mick Foley a 5 as a wrestler is very harsh. He wasn't a traditional great worker but he was by no means simply a garbage wrestler. The guy for his time had unique, good to great matches.

Today, I think there is a tendency to take the style of wrestling that he brought to ring for granted. For his time though, it was eye opening.

He's had some great ones with Sting (who wasn't having that many great ones at the time), Austin (I think Austins best opponent), Vader, Undertaker (again at a time when 'Taker wasn't consistently having great matches), Triple H and had an awesome match with Shawn Michaels.

I'm not saying he deserves a 10 but just a 5? I don't agree.

Maybe I was a little harsh on Mick, he certaintly gave us some of the most memorable matches in history.....even if he was a gloryfied stuntman to a certain extent. I guess if by 'in ring skills' you mean the abailty to create 'Holy Sh!t' moments, then I would have scored him higher. I don't want to come across as bashing Foley because I do appreciate everything he has put himself through to entertain the fans, it's just prehaps I'm looking at in ring skills in a different way to you Vince.

I have to disagree with you saying Mick was Stone Cold's best opponent though. Austin has had tons of better matches with opponents other than Foley - The Rock, HHH, Kurt Angle, HBK, Chris Benoit, Bret, Taker, pretty much endless list, including Mick Foley of course. Austin had about 10 arguable ****+ matches in his last full year, 2001 alone.

Vince135792003

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

Maybe I was a little harsh on Mick, he certaintly gave us some of the most memorable matches in history.....even if he was a gloryfied stuntman to a certain extent. I guess if by 'in ring skills' you mean the abailty to create 'Holy Sh!t' moments, then I would have scored him higher.

I don't mean holy **** moments at all in terms of defining in ring ability. I define in ring ability as a guy who simply had great matches.

The glorified stuntman is an over played card by his critics and maybe it's perpetuated to an extent with some of his more recent matches.

At his peak however, the guy could work. His matches with Michaels, Triple H, Austin weren't awesome because of simply the stunts he did. They told a story that was truly compelling and had you on the edge of your seat.

Plenty of people in wrestling have done and gone beyond what he has done in terms of stunts. The difference with Foley was he got you to care.

I'd definitely say the point on Foley being Austins best opponent is arguable. They had some great ones though. If people think Cena gets good crowd heat today in his matches, they should watch Foley and Austin at Over the Edge in 1998.

chopperbyrne

1. Hulk Hogan
2 - 10 is just whatever your personal preference is, but Hogan is undoubtedly the best all around performer of all time.

krudler

chopperbyrne wrote: »

1. Hulk Hogan
2 - 10 is just whatever your personal preference is, but Hogan is undoubtedly the best all around performer of all time.

you're kidding right? charisma and energy wise hes up there but hes been in some of the worst matches ever, an all rounder can have good matches with just about anyone

1. Shawn Michaels
2-10. doesnt matter, they're not Shawn Michaels;)

chopperbyrne

Shawn would be my number two, but I still stand by Hogan being the best performer of all time.

Muff_Daddy

chopperbyrne wrote: »

1. Hulk Hogan
2 - 10 is just whatever your personal preference is, but Hogan is undoubtedly the best all around performer of all time.

Austin was every bit as popular as Hogan, in an era when there was more stars than Hogan's, and he didn't have to 'go hollywood' to boost his profile, and he was the better worker to boot.

He completely re-defined the face role from a superhero type character, to an ass kicking redneck who drank beer, and stuck his finger up at authority, and he did that because he was so good at playing that role.

Austin did as much for the buisness in a five year run than Hogan did in 15 years.

Bubs101

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

Austin did as much for the buisness in a five year run than Hogan did in 15 years.

What nonsense. Without the path that Hogan blazed Austin never would have gotten as big as him

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

What nonsense. Without the path that Hogan blazed Austin never would have gotten as big as him

Dave Meltzer summed it up pretty well one time. He said, "Hogan made the company and Austin saved it".

Muff_Daddy

Bubs101 wrote: »

Without the path that Hogan blazed Austin never would have gotten as big as him

True. But Austin is the main guy responsible for ushering in the attitude era, and bringing in the next generation of fans. Where would wrestling be if it wasn't for Stone Cold? Back in the mid-ninties is where.

Bubs101

No it wouldn't. HBK, HHH, Chyna and the NAO ushered in the attitude era and D-X inspired the creation of the NWO which kept it going in the other company. Without Vince to play off Austin would never have gotten as big where as the difference is that Hogan and say, the Rock, still would have made it to the top regardless of who they were facing.

orestes

krudler wrote: »

1. Shawn Michaels
2-10. doesnt matter, they're not Shawn Michaels;)

1. Shawn Michaels
2. Whoever happens to be in the ring with him at the time, cos that guy can drag a great match out of bloody anybody

Muff_Daddy

Bubs101 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. HBK, HHH, Chyna and the NAO ushered in the attitude era and D-X inspired the creation of the NWO which kept it going in the other company. Without Vince to play off Austin would never have gotten as big where as the difference is that Hogan and say, the Rock, still would have made it to the top regardless of who they were facing.

For me, the attitude era began with Austin in the sharpshooter against Bret at WM13. Obviously, it wasn't Austin alone who made the attitude era, and DX, The Rock, Foley, Undertaker, Kane, Vince and others contributed their parts to making wrestling unmissable in the late 90's/early 2000's. But during that time, no-one reached the popularity of Austin, not even The Rock. In any given arena at the time, I'd say at least 75% of audiences were wearing Austin 3:16 shirts. Vince McMahon wasn't Austins only rival, although I would agree, he was his best rival, and they worked brilliantly together.

Whether you think Austin was the best of all time is a matter of opinion, but the question is 'best all round performer', and Austin had it all. Ric Flair, who a lot of people believe is the best of all time, said so himself in his HoF speach.

Bubs101

You say that nobody ever reached the popularity of Austin but Hogan is still the most popular wrestler ever.

Personally, I think the voting system doesn't help Austin.You say he had it all but personally I don't think He wasn't great in the ring and a lot of his matches ended the same way. Lou Thez press, a couple of mudstomps, gets beaten up a little, stunner out of nowhere. Also, I don't think he was that charismatic. Bischoff certainly didn't think so and after all he is just a bald guy. The gimmick certainly adds charisma but I don't see how he could score 10 in that. Needless to say he gets a 10 for promos.

I just often wonder if he didn't have Vince and the Rock, two of the greatest heels in history (for me, Vince is THE greatest after WWF Kurt) how well he would have gotten over.

Fozzy

Bubs101 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. HBK, HHH, Chyna and the NAO ushered in the attitude era and D-X inspired the creation of the NWO which kept it going in the other company.

The nWo were formed a good year before DX

Bubs101 wrote: »

You say he had it all but personally I don't think He wasn't great in the ring and a lot of his matches ended the same way. Lou Thez press, a couple of mudstomps, gets beaten up a little, stunner out of nowhere.

Have you seen him from before he broke his neck? He had to change his style, he was a great wrestler before that and he adapted and was able to make his new style work for him

Bubs101 wrote: »

Also, I don't think he was that charismatic. Bischoff certainly didn't think so and after all he is just a bald guy. The gimmick certainly adds charisma but I don't see how he could score 10 in that. Needless to say he gets a 10 for promos.

The man is full of charisma! I have no idea how anyone could think otherwise. There aren't many wrestlers who I could call more charismatic than him

Bubs101

Fozzy wrote: »

Have you seen him from before he broke his neck? He had to change his style, he was a great wrestler before that and he adapted and was able to make his new style work for him

Only one or two ringmaster matches but even still, he's best remembered for his work after the break (having said that I don't know when it was so it's a guess) so it would be ridiculous to judge him on his in ring ability just in his prime. If that were the case you could judge Hogan solely on his Japanese work which is meant to be very very good. In the ring he was limited

Fozzy wrote: »

The man is full of charisma! I have no idea how anyone could think otherwise. There aren't many wrestlers who I could call more charismatic than him

Because he had no physichal charisma. He didn't have the Rock's smile, Hogan's handlebar tash, Big Show's size. He was just a tall bald guy which isn't exactly my idea of charismatic

Fozzy

On topic, I don't think I can give a list of my top 10 because it would change by tomorrow. I don't think that rating the three criteria out of 10 works because I don't believe that the three are worth the same. Robert DeNiro would get a 20 and he'd beat someone like Kane, but Kane is clearly a better all-round wrestling performer. Maybe that's a silly example, but I just think that in-ring ability counts for more

Up the very top though, I'd put Eddy Guerrero. As an all-round performer he could wrestle different styles and cut different sorts of promos

Austin would be up there too, with Flair, Pillman, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Rock and Angle

Although promos aren't a part of Japanese wrestling, Jumbo Tsuruta and Kenta Kobashi would make it onto the list based on in-ring ability and charisma alone

That's ten so I'll stop there

krudler

Bubs101 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. HBK, HHH, Chyna and the NAO ushered in the attitude era and D-X inspired the creation of the NWO which kept it going in the other company. Without Vince to play off Austin would never have gotten as big where as the difference is that Hogan and say, the Rock, still would have made it to the top regardless of who they were facing.

you do realise that the nWo were formed in 1996 and DX in 97 right? DX were almost a direct copy of the nWo, cocky,charismatic cool to cheer heels, it was Eric Bischoff and Paul Heyman who brought attitude to wrestling not Vince, Vince used it in WWF as a direct response to WCWs soaring ratings and changing fanbase, while its true that Vinces use of it did more for the WWFs popularity in the long run he used it out of necessity rather than building on it from the start, and its often been stated that Austin drew more money in his shorter run as the top star in the WWF/E than Hogan did, merchandise, ppv and ratings were never higher, granted more homes had ppv access in 1998 than 1988 but still

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

Up the very top though, I'd put Eddy Guerrero. As an all-round performer he could wrestle different styles and cut different sorts of promos

Eddie was on my list so I don't want to downplay him. However, in a previous post I made the point that he had it all but for a pretty short span of time or for alot of his career, he had 1 thing (in ring ability) but didn't have the other (great promos).

As I said earlier, when he started he was pretty dam great in the ring but had no charisma comparitively to Art Barr. While it was only at the tail end end of his career that he really started to become a truly awesome promo at the same time he was diminishing (by his very standards) in the ring. In fairness though I guess you can make that argument with other guys too though.

Just on Austin, the guy was great in the ring pre and post neck injury. The matches he had with Benoit, Angle, Rock, Regal and Triple H after he came from neck surgery were kind of amazing in that he could have easily coasted to an extent of his name but instead really pushed himself and had his best year in the ring in my opinion.

cooker3

Kurt Angle
Shawn Michaels
Everyone else. (I never seen Flair is in prime but if I did I imagine I put him there)
Austin and Rock are obv fantastic but when it comes to wrestling skill and memorable matches which is the main part for me then nobody matched those 2 imo

Cactus Col

1. Kurt Angle
2. The Undertaker
3. Shawn Michaels
4. Mr Perfect
5. Steve Austin
6. The Rock
7. Randy Savage
8. Eddie Guerrero
9. Owen Hart
10. Bret Hart


I'm pretty sure Angle is the greatest all rounder in wrestling, certainly in the new Millenium. Unfortunately for him he came to wrestling mid era, as the attitude era was winding down, and before the new modern one began. I also think it's interesting that the only main eventers of the modern era (who made it into the main event within the last 5 years or so) getting a look in are Edge and Christian.
Edge just got pushed out of my top ten, and I haven't seen enough of TNA to really rate Christian.
I slightly broadened the definition of "in ring ability". I know most people take it to mean that someone is a great technical wrestler, however, Undertaker, while definetly not a master technician has proven time and again his ability to get great matches out of people with limited abilities. His in ring work is vastly underrated. And he gets a bonus for longevity.

Vince135792003

I like Curt Hennig alot. Did he have better matches than the 6 behind him though? If you add them up I don't think he did. I think the same applies for his promo ability too.

Cactus Col

Well, I think he was better in the ring than Austin and the Rock, and he certainly had more charisma and promo skills than Owen and Bret. When given the chance he put on great matches, such as the classic with Bret Hart at summerslam. Like Owen Hart though, he never got that spark to push him over the top.

Bret Hart I found to be pretty uncharismatic. He's only in there by the skin of his teeth.

I probably could slide Eddie Guerrero up a few places, but I wasn't a big fan of his for a long time.

Vince135792003

Like I said I liked Mr. Perfect alot. I don't think he's quite a top 10 performer though.

I don't think he had more good matches than anyone who you listed below him. I can only come up with 4 to 5 great ones he had. Now for a large part of his career he was part of a WWF that didn't exactly place an emphasis on great matches but even still, from 1993 to his death, I can't think of too many great ones he had. The back injury took its toll on him.

His promos were pretty good during the 1980's but not on the level of Savage, Guererro, Austin or Rock to me. Also Bret Hart as a heel to me did better promos than Hennig. Bret's came off as way more believable and less cheesy.

As far as charisma goes, again I just think he's a notch below of pretty much everyone the list.

chopperbyrne

Yeah, but he had the coolest vignettes ever!

"Wow! That's amazing!"
"No, that's perfect!"

JP Liz

The Rock
HBK Shawn Michaels
Y2J Chris Jericho
Stone Cold Steve Austin
HHH
Edge
Ric Flair
Kurt Angle
The Hitman Bret Hart
John Cena
Hulk Hogan