RFU ELV Survey

Stev_o

Just wondered has anyone else taken it? Very easy and only takes a minute to do.

http://www.rfusurvey.co.uk/

How did people answer?

marco_polo

Stev_o wrote: »

Just wondered has anyone else taken it? Very easy and only takes a minute to do.

http://www.rfusurvey.co.uk/

How did people answer?

Mostly in a negative light. There are some of the laws that I quite like and some I detest, but to change so many of them at all at once makes any proper detailed analysis into the effect of any single law very hard to do properly.

I would like to see a much slower evaluation process tried out over a much longer timescale. If it is an all or nothing approach then no thank you very much. To me it just smacks of desperation to 'sex' up Rugby Union and is mainly being driven by the ARFU.

komodosp

Hmmm... I hope they don't base their descisions on the results of that survey... I would hate to think the "Eurovision" approach is being applied to something important!

toomevara

Problem with the ELVs is that in isolation a lot of them seem like good ideas, but when applied en-masse the game becomes (see s14) a mess and loses 'something' essential..that X-factor that makes Rugby Union a great game...

I was all for giving the ELV's a go, and was very hopeful about them, but having watched alot of the s14 this year I'd have to say they don't work..the game's a mess.. That said they didn't trial what would have been,imo, the most revolutionary law...5.05 (I think) which allows players on their feet to handle the ball in the ruck..introduce a genuine contest for the ball on the floor...

Did the survey, interesting idea, at least they're having some sort of a consultative process involving punters, players etc... (compare and contrast with the IRFU's vatican-like approach to the running of the game)..As for my answers a mixed bag...but leave the bloody maul alone, its one of the great sights on a rugby union field!

Crash

toomevara wrote: »

but leave the bloody maul alone, its one of the great sights on a rugby union field!

And I want more than two seasons of getting to see an actual leinster maul

toomevara

çrash_000 wrote: »

And I want more than two seasons of getting to see an actual leinster maul

I feel your pain...one of the best reasons I've heard for preserving the noble art!

JWAD

marco_polo wrote: »

To me it just smacks of desperation to 'sex' up Rugby Union and is mainly being driven by the ARFU.

Well, its good to see the punditry has reached its cerebral goals.
Not bad for a two-vote union then to cause all this commotion, eh? A union who supposedly has weak scrummagers all over the country is rooting for a ruleset which............leads to more scrums???
I suppose the IRB have nothing to do with at all? :rolleyes:

There are some ELVs are coming to the game. Get used to them, folks.

dc69

I dont see that much wrong with the ELV's.All it seems to do is encourage running rugby.Obviously some are bad but I think the majority are good.

I like the one where the opposition can collapse the maul and a free kick has to be taken,will make the game much more exciting imo.

toomevara

dc69 wrote: »

I like the one where the opposition can collapse the maul .

Arghhhh!!!! NOooooo!! Save the Maul..its a thing or rare beauty...it's loss will badly depower the game...

dc69

toomevara wrote: »

Arghhhh!!!! NOooooo!! Save the Maul..its a thing or rare beauty...it's loss will badly depower the game...

All it means is that the game will be more entertaining.Munster fans will be objectionable:) in saying that Leinster have got their maul on this year!,I prefer it gone.A nice scorefest with every team running the ball at all oppertunitys.

davyjose

dc69 wrote: »

I I like the one where the opposition can collapse the maul and a free kick has to be taken,will make the game much more exciting imo.

That's the worst one.

Guess what people, some of us actually like Rugby as it is, and SHOCKHORROR some of us already find it exciting.
Some of the rules are good, but some of them, such as the one above, are trying to deprive the game of some of the subtle skills that make it such a great game.

Podge_irl

dc69 wrote: »

A nice scorefest with every team running the ball at all oppertunitys.

Ugh, sounds horrible. The odd "scorefest" is fun, much like the odd wet, physical match is fascinating to watch. The whole point of rugby to me is the diversity in the ways the game can be played. Teams running the ball at every opportunity would quite frankly bore me eventually.

dc69

davyjose wrote: »

That's the worst one.

Guess what people, some of us actually like Rugby as it is, and SHOCKHORROR some of us already find it exciting.
Some of the rules are good, but some of them, such as the one above, are trying to deprive the game of some of the subtle skills that make it such a great game.

It depends on what you like to see in a match,My idea of the best match ever was the Leinster v tolouse match afew years ago.I personally favour running rugby,so the new rules if introduced wont aggrieve me too much.

I can see how some people dont like them.Each to their own I suppose.

Podge_irl

dc69 wrote: »

It depends on what you like to see in a match,My idea of the best match ever was the Leinster v tolouse match afew years ago.

Also one of my favourite matches. But do you not think the impact of it would have been lessened if most games were played like that?

Sabre0001

That's forcing teams to play one way though...That's the beauty of rugby, contrasting styles, different strategies and different games for different conditions.

Think of how crap games in wet weather will be! No mauls, knock-ons all the time, not something I want to see.

Also not a fan of free kicks for most infringements. Despite them saying that traditional penalties will be given for constant infringements, I think these frees will get in the way - it's also less of a punishment on teams that constantly infringe and punish Outhalfs who have practiced their art to death!

marco_polo

JWAD wrote: »

Well, its good to see the punditry has reached its cerebral goals.
Not bad for a two-vote union then to cause all this commotion, eh? A union who supposedly has weak scrummagers all over the country is rooting for a ruleset which............leads to more scrums???
I suppose the IRB have nothing to do with at all? :rolleyes:

There are some ELVs are coming to the game. Get used to them, folks.

I must have been thinking of a different Union who are desperatly trying to push the ELVs into use in International test rugby by August, before they have even been trialled in the professional game in the NH.

If these experiments are not being in a large part driven by SH commercial interests, ie falling interest in the S14 and 3N, then why the rush to push them through. It seems to me that certain NH unions (WRFU and the RFU) are beginning to ask the same questions.

Stev_o

My on views on the ELV's are that they are ALL rubbish and very pointless.

The only thing that needs to be changed is the breakdown situation as if any openside's or even knowledgeable players here will agree that the rules are a mess and the reffing of the it is god damn awful

JWAD

marco_polo wrote: »

I must have been thinking of a different Union who are desperatly trying to push the ELVs into use in International test rugby by August, before they have even been trialled in the professional game in the NH

While the ARU are all for ELVs being implemented, I think you'll find they do not control the IRB. Quite the opposite, in fact so so what if they moot them?

marco_polo wrote: »

If these experiments are not being in a large part driven by SH commercial interests, ie falling interest in the S14 and 3N, then why the rush to push them through. It seems to me that certain NH unions (WRFU and the RFU) are beginning to ask the same questions.

Well, get ready for their views on them then. You're going to see them all for some and against others. Some ELVs will be brought into the world game, I'd say from what I hear.

[Jackass]

I liked some of the clarifications of the off-side rule and greater enforcment both at the breakdown, entering a ruck/maul and when playing out to the backline as this is a grey area at best and is exploited as it is, but other than that, I don't think general rules for rucks, mauls, lineouts etc. should be touched and I don't think a free-kick is the answer to nearly all infringments, scrum it down!!

John_C

There was a thread on here a while ago that said a team has the option of a scrum instead of a free kick under these rules. Is that still the case?

marco_polo

JWAD wrote: »

While the ARU are all for ELVs being implemented, I think you'll find they do not control the IRB. Quite the opposite, in fact so so what if they moot them?


Well, get ready for their views on them then. You're going to see them all for some and against others. Some ELVs will be brought into the world game, I'd say from what I hear.

I don't have any problem with experimenting with the laws of the game, indeed I think that a number of the new laws could be very good for the game. However do you think that a trial of about half of the new rules in the Super 14 is a sound enough basis for a worldwide rollout of them in August? We don't even know if it is to be some of them, most of them or all of them at this stage.

It is exactly because of the way they are being pushed very aggressively by certain factions in Oz and NZ recently that there is a good chance they will be rejected at the forcoming meeting in May. If this happens it could leave very sour relations between the pro and anti camps for a long time to come. So far the RFU and WRFU are definately going to oppose them and I suspect that Ireland and Italy may yet do likewise.

It is not like rugby is completely broken and is a good product as is that is growing fast all over the world. Could it be improved?, of course. Bu I do think that all most reasonable people want is hard evidence that any changes made will bring about a definate improvement, without changing the core values of the game, before making such radical changes en mass. I cannot recall any other sport making so many changes to its rulebook all at once.

The not unreasonable fear amongst many rugby followers is that if the new laws are brought in and do not have a positive effect they will not be easily repealed.

davyjose

Stev_o wrote: »

My on views on the ELV's are that they are ALL rubbish and very pointless.

The only thing that needs to be changed is the breakdown situation as if any openside's or even knowledgeable players here will agree that the rules are a mess and the reffing of the it is god damn awful

Most of my "in favour of" answers were the ones where the law applies, but needs to be better enforced. One of the most maddening things about Rugby is the arbitrary way it can be refereed sometimes.

Worrytahs

marco_polo wrote: »

So far the RFU and WRFU are definately going to oppose them and I suspect that Ireland and Italy may yet do likewise

That is actually incorrect. So far, the unions you mention have made no official statements illustrating a stance on the ELVs. In fact, the general consensus at the moment is that some of the ELVs will be accepted while others will be opposed.

marco_polo

Worrytahs wrote: »

That is actually incorrect. So far, the unions you mention have made no official statements illustrating a stance on the ELVs. In fact, the general consensus at the moment is that some of the ELVs will be accepted while others will be opposed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7357536.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/solpda/ifs_sport/hi/newsid_7364000/7364130.stm?%253Fcache_buster=20070725042642

Worrytahs

marco_polo wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7357536.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/solpda/ifs_sport/hi/newsid_7364000/7364130.stm?%253Fcache_buster=20070725042642

Welsh RU Fella wrote:

"It's not in the best interests of the game that these laws are introduced en masse."

which more or less backs up exactly what I said.

Francis Baron never said anything about being de facto against the ELVs either.

marco_polo

Worrytahs wrote: »

which more or less backs up exactly what I said.

Francis Baron never said anything about being de facto against the ELVs either.

The point I was trying to make was that the RFU (and the GP clubs) are opposed to the blanket worldwide implementation of them this year, not the ELVs themselves, which is what I meant when I said they were going to oppose them in May. So I guess we are in agreement on this point:).

Worrytahs

marco_polo wrote: »

The point I was trying to make was that the RFU (and the GP clubs) are opposed to the blanket worldwide implementation of them this year, not the ELVs themselves, which is what I meant when I said they were going to oppose them in May. So I guess we are in agreement on this point:).

ok doke, dude

Inquitus

[rant]

The existing ELV's are brutal. Sitting here watching the S14 and I cannot see one rule which has been trialed in this competition which is good for the game.

The S14 is ****ing brutal this year.

[/rant]

toomevara

Inquitus wrote: »

[rant]

The existing ELV's are brutal. Sitting here watching the S14 and I cannot see one rule which has been trialed in this competition which is good for the game.

The S14 is ****ing brutal this year.

[/rant]

Fully agree, sound like you've been watching the same drivel I've had on all morning...It's virtually unwatchable...Reds V Crusaders, gimme strength, the game's a complete monstrosity...

It's like 7's, hardly a scrum/lineout all game...run, ruck, run, ruck, turnover, run, ruck..laughable. if this stuff becomes the norm I reckon me and rugby union are going to have a parting of the ways (never, ever thought I'd say that)...

Inquitus

I find it alot like league......they seem to be trying to keep the ball alive constantly....even when it would be better to setup a ruck and re-align..........this I am guessing is due to the new ambiguities of the ruck turnover ELV.

But yes, it's a woeful affair.

Snickers Man

JWAD wrote: »

Not bad for a two-vote union then to cause all this commotion, eh? A union who supposedly has weak scrummagers all over the country is rooting for a ruleset which............leads to more scrums???
I suppose the IRB have nothing to do with at all? :rolleyes:

Good point. The Australians as a nation are hopeless at selling crap. Unlike our American cousins who have the whole world eating Kentucky Fried Chicken and half pounder cheeseburgers, nobody will buy anything from an Aussie unless it's demonstrably worthwhile.

So you've done well with your wines, for example. Classic French grape varieties and modern technology producing similar wine to the classic French wines at an affordable price.

but when you try to peddle something that is undeniably rubbish, the rest of the world doesn't want to know. I talk, of course, of rugby league at which you are the undisputed world masters. But the known world of Rugby League extends to Sydney, Brisbane and the decrepit rust belt of Northern England.

Why is this? After all, you've had this as a professional game for over 100 years. You've had it as a game with extremely wealthy media sponsors and backers for more than 20 years. Why have you been SO crap at spreading it even into the traditional heartland of rugby? What are South Africa like at Rugby League? France? Wales?

The only possible answer is that even though it's a simpler game and has lots of "ball in hand" it is such a dumbed-down one-dimensional sport that it is of little appeal to the masses.

Now rugby, on the other hand, is growing by leaps and bounds because it is such a great social game to PLAY. And one about which you can get passionate about supporting your local team of misshapen misfits of all sizes.

Nobody likes watching 80 minutes of mauling, but the contrast between a tight forward battle and some genuine athleticism in the backs is the great and enduring attraction of Union. These marketing muppets that have inevitably come into the game since it went professional seem to think that if you can take a highlight and repeat it more frequently the game will be better.

No it won't. It will become monotonous and tedious.

These rules are designed to minimise the instances of traditional forward play and promote a more open running game. What that will do is diminish the number of people who will play in the forwards. Instead of eight forwards and seven backs you will have about two or three forwards and 12 or 13 backs. The trouble is that they will have no space to play in.

So we'll reduce the numbers. To say 13 a side. Can't you see where this is going?

It's going to a game that nobody has been able to sell outside its traditional heartland. And the reason it has remained popular there is because too many people in northern england want to continue the animosity of a 19th century class struggle and too many people in Australia want to continue an early 20th century identity struggle.

Union in Australia is for monarchists; League for Republicans.

The rest of the world couldn't give a rats. Let us have our old game back.

JWAD wrote:

There are some ELVs are coming to the game. Get used to them, folks.

Some. I can live with, even welcome. EG more power to touch judges. Clearer offside laws.

But removing penalties to let cheats win through? Hell no. Pulling down a maul to let forwards fanny about in the back line? Hell no.

toomevara

Snickers Man wrote: »

. I talk, of course, of rugby league at which you are the undisputed world masters. But the known world of Rugby League extends to Sydney, Brisbane and the decrepit rust belt of Northern England.
.

Feckwallery of the first rank, and indeed almost a carbon copy of a post you chucked up here a couple of months back...a typically partisan and un-informed anti-rugby league rant from an individual whose clearly never been further north than Picadilly Circus.....

If you took the time to look beyond your petty, uproariously ill-informed prejudices and hilariously hackneyed 1960's 'kes' style vision of northern England you'd know that the north is a vibrant, humming, generally all round fantastic place to live...with all due respect 'rust belt' me hole!

I've got the good fortune to live in Leeds home to the magnificent Leeds Rhinos the best supported rugby club of either code in the UK. League is a great game (just like union), its roots are deep here and have nothing to do with the type of laughable class war scenario you paint...sure its an easy stereotype to roll out to gain a few chuckles from the anti-league brigade, but its one major flaw as an argument is that its flat wrong, not a consideration that seems to matter for you unfortunately...

You dont like league, grand, thats your perogative, but don't use Union's current woes and unfortunate crisis of identity as a convenient stick with which to bash those of us who know, love and appreciate the 13 man code.

There's plenty of room for both codes and no feckin' need whatsoever for prejudiced tirades from supporters of one against t'other,.

As regards your stance on the ELV's in union, I'm completely in agreement with you, the soul of the game is most definitely at stake and I for one don't want to see union evolve any more down the road it's currently going, some sort of strange tap and go quasi-sevens affair devoid of the set piece struggle which makes union the great spectacle it is

Inquitus

I have watched league in the UK, and in Australia, having lived in both countries.

League in Oz is an awesome highly skilled game, State of Origin is test match intensity. The crap they pedal in England under the same name is a pale shade in comparison. I realise that England has the current World Club Champions, but we all know that is a misnomer mainly brought about by the timing of the fixture.

toomevara

Inquitus wrote: »

League in Oz is an awesome highly skilled game, State of Origin is test match intensity. The crap they pedal in England under the same name is a pale shade in comparison. I realise that England has the current World Club Champions,

Fundamentally disagree, may have been true in the past, but superleague XI XII and XIII have easily been the match of the NRL. And the Slew of NRL players plying their trade in the SL when interviewed quite candidly admit its a match for the NRL. Indeed for the last two seasons many big name aussies have struggled with the intensity of the superleague. Still the proof of the pudding will be in the eating at the RLWC this year...

As For World Club champions:

2004 Bradford Bulls
2005 Leeds Rhinos
2006 Bradford Bulls
2007 St Helens
2008 Leeds Rhinos

hmmm not looking good for the NRL

Inquitus

Aye thats why Oz are 1/4 on, then NZ at 4/1 and England at 6/1.

The proof of the pudding will indeed be watching Engalnd massacred again.

JWAD

toomevara wrote: »

Fundamentally disagree, may have been true in the past, but superleague XI XII and XIII have easily been the match of the NRL. And the Slew of NRL players plying their trade in the SL when interviewed quite candidly admit its a match for the NRL. Indeed for the last two seasons many big name aussies have struggled with the intensity of the superleague. Still the proof of the pudding will be in the eating at the RLWC this year...

Sorry, mate but when being interviewed by a journo/pundit fishing for compliments a player will say anything and the journo will write anything. And yes, the RLWC will indeed illustrate the gulf between the two countries' RL. Thats why your national team is coached by an Aussie, your clubs are coached by Aussies and a huge chunk of your clubs are populated by overseas players from Australia, NZ and the Pac Islands. If the best players were there, then maybe you'd have a point but they aren't and you don't ;)

toomevara wrote: »

As For World Club champions:

2004 Bradford Bulls
2005 Leeds Rhinos
2006 Bradford Bulls
2007 St Helens
2008 Leeds Rhinos

"World" Champions? Pull the other one.
All those results prove is that Aussie clubs dont travel well pre-season to the UK and dont like having their summer interrupted. "World" Champions.......lol

toomevara wrote: »

hmmm not looking good for the NRL

NRL is in rude health and the proof is in the arse-kicking the Roos dish out to the GB team time and time again.

Crash

League forum.....thataway ->

Union forum.....here.

Clear enough folks?

Inquitus

crash_000 wrote: »

League forum.....thataway ->

Union forum.....here.

Clear enough folks?

ELV's crash.....t'will all be the same game soon if some have their way. Over zealous modding as usual

JWAD

Snickers Man wrote: »

Good point. The Australians as a nation are hopeless at selling crap. Unlike our American cousins who have the whole world eating Kentucky Fried Chicken and half pounder cheeseburgers, nobody will buy anything from an Aussie unless it's demonstrably worthwhile.

So you've done well with your wines, for example. Classic French grape varieties and modern technology producing similar wine to the classic French wines at an affordable price.

but when you try to peddle something that is undeniably rubbish, the rest of the world doesn't want to know. I talk, of course, of rugby league at which you are the undisputed world masters. But the known world of Rugby League extends to Sydney, Brisbane and the decrepit rust belt of Northern England

First of all, I'm Irish. I might have an Aussie passport as a second but I'm Irish.

Snickers Man wrote: »

Why is this? After all, you've had this as a professional game for over 100 years. You've had it as a game with extremely wealthy media sponsors and backers for more than 20 years. Why have you been SO crap at spreading it even into the traditional heartland of rugby? What are South Africa like at Rugby League? France? Wales?

Why so many RL coaches in successful RU sides both international and 'club'? (and no, they're not all defence coaches)
Would you like me to explain to you why RL is as it is in France? Or how about the 'shamateurism' in Wales when the RU there were paying players (in an amateur game..shock...horror) so they wouldnt switch over to RL and actually make an honest living out of playing the sport?

Snickers Man wrote: »

The only possible answer is that even though it's a simpler game and has lots of "ball in hand" it is such a dumbed-down one-dimensional sport that it is of little appeal to the masses

Know what keeps RU alive abroad? The ex-pat community. RU in many countries is as well known as RL is in Ireland. So your 'masses' example doesnt really wash well with RU.

Snickers Man wrote: »

Now rugby, on the other hand, is growing by leaps and bounds because it is such a great social game to PLAY. And one about which you can get passionate about supporting your local team of misshapen misfits of all sizes

Nobody likes watching 80 minutes of mauling, but the contrast between a tight forward battle and some genuine athleticism in the backs is the great and enduring attraction of Union. These marketing muppets that have inevitably come into the game since it went professional seem to think that if you can take a highlight and repeat it more frequently the game will be better.

No it won't. It will become monotonous and tedious

Utter overreaction. You're reading too many arses in the press like Hugh Farrelly, the gingernut Cronin or Stephen Jones.

Snickers Man wrote: »

These rules are designed to minimise the instances of traditional forward play and promote a more open running game. What that will do is diminish the number of people who will play in the forwards. Instead of eight forwards and seven backs you will have about two or three forwards and 12 or 13 backs. The trouble is that they will have no space to play in

Why does a crowd applaud when a penalty is kicked into touch or run instead of being taken as a 3-pointer?

Snickers Man wrote: »

So we'll reduce the numbers. To say 13 a side. Can't you see where this is going?

Paranoid. Again like that idiot Farrelly.

Snickers Man wrote: »

It's going to a game that nobody has been able to sell outside its traditional heartland. And the reason it has remained popular there is because too many people in northern england want to continue the animosity of a 19th century class struggle and too many people in Australia want to continue an early 20th century identity struggle

If you're going to stick to stereotypes then why not point out heartlands such as Scotland for example where the game is dying because school-leavers arent keeping the game up when they're leave?

Snickers Man wrote: »

Union in Australia is for monarchists; League for Republicans

Yeah and all Leinster fans have double-barrel names and Munster fans are torn between John Deere and Massey Ferguson. Pump out the stereotypes, why dontchya? :rolleyes:

The ELVs dont change the sport that much at all. They most certainly dont turn it into RL. By all means, however, believe all the tripe from the old guard (many of whom never even played openly professionally).
Heaven forbid that a sport actually improves itself or evolves. The delusion that RU is kicking botty 'worldwide' is just that: delusion.
Rest on laurels though. Sit back and expect it all to fall on your lap.

JWAD

crash_000 wrote: »

League forum.....thataway ->

Union forum.....here.

Clear enough folks?

Just pointing out that it is a myth that ELVs turn the sport into RL.

Crash

Yeah but its now gone past that into a discussion of League, or RL vs. RU - which isnt the topic of the thread. K everyone?

toomevara

crash_000 wrote: »

Yeah but its now gone past that into a discussion of League, or RL vs. RU - which isnt the topic of the thread. K everyone?

Spot on, apologies rush a blood to the head...just a point of information for JWAD..I'm Irish...*scurries off to league forum*

Peter B

To be honest I don't know how this turned into a union vs league debate.

Firstly I find that the new rules make the game more like rugby league. You tend to have fewer players commit themselves to the ruck so more players are standing out in the back line. Therefore more rugby league like.

I am not disrespecting league. Rugby union is a different game. I gladly like watching the odd game of league. I just don't want union turning more league like just the same way a badminton player does not want the net lowered, balls used instead of shuttlecocks and bigger rackets.

When people are giving out about the ELVs saying the game will turn more like rugby league, it is not disrespecting to league. Rugby league supporters here are getting offended. Union fans just enjoy the difference between League and Union and would like to keep it that way.

Stev_o

Well maybe if stuff like this happened i might be swayed but still its unlikely

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=X2IqiFlc5LA